Sunday thoughts, Realistic NFA Reform

[AussieCapitalist]

Sooo in 2017 there was a total of 15,129 murders and ONLY 10,983 of those were fire armrelated. Mostly handguns.

You just convinced me its ok for anyone to buy a fully automatic firearms and as many hand guns as they want.

Half that number again because that is gang violence. A country of over 300 million people and they have less than 5000 firearm murders a year. That is a pretty good ratio. Crime will always happen.

40000 gun deaths sounds like a lot but when you break it all down it is not that bad at all.

[AussieCapitalist]

One thing Americans do seem to have are a lot of negligent discharges. Nearly 1000 people die a year due to accidents. Idiots with gun safety will always exist I suppose.

[Oldbloke]

I find vthe USA murder rate interesting. Using that statistic above for every 23,000 people there us 1 murder every year. (Aprox)

Where I live the population is 250,000. But searching suggests there is only a murder every 2 years or so.

Man, I'm keen to move the the USA.

[TassieTiger]

Does anyone else get a dejavu feeling ?

[Ziege]

One thing Americans do seem to have are a lot of negligent discharges. Nearly 1000 people die a year due to accidents. Idiots with gun safety will always exist I suppose.

Well simple solution for us, seeing as almost no one has firearms like that in their every day posession, training courses and accreditation, I would happily jump through that minor hoop to own a semi automatic centerfire, but yeah that concern is a non issue to me, seeing as a lot of those if not close to all are likely with bolt guns, lever guns and shotguns, so given we don't have the same issue already tells me it's probably not an issue here.

[AussieCapitalist]

I find vthe USA murder rate interesting. Using that statistic above for every 23,000 people there us 1 murder every year. (Aprox)

Where I live the population is 250,000. But searching suggests there is only a murder every 2 years or so.

Man, I'm keen to move the the USA.

Is that an accurate statistic though? If you break things down in to smaller and smaller regions then some areas have a lot less crime than other areas.You can not compare your small town to a whole country with over 300million people.

[Oldbloke]

Just a small sample. Major providential city.

I doubt it it is about by a factor of 10

[AussieCapitalist]

Well simple solution for us, seeing as almost no one has firearms like that in their every day posession, training courses and accreditation, I would happily jump through that minor hoop to own a semi automatic centerfire, but yeah that concern is a non issue to me, seeing as a lot of those if not close to all are likely with bolt guns, lever guns and shotguns, so given we don't have the same issue already tells me it's probably not an issue here.

Probably the use as well. Americans use guns more often so the likelihood increases as the use rises. And drinking and shooting is not illegal over there so that is probably a factor as well.

[AussieCapitalist]

Just a small sample. Major providential city.

I doubt it it is about by a factor of 10

Well if you do go to america stay away from handguns and fists and feet and you will be fine mate.

[Ziege]

Yeah OB gotta say it's a pretty blindly ignorant comment considering most of those deaths your highlighting are from places where owning a gun is either illegal already or heavily restricted, Chicago, Detroit, Los Angeles, Las Vegas, Sacramento, the greater bay area, New York, Washington/Seattle, and not even remotely exaggerating that they account for such a large percentage of deaths they may as well be the only places murder happens.

And restrictions worse than ours apply in many parts of the USA, Illinois as a state for example it's pretty much completely illegal to fire a centerfire rifle in the entire state. Hunters have to use shotguns and rimfire, so don't act like the USA has open slather on firearms, that same states capital being Chicago has one of the highest murder rates in the USA, so not to do with permissible firearms laws at all sorry Womble.

[Oldbloke]

Just a small sample. Major providential city.

https://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.ns ... ustralia~3

400 murders. 25ml population 1 in 63,500. And that includes homicide. Dpnt know what's included in the yank numbers.

[AussieCapitalist]

Aus=25000000/400=62500

USA=329000000/15100=21934

So I guess its like triple.

[Oldbloke]

Does anyone else get a dejavu feeling ?

Yep

[AussieCapitalist]

I would like to know the break down of the weapons used in Australian murders. I am not sure if that data is released. Maybe a blade would be number 1 then hands and feet.

[womble]

You can calculate all the variables you want into the equation.
The only thing that matters are the numbers on the bottom line.
The only thing that sways policy is that bottom line.

[AussieCapitalist]

You can calculate all the variables you want into the equation.
The only thing that matters are the numbers on the bottom line.
The only thing that sways policy is that bottom line.

That is true I guess because people are to emotional.
Well we know Japan has bad guns laws and High suicide. And America has good gun laws and high suicide. So there is no link between suicide and the tool used to commit it. We should at least be able to acknowledge that.

[Oldbloke]

Yeh, USA has roughly 3 times the murder rate of OZ.

What we don't know is whats included and definitions. For example our stats include manslaughter. We don't know if US figures include that or if there is a legal equivalent.

But cant deny about 2/3rds are gun related in the US.

There are Im sure many reasons why its so high.

[AussieCapitalist]

Womble is correct that people just look at the total figure of 40000 gun deaths and dont see past that number. Same could be said for covid19. Deaths per million population and Belgium,UK,Itatly,Spain etc are worse off than the USA but people just see the total death toll and not look further.

USA is just so frigging big that they will always top statistics both good and bad.

[Ziege]

The vast majority big theirs is street gangs, cartels, mobs, mafia, Yakuza, and all the rest that want a piece of the drug trade. It's not comparable to crimes of passion/murder in the heat of the moment etc. It's all business and street cred to them

[CAVEMAN]

Out of interest Ziege and AussieCapitalist, what would you suggest would be a suitable and realistic reform to the NFA in your view. What could you legitimately see changing?

[Oldbloke]

I would like to know the break down of the weapons used in Australian murders. I am not sure if that data is released. Maybe a blade would be number 1 then hands and feet.

Yes, the data is freely available from the ABS. I've looked in the past. Just down load xls sheets. Easy peasy. One of the problem with these discussions is people rely on internet sites too much. Sites that have already played with the numbers, like say, anti gun sites. You need to look at raw a data from official figures such as government sites like ABS.

I don't really remember but gun related deaths were pretty lowish. (Removing suicide) Drowning was pretty high. No more fishing, swimming, surfing, canoeing, lol

[AussieCapitalist]

Out of interest Ziege and AussieCapitalist, what would you suggest would be a suitable and realistic reform to the NFA in your view. What could you legitimately see changing?

All my views about free reign aside. I would like to see these changes to QLD in the next 10 years which are not to far 'out there".

1. Scrap the registry and PTA system.
2. Self loading rimfire and pump/self loading shotguns to Cat A.
3. Unlimited mag limits
4. Allow 50BMG
5. Suppressors to Cat A

For people in other states I would like appearance laws scrapped and NSW to allow folding stocks.

[AussieCapitalist]

Yes, the data is freely available from the ABS. I've looked in the past. Just down load xls sheets. Easy peasy. One of the problem with these discussions is people rely on internet sites too much. Sites that have already played with the numbers, like say, anti gun sites. You need to look at raw a data from official figures such as government sites like ABS.

I don't really remember but gun related deaths were pretty lowish. (Removing suicide) Drowning was pretty high. No more fishing, swimming, surfing, canoeing, lol

I will go check it out mate.

[Oldbloke]

Also you can't explain the many other anomalies that the FBI do very much have solid and irrefutable evidence of. That and you are disregarding central and eastern Europe greatly, I won't go into detail because I have a 1.5hr drive to work, but let's just say more permissable than most of what you're crapping on about and they gained that in recent times, after losing it, proof that those times are "in the past", With homicide rates as low as ours.

Hell even the elephant in the room, the USA, hasn't actually got that much of a firearm death issue. When it comes to people who procured their firearm legally, went through background checks and so on, they dwindle right down to in some years the hundreds not thousands of people per year, you're trying to throw us in with criminals in your assertions and that's woefully petty. And a firearm death rate of only a few hundred per 400 million ain't bad at all. Once of course you filter out the stuff that isn't related to Lafo and such, you know the suicide that would happen anyway, terrorism that would happen anyway, street gangs, cartels, organised crime, accidental shootings (which are in the total), as well as justifiable homicide, all which don't belong in that statistic. Permissible gun laws have sweet f*** all to do with any of it. Because as you should see, if not being grossly bias and ignorant, is that like here, the vast majority of their gun related issues aren't gun related at all. Especially not related to legal procurement.

Mmmm I thought it was about 10,982 gun related murders per 350ml . And does not include any other deaths such as accidents and suicides

This is a perfect example of fudging the figures. Or was it a typo? A good reason not to rely on any old site on the internet.

[Ziege]

Registry is a waste of time, and is open for misuse,

No reason vetted people shouldn't be allowed semi automatic firearms and pump action shotguns

Abolish PTA system have a nice common sense one like Philippines, gun license allows you to have XYZ amount of guns depending on what you pay to have the licence, 5, 10, 15 and then unlimited (with strict storage conditions)

Guns added when bought, scrap categories except full auto

[Ziege]

Mmmm I thought it was about 10,982 gun related murders per 350ml . And does not include any other deaths such as accidents and suicides

This is a perfect example of fudging the figures. Or was it a typo? A good reason not to rely on any old site on the internet.

The figures I base my view on are the most up to date and reliable the USA produce, and that is direct from the FBI, one such report showed a total of 38+ thousand deaths due to firearms (let it soak in for minute before we go ant further that they have close to 300k deaths from incompetence in medicine and surgery) as said before by capitalist, the over reaching amount of them are from gang related, drug trade related and turf war shootings and suicide, then there is in the vicinity of 1000 accidental discharges/accidents that are also factored in, so we are looking closer to see that there are infact now 30k+ of these deaths now accounted for, infact closer to 35k, so that leaves us with 5k maximum of murders by general pop, but then you also need to factor in how many of those were justifiable homicide, and to keep that in perspective firearms stop between 300,000 and 3,000,000 violent crimes a year in the United state so sayeth the FBI and CDC, who have both done conclusive studies, so, given this you can probably and most likely Say that at least 2k of those deaths were people more or less asking for it.

After you chisel away all the bulls**t, NBC and CBS and so on's lefty bulls**t and misinformation and the roundabout of lefty politicians making up their own flawed and fake stats, you end up with a very small part of what is a much larger population than ours who actually committed murder or killed someone (manslaughter) with a firearm that was a) legally purchased, b) owned by someone who passed background checks and C) was imported or manufactured legally in the United states.

Counting the criminal aspect into the total does nothing for anyone, especially here where even less law abiding people shoot people and even less people are eligible for a firearms license, because those people procure these items despite the law and to spite the law. Only a complete idiot believes that firearm laws stop criminals.

[Oldbloke]

"The figures I base my view on are the most up to date and reliable the USA produce, and that is direct from the FBI, one such report showed a total of 38+ thousand deaths due to firearms"

So, how many murders? 38,000 or 15,000?

[CAVEMAN]

Ziege interesting points, have you ever had access to the use of semi autos? Im kind of curious not for any bad reason just more inquisitive.

[Bugman]

Registry is a waste of time, and is open for misuse,

No reason vetted people shouldn't be allowed semi automatic firearms and pump action shotguns

Abolish PTA system have a nice common sense one like Philippines, gun license allows you to have XYZ amount of guns depending on what you pay to have the licence, 5, 10, 15 and then unlimited (with strict storage conditions)

Guns added when bought, scrap categories except full auto

I need a Pauline Hanson on this one....please explain.
Under what system, procedures or whatever do people become "vetted"

[Oldbloke]

In 2016 Australia had a population of about 24.2 ml .
See attached from the ABS. 36 people killed by firearms in australia in 2016. (Assault by firearm i guess murder). Now i just down loaded this and may have fuked up. But looks like very very few firearm related deaths here. NOTE, suicides not included in above.(nearly 200 drownings)
Do the math in the US 330ml people and 10,000 firearm related murders.

Now not getting into an argument about other deaths. These are the numbers if i got it right.

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