Qld to need special permission for 300WM and larger?

[bigrich]

Only a commie would cry about a gun rights group trying to generate media attention about issues impacting gun owners.

Also socialists , greens and animal rights groups. Unfortunately there’s a lot of ignorant, uninformed “anti’s” around these days. If farmers feel they’re abandoned by city/suburban recreational shooters that needs to be addressed ASAP. The more trips I do the more I understand and empathise with people who need firearms as a tool to make a living in the regions. I go out of my way to educate non shooters about such things as well

[Billo]

I will place a bet, that in the future, using this information, they will start deciding what calibres are going to be allowed for hunters. You wait and see. Anybody want to bet me $100?
This why we need an organisation that jumps on this, discredits it and makes a heap of noise and informs it's members that the morons are running the asylum in town. This takes money and time, despite so many shooters expecting somebody else to do all their lobbying for them for free, or having their heads in the sand... a great position to be reamed.

For those interested in what the current QLD Govt is saying on this issue, here are the 2 most recent statements, it couldnt be any clearer.

The minister for Police and Emergency Service has advised there are no plans to ban large calibre firearms by making changes to any laws, regulations, policy or procedures.

The Crisafulli Govt remains absolutely committed to making Queenslanders safer, while being mindful not to punish law abiding firearm owners.

[noneyabussiness]

uh huh... I'm sure 2-3 years ago there was a similar statement over in Western Australiastan... nothing to see here...

Been bitten too many times by these liars... Again, for what they charge a year, with higher membership numbers , they won't even try...

[alexjones]

Only a commie would cry about a gun rights group trying to generate media attention about issues impacting gun owners.

Also socialists , greens and animal rights groups. Unfortunately there’s a lot of ignorant, uninformed “anti’s” around these days. If farmers feel they’re abandoned by city/suburban recreational shooters that needs to be addressed ASAP. The more trips I do the more I understand and empathise with people who need firearms as a tool to make a living in the regions. I go out of my way to educate non shooters about such things as well

Yeah mate exactly. It is disheartening to me to see the division amongst shooters though. You can see it on this forum how so many just can not see the forest from the trees Gun owners are their compliancy are own worst enemy.

[alexjones]

I will place a bet, that in the future, using this information, they will start deciding what calibres are going to be allowed for hunters. You wait and see. Anybody want to bet me $100?
This why we need an organisation that jumps on this, discredits it and makes a heap of noise and informs it's members that the morons are running the asylum in town. This takes money and time, despite so many shooters expecting somebody else to do all their lobbying for them for free, or having their heads in the sand... a great position to be reamed.

For those interested in what the current QLD Govt is saying on this issue, here are the 2 most recent statements, it couldnt be any clearer.

The minister for Police and Emergency Service has advised there are no plans to ban large calibre firearms by making changes to any laws, regulations, policy or procedures.

The Crisafulli Govt remains absolutely committed to making Queenslanders safer, while being mindful not to punish law abiding firearm owners.

Look at you go mate. I have seen you run down liberals on this forum often now you are believing everything they say?

I should not have to explain this to a grown man but Liberals and Labor BOTH lie. All politicians do.

I can't believe you are licking the boot on this one.

[Billo]

I will place a bet, that in the future, using this information, they will start deciding what calibres are going to be allowed for hunters. You wait and see. Anybody want to bet me $100?
This why we need an organisation that jumps on this, discredits it and makes a heap of noise and informs it's members that the morons are running the asylum in town. This takes money and time, despite so many shooters expecting somebody else to do all their lobbying for them for free, or having their heads in the sand... a great position to be reamed.

For those interested in what the current QLD Govt is saying on this issue, here are the 2 most recent statements, it couldnt be any clearer.

The minister for Police and Emergency Service has advised there are no plans to ban large calibre firearms by making changes to any laws, regulations, policy or procedures.

The Crisafulli Govt remains absolutely committed to making Queenslanders safer, while being mindful not to punish law abiding firearm owners.

Look at you go mate. I have seen you run down liberals on this forum often now you are believing everything they say?

I should not have to explain this to a grown man but Liberals and Labor BOTH lie. All politicians do.

I can't believe you are licking the boot on this one.

Mate your middle name must be chicken little, cause the sky is always falling

[alexjones]

I will place a bet, that in the future, using this information, they will start deciding what calibres are going to be allowed for hunters. You wait and see. Anybody want to bet me $100?
This why we need an organisation that jumps on this, discredits it and makes a heap of noise and informs it's members that the morons are running the asylum in town. This takes money and time, despite so many shooters expecting somebody else to do all their lobbying for them for free, or having their heads in the sand... a great position to be reamed.

For those interested in what the current QLD Govt is saying on this issue, here are the 2 most recent statements, it couldnt be any clearer.

The minister for Police and Emergency Service has advised there are no plans to ban large calibre firearms by making changes to any laws, regulations, policy or procedures.

The Crisafulli Govt remains absolutely committed to making Queenslanders safer, while being mindful not to punish law abiding firearm owners.

Look at you go mate. I have seen you run down liberals on this forum often now you are believing everything they say?

I should not have to explain this to a grown man but Liberals and Labor BOTH lie. All politicians do.

I can't believe you are licking the boot on this one.

Mate your middle name must be chicken little, cause the sky is always falling

Yes how silly of me. I forgot how the laws have gotten better in QLD every year since 1990 when they introduced licences. Oh and in 1996 when they molested everyone by stealing their guns. And forcing registration And more molestation in 2002 with pistols. And years later with magazine bans etc etc etc.

Politicians are your best friend and every year the laws get better mate, you are correct.

[Wapiti]

So, please see the link to the video below.

The issues in Qld are from around 13.30, and a detailed explanatrion of the statements made by the boss of Qld Weapons regarding the deliberate f**kery with .300 and up. The topic of this thread and what is being denied by some without experience with it.
I ask that those with powers of comprehension and some attention span, please turn them on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TplbygS3ucI&t=812s

Some pretty damning insight into the perversions and agenda of the current management there.
If you listen to the BS "we have no plans right now to..." you forget about tommorrow.

[perentie]

I have just put in a PTA for a .54 cal Sharps.
See what happens

[Wapiti]

One online interview quoted WL of stating an interest in what they termed current or ex "military" calibres and why people felt the need for them.
54 Sharps would be last of their worries or perversions, I'd imagine. Would they even be aware that it was originally a paper cartridge blackpowder firearm? Probably not.

[bigrich]

One online interview quoted WL of stating an interest in what they termed current or ex "military" calibres and why people felt the need for them.

Now that’s a worry that WLB get it in their head that 7x57, 8x57 , 308, 30-06 and others aren’t warranted for hunting or target shooting. I’m in the process of rebuilding my 308 Mauser into a 7x57 for classic caliber competition. 7x57 is hardly an overly powerful round for hunting either. We need a nra in this country

[alexjones]

Current or ex military calibre? Who doesn't own a smle 303. Can't get more ex military than that.

If this is true than the police are just earning the hate with how stupid they are.

[bigrich]

Current or ex military calibre? Who doesn't own a smle 303. Can't get more ex military than that.

If this is true than the police are just earning the hate with how stupid they are.

as i've gotten older , i've developed a lot more empathy . empathy, just like logic and common sense, is a emotion that helps to understand a situation in it's truth . i haven't had to much to do with the law but have run afoul of it when i was younger. i extended the same courtesy and respect to frontline cops when i've encountered them, as i would to anybody else, and found the majority appreciated it and were human just like me . using a little empathy, i've come to realise cops are members of our society who enforce our laws and have to deal with the worst of our society . they quite often help us at really bad times and try to keep the peace so we can enjoy our lives without fear .

it's the courts and politicians making bad policy that are letting us down . i've had coppers go out of their way to help me out a couple times in my life . their sworn to do a duty to our society , and some believe in what they do . but as is the human condition, there's a few that give the rest a bad reputation. not all coppers agree with the laws they enforce , or the outcomes of court proceedings . but they've sworn a oath to do the job. there's a person in the uniform . what makes me angry is these days members of the ADF don't wear their uniforms in public much cause of harassment from f@ckwit radical lefty protesters. coppers cop crap daily because of the uniform they wear. i've never been a cop , don't know any personally either .

agree or disagree , if firearm owners in this country are to get a better deal we have to unite as a group and build bridges with society . at present it's fractured with a "us vs them" mentality from some JMHO

[Bugman]

Current or ex military calibre? Who doesn't own a smle 303. Can't get more ex military than that.

If this is true than the police are just earning the hate with how stupid they are.

as i've gotten older , i've developed a lot more empathy . empathy, just like logic and common sense, is a emotion that helps to understand a situation in it's truth . i haven't had to much to do with the law but have run afoul of it when i was younger. i extended the same courtesy and respect to frontline cops when i've encountered them, as i would to anybody else, and found the majority appreciated it and were human just like me . using a little empathy, i've come to realise cops are members of our society who enforce our laws and have to deal with the worst of our society . they quite often help us at really bad times and try to keep the peace so we can enjoy our lives without fear .

it's the courts and politicians making bad policy that are letting us down . i've had coppers go out of their way to help me out a couple times in my life . their sworn to do a duty to our society , and some believe in what they do . but as is the human condition, there's a few that give the rest a bad reputation. not all coppers agree with the laws they enforce , or the outcomes of court proceedings . but they've sworn a oath to do the job. there's a person in the uniform . what makes me angry is these days members of the ADF don't wear their uniforms in public much cause of harassment from f@ckwit radical lefty protesters. coppers cop crap daily because of the uniform they wear. i've never been a cop , don't know any personally either .

agree or disagree , if firearm owners in this country are to get a better deal we have to unite as a group and build bridges with society . at present it's fractured with a "us vs them" mentality from some JMHO

Well said. I could not agree more.

[Wapiti]

One online interview quoted WL of stating an interest in what they termed current or ex "military" calibres and why people felt the need for them.

Now that’s a worry that WLB get it in their head that 7x57, 8x57 , 308, 30-06 and others aren’t warranted for hunting or target shooting. I’m in the process of rebuilding my 308 Mauser into a 7x57 for classic caliber competition. 7x57 is hardly an overly powerful round for hunting either. We need a nra in this country

I believe that from what was said and the intention of the suspicion that WLB have is for the current "cool" military calibres like 300WM, 338LAP etc, because of the movies and the books like American Sniper, even the Australia's military sniper rifle calibres.
This is absurd, as the 300WM has been one of the best hunting calibres here and in North America forever, before the military ever realised it existed.
I get that 338Lapua was specifically designed as a snipers cartridge, but why target that and not the other 338's out there? Like the 338-378 and the 338-300RUM, both measurably more powerful though not as inherently accurate.

If allowed to run with this, it might be the case that other cals will be targeted, death by 1000 cuts. Which is why SU-SIFA and others have jumped on it early.

[Wapiti]

Current or ex military calibre? Who doesn't own a smle 303. Can't get more ex military than that.

If this is true than the police are just earning the hate with how stupid they are.

as i've gotten older , i've developed a lot more empathy . empathy, just like logic and common sense, is a emotion that helps to understand a situation in it's truth . i haven't had to much to do with the law but have run afoul of it when i was younger. i extended the same courtesy and respect to frontline cops when i've encountered them, as i would to anybody else, and found the majority appreciated it and were human just like me . using a little empathy, i've come to realise cops are members of our society who enforce our laws and have to deal with the worst of our society . they quite often help us at really bad times and try to keep the peace so we can enjoy our lives without fear .

it's the courts and politicians making bad policy that are letting us down . i've had coppers go out of their way to help me out a couple times in my life . their sworn to do a duty to our society , and some believe in what they do . but as is the human condition, there's a few that give the rest a bad reputation. not all coppers agree with the laws they enforce , or the outcomes of court proceedings . but they've sworn a oath to do the job. there's a person in the uniform . what makes me angry is these days members of the ADF don't wear their uniforms in public much cause of harassment from f@ckwit radical lefty protesters. coppers cop crap daily because of the uniform they wear. i've never been a cop , don't know any personally either .

agree or disagree , if firearm owners in this country are to get a better deal we have to unite as a group and build bridges with society . at present it's fractured with a "us vs them" mentality from some JMHO

Well said. I could not agree more.

I actually think differently as I have got to more understand people and their own personal perversions and agendas.

Police are there to enforce the law, not interpret it as their own personal perversions, fears or political agendas.
It is when they start taking out their own poor attitudes on the public, because they are unhappy with the pointlessness of their jobs and the dissatisfaction their choice of work has brought them, we see the people who are actually the ones who should not have this "job".

I've had police as my direct family members, who realised the pointless political oxygen-thief germs they worked with and left to do a real rewarding profession, and best friends of mine now are police too and working on plans to leave solely because of the money and number-driven agendas they are sick of hearing about and being measured against. I have trusted them with my deepest secrets and they would "help me bury a body" as I expect all my true fiends to be like.

The problem is that when bullies and cowards are given a position where they can use the law against the public, and hide their own agendas behind it, to push around people that are way more valuable to building a country and community than they ever will be, that it is a grave problem.

[bigrich]

Current or ex military calibre? Who doesn't own a smle 303. Can't get more ex military than that.

If this is true than the police are just earning the hate with how stupid they are.

as i've gotten older , i've developed a lot more empathy . empathy, just like logic and common sense, is a emotion that helps to understand a situation in it's truth . i haven't had to much to do with the law but have run afoul of it when i was younger. i extended the same courtesy and respect to frontline cops when i've encountered them, as i would to anybody else, and found the majority appreciated it and were human just like me . using a little empathy, i've come to realise cops are members of our society who enforce our laws and have to deal with the worst of our society . they quite often help us at really bad times and try to keep the peace so we can enjoy our lives without fear .

it's the courts and politicians making bad policy that are letting us down . i've had coppers go out of their way to help me out a couple times in my life . their sworn to do a duty to our society , and some believe in what they do . but as is the human condition, there's a few that give the rest a bad reputation. not all coppers agree with the laws they enforce , or the outcomes of court proceedings . but they've sworn a oath to do the job. there's a person in the uniform . what makes me angry is these days members of the ADF don't wear their uniforms in public much cause of harassment from f@ckwit radical lefty protesters. coppers cop crap daily because of the uniform they wear. i've never been a cop , don't know any personally either .

agree or disagree , if firearm owners in this country are to get a better deal we have to unite as a group and build bridges with society . at present it's fractured with a "us vs them" mentality from some JMHO

Well said. I could not agree more.

I actually think differently as I have got to more understand people and their own personal perversions and agendas.

Police are there to enforce the law, not interpret it as their own personal perversions, fears or political agendas.
It is when they start taking out their own poor attitudes on the public, because they are unhappy with the pointlessness of their jobs and the dissatisfaction their choice of work has brought them, we see the people who are actually the ones who should not have this "job".

I've had police as my direct family members, who realised the pointless political oxygen-thief germs they worked with and left to do a real rewarding profession, and best friends of mine now are police too and working on plans to leave solely because of the money and number-driven agendas they are sick of hearing about and being measured against. I have trusted them with my deepest secrets and they would "help me bury a body" as I expect all my true fiends to be like.

The problem is that when bullies and cowards are given a position where they can use the law against the public, and hide their own agendas behind it, to push around people that are way more valuable to building a country and community than they ever will be, that it is a grave problem.

your absolutely right . there's quite often more than one view/perspective that is correct on any given situation/problem

[bigrich]

One online interview quoted WL of stating an interest in what they termed current or ex "military" calibres and why people felt the need for them.

Now that’s a worry that WLB get it in their head that 7x57, 8x57 , 308, 30-06 and others aren’t warranted for hunting or target shooting. I’m in the process of rebuilding my 308 Mauser into a 7x57 for classic caliber competition. 7x57 is hardly an overly powerful round for hunting either. We need a nra in this country

I believe that from what was said and the intention of the suspicion that WLB have is for the current "cool" military calibres like 300WM, 338LAP etc, because of the movies and the books like American Sniper, even the Australia's military sniper rifle calibres.
This is absurd, as the 300WM has been one of the best hunting calibres here and in North America forever, before the military ever realised it existed.
I get that 338Lapua was specifically designed as a snipers cartridge, but why target that and not the other 338's out there? Like the 338-378 and the 338-300RUM, both measurably more powerful though not as inherently accurate.

If allowed to run with this, it might be the case that other cals will be targeted, death by 1000 cuts. Which is why SU-SIFA and others have jumped on it early.

your probably right about the larger military calibers , but death by a thousand cuts is probably right also .

[bigrich]

was at my local ssaa range yesterday . there was a lot of talk of politics and new WLB rulings and directions. a LOT of ssaa members are becoming very dissatisfied with the lack of support and direction from senior ssaa staff . quite a few have recently signed up with SU . one fella i spoke to believes that SU is pushing misinformation to drum up membership, thankfully he's a small minority. one fella i spoke to shoots large calibers and had some worrying things to say about what he's been through lately with WLB . i'm not going to list specifics as i want to respect this fellas privacy and not out him on social media. firearm owners need to unite under a advocate group that's politically active and can give legal support to LFAO's who've got a raw deal from authorities .

[noneyabussiness]

https://ozgunlobby.com/t/wa-guns-thing- ... ns/4923/16

Lol... ssaa trying to take credit for nothing...

[Wapiti]

An update email to members. I copy/paste it here, for those who won't contribute so are unaware. It's simply for FTI.
Particularly despicable now is some lowly police university know-nothing deciding whether a calibre is "too large" for game in Qld, a range, or an area being hunted.
See below and more to come.

We have credible information that the Queensland Police Service Weapons Licensing Branch (WLB) is planning to restrict “large calibre” rifles, despite not having any legislative basis for doing so.

Members have reported for some time receiving “Please explain” letters whenever they lodged PTAs for rifles in the .338 Lapua Magnum calibre, with WLB citing concern the cartridge was “too large” for range use and excessive for hunting use on the sort of game encountered in QLD.

Worse, this attitude has now spread to other previously acceptable calibres including .300 Winchester Magnum and the venerable (and incredibly versatile) .375 Holland & Holland Magnum cartridge.

Applicants for these calibres have been asked for proof of their long-range (1km+) shooting experience and abilities, despite the .375 H&H not having the range for that and not being used for those purposes anyway and .300 Winchester Magnum not being considered a “large calibre” by most shooting professionals.

There is absolutely nothing in the Weapons Act or Regulations restricting or banning any rifle calibre except .50BMG.

As far as Shooters Union is concerned, all centrefire rifle calibres except .50BMG are acceptable for any recreational or occupational shooting use and it should not be up for debate or interpretation by civil servants with limited firearm knowledge.

Also please remember: These “First and final notices” from WLB are not an official rejection – they are a request for more information. Members who have provided enough information have generally (but not always) had their PTAs processed.

We’ve been given unsatisfactory responses by WLB when we’ve raised this issue and are now working with the Police Minister’s offices – we have been pleased by his response, helped by the literally hundreds of letters and e-mails sent to the Minister by you, our members.

We believe WLB are not giving the Minister the full picture regarding what is going on, and even appear to be doubling down on their attacks on PTA applicants as a result of their shenanigans being exposed – we are seeing an increasing number of people applying for unremarkable centrefire calibres receiving “first and final notices”, because they already own other Category B firearms.

Pagan Firearms in Townsville have put together a very helpful video on applying for PTA applications – and in particular pre-emptively providing the information WLB want – which we encourage you to watch: https://www.facebook.com/paganfirearms/ ... 1499718285

Just to reiterate: We do not accept the state of affairs where all this extra information is required, and we are working to get back to situations back to where it used to be (ie, “hunting/recreational shooting” or “target shooting” being acceptable information on its on), but for now, unfortunately the extra information is required.

[noneyabussiness]

where are those idiots who were saying " nothing's happening " ... People support this mob !!

[bladeracer]

Nothing to do with chambering, but here in Victoria I've had to supply an additional letter with every permit to acquire after my fifteenth CatB firearm explaining why my current firearms are not adequate to fulfill the position of the new firearm I'm buying. I write the letters, the permits get approved with no further question. I think it's a matter of "We asked the question, the licence holder responded, that's all we needed.".

Your post mentions some have been knocked back after supplying the further information - do we know more than that, like the actual reasons for being refused? I know that if I don't send the letter the permit won't get approved, I don't know if it actually gets refused or simply gets ignored as I have always responded.

An update email to members. I copy/paste it here, for those who won't contribute so are unaware. It's simply for FTI.
Particularly despicable now is some lowly police university know-nothing deciding whether a calibre is "too large" for game in Qld, a range, or an area being hunted.
See below and more to come.

We have credible information that the Queensland Police Service Weapons Licensing Branch (WLB) is planning to restrict “large calibre” rifles, despite not having any legislative basis for doing so.

Members have reported for some time receiving “Please explain” letters whenever they lodged PTAs for rifles in the .338 Lapua Magnum calibre, with WLB citing concern the cartridge was “too large” for range use and excessive for hunting use on the sort of game encountered in QLD.

Worse, this attitude has now spread to other previously acceptable calibres including .300 Winchester Magnum and the venerable (and incredibly versatile) .375 Holland & Holland Magnum cartridge.

Applicants for these calibres have been asked for proof of their long-range (1km+) shooting experience and abilities, despite the .375 H&H not having the range for that and not being used for those purposes anyway and .300 Winchester Magnum not being considered a “large calibre” by most shooting professionals.

There is absolutely nothing in the Weapons Act or Regulations restricting or banning any rifle calibre except .50BMG.

As far as Shooters Union is concerned, all centrefire rifle calibres except .50BMG are acceptable for any recreational or occupational shooting use and it should not be up for debate or interpretation by civil servants with limited firearm knowledge.

Also please remember: These “First and final notices” from WLB are not an official rejection – they are a request for more information. Members who have provided enough information have generally (but not always) had their PTAs processed.

We’ve been given unsatisfactory responses by WLB when we’ve raised this issue and are now working with the Police Minister’s offices – we have been pleased by his response, helped by the literally hundreds of letters and e-mails sent to the Minister by you, our members.

We believe WLB are not giving the Minister the full picture regarding what is going on, and even appear to be doubling down on their attacks on PTA applicants as a result of their shenanigans being exposed – we are seeing an increasing number of people applying for unremarkable centrefire calibres receiving “first and final notices”, because they already own other Category B firearms.

Pagan Firearms in Townsville have put together a very helpful video on applying for PTA applications – and in particular pre-emptively providing the information WLB want – which we encourage you to watch: https://www.facebook.com/paganfirearms/ ... 1499718285

Just to reiterate: We do not accept the state of affairs where all this extra information is required, and we are working to get back to situations back to where it used to be (ie, “hunting/recreational shooting” or “target shooting” being acceptable information on its on), but for now, unfortunately the extra information is required.

[noneyabussiness]

I have and known many who have for years gotten approval without so much as a boo from WL...Why has it changed ?? There is no legitimate reason..

[alexjones]

I have and known many who have for years gotten approval without so much as a boo from WL...Why has it changed ?? There is no legitimate reason..

They had a big audit in 2021 with fit and proper persons and genuine reasons being the main finding from the audit. They have started to implement policy changes from that audit. These public servants work quick.

[noneyabussiness]

Yeah, I guess.. Still smells really fishy as that audit is agreeing with a lot of these anti gun mobs and the timing of it is all wrong after wa

[bigrich]

Yeah, I guess.. Still smells really fishy as that audit is agreeing with a lot of these anti gun mobs and the timing of it is all wrong after wa

I agree with you 100%. From what I can gather WLB and public servants are ignoring the legislation and applying their own personal and political views. And that’s flat out wrong

[alexjones]

Yeah, I guess.. Still smells really fishy as that audit is agreeing with a lot of these anti gun mobs and the timing of it is all wrong after wa

I agree with you 100%. From what I can gather WLB and public servants are ignoring the legislation and applying their own personal and political views. And that’s flat out wrong

Correct mate. And if you or I challenge a denied PTA in QCAT we would probably “win” but we can spend 10-20 grand to get that win. So very bitter sweet. A lot of people can't afford to go to court where public servants have endless amounts of tax payers money.

[Bugman]

Yeah, I guess.. Still smells really fishy as that audit is agreeing with a lot of these anti gun mobs and the timing of it is all wrong after wa

I agree with you 100%. From what I can gather WLB and public servants are ignoring the legislation and applying their own personal and political views. And that’s flat out wrong

I think something similar happened in NSW. The head honcho of the Firearms Registry was a person who had a hidden agenda (apparently) against shooters and firearms in general. I think the powers that be ralised their mistake with this person and they were moved on. Other members might remember this and clarify further. The point is, as has been said, overpaid public servants relying on their personal views with regard to decision making instead of making fair decisions based on the current legislation.

[Die Judicii]

I may be "reading between the lines" here, but I noticed something today that could be interpreted in differing ways.
Is it paranoia,, or imagination,, or maybe something tangible ?

Have a look on "Used Guns",,,,,, at the unusually large volume of adverts from Safari Firearms. (9/04/2025)
And note that a very high percentage of those ads are for the very calibers that are being vigorously discussed at the present time.