QLD Police - its just not cricket

Questions about Queensland gun and ammunition laws. QLD Weapons Act 1990.

Re: QLD Police - its just not cricket

Post by on_one_wheel » 26 Mar 2023, 9:20 pm

Fionn wrote:
on_one_wheel wrote:Perhaps it would make sense to deny everyone legal representation in ALL cases so as to save costs ... said no one ever, other than perhaps the qld police who's cases are probably so flimsy they wouldn't hold up against a fresh out if law school, legal aid lawyer.
Since when did the police start caring how much Joe Bloggs spends on representation?
Sounds extremely fishy, I'm amazed it's even legal.

Personally I think QLD police have something to hide like an unfair, biased and dishonest system.



QCAT and all CAT's are step one in the legal process, you and the police can appeal the outcome of the case to the Supreme court if you wish, where you will be allowed representation (as will the police) and be liable for your own legal fees and possible costs of the police if you lose.

That's why its so laughable when people cry its a police state, as QCAT gives you a very low cost way to challenge the police's decisions, its pretty much the opposite of a police state.


Sure you can appeal, however the issue appears to be that your not allowed representation.
It's definitely not right, if they're decisions are sound then what's the issue with rolling in with a lawyer?
My bet is they know that in most cases they'd loose.
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Re: QLD Police - its just not cricket

Post by Oldbloke » 26 Mar 2023, 9:35 pm

on_one_wheel wrote:
Fionn wrote:
on_one_wheel wrote:Perhaps it would make sense to deny everyone legal representation in ALL cases so as to save costs ... said no one ever, other than perhaps the qld police who's cases are probably so flimsy they wouldn't hold up against a fresh out if law school, legal aid lawyer.
Since when did the police start caring how much Joe Bloggs spends on representation?
Sounds extremely fishy, I'm amazed it's even legal.

Personally I think QLD police have something to hide like an unfair, biased and dishonest system.



QCAT and all CAT's are step one in the legal process, you and the police can appeal the outcome of the case to the Supreme court if you wish, where you will be allowed representation (as will the police) and be liable for your own legal fees and possible costs of the police if you lose.

That's why its so laughable when people cry its a police state, as QCAT gives you a very low cost way to challenge the police's decisions, its pretty much the opposite of a police state.


Sure you can appeal, however the issue appears to be that your not allowed representation.
It's definitely not right, if they're decisions are sound then what's the issue with rolling in with a lawyer?
My bet is they know that in most cases they'd loose.


Absolutely. Hence they need to stack the odds in their favour.
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Re: QLD Police - its just not cricket

Post by womble » 27 Mar 2023, 2:47 am

:unknown:
Well I just invested 2 minutes in googling and I’m grateful we have qcat.

Probably because I don’t have any money for a lawyer.

Nethertheless FIonnn, my assertions that I live in a police state stand :P

But if I’ve got a senior policeman telling me I’m wrong and then qcat insisting that I’m most certainly wrong…
I’m pretty sure I’m wrong.
Probably not going to take out a second mortgage to be absolutely positively certain I’m wrong.
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Re: QLD Police - its just not cricket

Post by Oldbloke » 27 Mar 2023, 4:33 am

The thing is, when QCAT was set up (including in other states) it was intended that it deal with the average bloke that had a dispute with the bloke down the road over minor matters. Not for when ordinary people up against a state government department. Or the police who have heaps of experience fighting legal cases in the courts.

Clearly the article highlights what is not a level playing field. And not what was initially intended. The QLD Pol are taking advantage of the situation.

And fionn thinks its funny.
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Re: QLD Police - its just not cricket

Post by bigrich » 27 Mar 2023, 4:36 am

on_one_wheel wrote:
Fionn wrote:
on_one_wheel wrote:Perhaps it would make sense to deny everyone legal representation in ALL cases so as to save costs ... said no one ever, other than perhaps the qld police who's cases are probably so flimsy they wouldn't hold up against a fresh out if law school, legal aid lawyer.
Since when did the police start caring how much Joe Bloggs spends on representation?
Sounds extremely fishy, I'm amazed it's even legal.

Personally I think QLD police have something to hide like an unfair, biased and dishonest system.



QCAT and all CAT's are step one in the legal process, you and the police can appeal the outcome of the case to the Supreme court if you wish, where you will be allowed representation (as will the police) and be liable for your own legal fees and possible costs of the police if you lose.

That's why its so laughable when people cry its a police state, as QCAT gives you a very low cost way to challenge the police's decisions, its pretty much the opposite of a police state.


Sure you can appeal, however the issue appears to be that your not allowed representation.
It's definitely not right, if they're decisions are sound then what's the issue with rolling in with a lawyer?
My bet is they know that in most cases they'd loose.


Agreed
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Re: QLD Police - its just not cricket

Post by bigrich » 27 Mar 2023, 4:38 am

Oldbloke wrote:The thing is, when QCAT was set up (including in other states) it was intended that it deal with the average bloke that had a dispute with the bloke down the road over minor matters. Not for when ordinary people up against a state government department. Or the police who have heaps of experience fighting legal cases in the courts.

Clearly the article highlights what is not a level playing field. And not what was initially intended. The QLD Pol are taking advantage of the situation.

And fionn thinks its funny.


I agree with this post also. This is the main point of contention for me
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Re: QLD Police - its just not cricket

Post by Larry » 27 Mar 2023, 6:38 am

I dont think electing Sheriffs or any other law enforcement officer is the answer. In fact I think that path is far more open to corruption and bribery.
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Re: QLD Police - its just not cricket

Post by Fionn » 27 Mar 2023, 2:44 pm

on_one_wheel wrote:
Sure you can appeal, however the issue appears to be that your not allowed representation.
It's definitely not right, if they're decisions are sound then what's the issue with rolling in with a lawyer?
My bet is they know that in most cases they'd loose.


But it not the police's decision to not to allow representation its QCAT, the police have no say in the matter.
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Re: QLD Police - its just not cricket

Post by Fionn » 27 Mar 2023, 3:13 pm

Oldbloke wrote:The thing is, when QCAT was set up (including in other states) it was intended that it deal with the average bloke that had a dispute with the bloke down the road over minor matters. Not for when ordinary people up against a state government department. Or the police who have heaps of experience fighting legal cases in the courts.

Clearly the article highlights what is not a level playing field. And not what was initially intended. The QLD Pol are taking advantage of the situation.

And fionn thinks its funny.


Its rather impressive that you can continuedly be wrong all the time with your arguments.

The name QCAT kind of gives away what it was set up and intended for, the AT in the QCAT stands for Administrative Tribunal, an Administrative tribunals is concerned with executive actions of government.

So yes it was set up for ordinary people to go up against the state government departments or police, so its operating as intended.

It was also never intended to be completely level playing field, as they is no such thing in society. The aim of QCAT is an independent, accessible tribunal that efficiently resolves disputes on a range of matters and provide a quick, inexpensive avenue to resolve disputes between parties and make decisions.

Involving lawyers pretty much goes against the whole purpose of what QCAT was set up to do.

Prior to QCAT, if you wanted to challenge a decision about your firearms licence you would need to take the Police to the magistrates court, which is not a quick, easy or cheap way to resolves disputes and make decisions. But you could at least pay for and take legal representation. Its seems like this is what you would prefer over QCAT.

And yes I find it entertaining to see you argue about something you clearly have no understanding about.
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Re: QLD Police - its just not cricket

Post by womble » 27 Mar 2023, 4:16 pm

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Re: QLD Police - its just not cricket

Post by Oldbloke » 27 Mar 2023, 5:26 pm

I find it astounding that someone who is obviously anti shooter, and only here to stir is still here.
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Re: QLD Police - its just not cricket

Post by animalpest » 27 Mar 2023, 5:42 pm

Fionn wrote:
Oldbloke wrote:The thing is, when QCAT was set up (including in other states) it was intended that it deal with the average bloke that had a dispute with the bloke down the road over minor matters. Not for when ordinary people up against a state government department. Or the police who have heaps of experience fighting legal cases in the courts.

Clearly the article highlights what is not a level playing field. And not what was initially intended. The QLD Pol are taking advantage of the situation.

And fionn thinks its funny.


Its rather impressive that you can continuedly be wrong all the time with your arguments.

The name QCAT kind of gives away what it was set up and intended for, the AT in the QCAT stands for Administrative Tribunal, an Administrative tribunals is concerned with executive actions of government.

So yes it was set up for ordinary people to go up against the state government departments or police, so its operating as intended.

It was also never intended to be completely level playing field, as they is no such thing in society. The aim of QCAT is an independent, accessible tribunal that efficiently resolves disputes on a range of matters and provide a quick, inexpensive avenue to resolve disputes between parties and make decisions.

Involving lawyers pretty much goes against the whole purpose of what QCAT was set up to do.

Prior to QCAT, if you wanted to challenge a decision about your firearms licence you would need to take the Police to the magistrates court, which is not a quick, easy or cheap way to resolves disputes and make decisions. But you could at least pay for and take legal representation. Its seems like this is what you would prefer over QCAT.

And yes I find it entertaining to see you argue about something you clearly have no understanding about.



Actually not all SATs don't allow lawyers. I certainly know that WA does.

And with the spirit of QCAT requiring you to represent yourself, perhaps the Commish themselves should be present and not a delegate. If the Commish can delegate to a Sgt then why couldn't someone delegate to a person who happens to have LLB or more after their name?
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Re: QLD Police - its just not cricket

Post by Fionn » 27 Mar 2023, 7:04 pm

Oldbloke wrote:I find it astounding that someone who is obviously anti shooter, and only here to stir is still here.


I bet you find a lot of things astounding. :lol:
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Re: QLD Police - its just not cricket

Post by Fionn » 27 Mar 2023, 7:12 pm

animalpest wrote:Actually not all SATs don't allow lawyers. I certainly know that WA does.

And with the spirit of QCAT requiring you to represent yourself, perhaps the Commish themselves should be present and not a delegate. If the Commish can delegate to a Sgt then why couldn't someone delegate to a person who happens to have LLB or more after their name?


I well aware of that, you will notice I talked about it in post 4 of this thread in answering your question.

The Commissioner doesn't make the decision, its delegated like many of their functions. Its rather absurd that you think they should be present for every appeal against the police.

There is nothing stopping them delegating to officers who law degrees or even lawyers employed as staff by the police. Just the same as their is nothing stopping someone who is Senior counsel representing themselves against the Police Sargent.
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Re: QLD Police - its just not cricket

Post by animalpest » 27 Mar 2023, 7:33 pm

Fionn wrote:
animalpest wrote:Actually not all SATs don't allow lawyers. I certainly know that WA does.

And with the spirit of QCAT requiring you to represent yourself, perhaps the Commish themselves should be present and not a delegate. If the Commish can delegate to a Sgt then why couldn't someone delegate to a person who happens to have LLB or more after their name?


I well aware of that, you will notice I talked about it in post 4 of this thread in answering your question.

The Commissioner doesn't make the decision, its delegated like many of their functions. Its rather absurd that you think they should be present for every appeal against the police.

There is nothing stopping them delegating to officers who law degrees or even lawyers employed as staff by the police. Just the same as their is nothing stopping someone who is Senior counsel representing themselves against the Police Sargent.


I certainly haven't been "absurd" as I haven't said he should be unless the ordinary person can also delegate to a lawyer to make it fair.

So on one hand you say that lawyers can't be there and now you are saying the Police can have a lawyer acting on behalf of the commish. Ok, so one of my employees is now an SC so he could act for me. :drinks: :lol:
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Re: QLD Police - its just not cricket

Post by Fionn » 27 Mar 2023, 8:06 pm

animalpest wrote:I certainly haven't been "absurd" as I haven't said he should be unless the ordinary person can also delegate to a lawyer to make it fair.

So on one hand you say that lawyers can't be there and now you are saying the Police can have a lawyer acting on behalf of the commish. Ok, so one of my employees is now an SC so he could act for me. :drinks: :lol:


Yes, one of your employees who happens to be a SC/QC could act for you if, you as a company were making the appeal at QCAT.
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Re: QLD Police - its just not cricket

Post by womble » 28 Mar 2023, 2:54 am

Could I take an emotional support lawyer in with me .?
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Re: QLD Police - its just not cricket

Post by womble » 28 Mar 2023, 2:56 am

Can i bring my dog. He doesn’t like police
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Re: QLD Police - its just not cricket

Post by womble » 28 Mar 2023, 3:22 am

Can i bring my mummy
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Re: QLD Police - its just not cricket

Post by bigrich » 28 Mar 2023, 4:38 am

Oh for f@cks sake. Fionn is still going.....
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Re: QLD Police - its just not cricket

Post by Lazarus » 28 Mar 2023, 8:38 am

bigrich wrote:Oh for f@cks sake. Fionn is still going.....


Y'all need to stop feeding that pigeon, it just encourages them, before you know it their sh!t is all over the place.
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Re: QLD Police - its just not cricket

Post by noneyabussiness » 28 Mar 2023, 10:22 am

there is a motto I live by...

NEVER argue with a idiot, only brings you down to their level and they beat you with experience...
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Re: QLD Police - its just not cricket

Post by Oldbloke » 28 Mar 2023, 12:25 pm

noneyabussiness wrote:there is a motto I live by...

NEVER argue with a idiot, only brings you down to their level and they beat you with experience...


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Re: QLD Police - its just not cricket

Post by Wapiti » 09 May 2023, 7:56 pm

The problem with shooters who would think that some who end up in QCAT are ill informed, wrong in their opposition to the decisions of Weapons Licensing or any other reason, is why we are marginalised in the first place.
I'd bet that anyone with those derisive opinions of "shooters" clogging up a court or incorrectly appealing a decision hasn't ever been there.

I personally know, and have helped, fellow primary producers that have had license categories they've safely and practically held for numerous 5-year firearms license periods, suddenly cancelled by bureaucrats who've never experienced their issues with pests and stock, nor most likely EVER been on a farm. I bet that any shooter who agrees with this hasn't either, or has a problem imagining our issues,

These guys have been intimidated by the police, and are terrified of being victimised before, during and after court. I know one personally who has been very nastily treated. They have difficulty representing themselves because of this. having a lawyer present is important in these cases. Most people who have been treated like this are nervous and frightened, and no matter what some lawyer may have prepared for them to say, cannot be expected to be a confident debating team master.

Those who cannot see this, and who openly argue with people who do for all to see online like it's some self-appraising competition, is a big reason that the divide between the farmer and city shooters is widening more and more. Can we trust anyone anymore to stick up for us?
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Re: QLD Police - its just not cricket

Post by mickb » 11 Jul 2023, 7:20 am

QLD police block a lot of justice. I know cops who wouldnt get the jab, were suspended from the QLD police without pay indefinetly it seems( 18 months so far), couldnt even claim their long service leave being technically suspended. The govt has not had the balls to sack them, multiple court cases challenging it and still bogged down. Meanwhile new cops joining no longer even need to get the jab now . :wtf:

So about 900 or so experienced cops are unable to return to their employment, while they try and rush new recruits in( again, who dont need the jab :crazy: )and people are wondering why crime is on the increase. Im more wondering when sanity left the building.
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Re: QLD Police - its just not cricket

Post by womble » 11 Jul 2023, 9:23 am

9 remain suspended, not 900.
The government sacked a heap of them.
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Re: QLD Police - its just not cricket

Post by mickb » 11 Jul 2023, 6:53 pm

womble wrote:9 remain suspended, not 900.
The government sacked a heap of them.


Not sure where you get your facts from mate. Majority werent sacked, there are still a sh1tload on indefinite suspension. I come from a police extended family and two are part of plaintiff lists a lot longer than nine persons. Thats just the ones taking it to court too. If the news is saying its only 9 somewhere on the net is total BS and plain lying.
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Re: QLD Police - its just not cricket

Post by gravel » 11 Jul 2023, 7:05 pm

Not really sure I should be buying into this given my rookie status, but whatever..

Personally I reckon one person vs anything of this nature is too intimidating to promote a fair and reasonable evaluation of the matter at hand. Perhaps an advocate of some sort could be provided to represent joe public, so that they at the least have the feeling that not everyone present is against them. A solicitor, or even a barrister though? Mmmm, those buggers tend to complicate matters more than they simplify them, not to mention costing an arm a leg and a kidney.

As for Fionn, (g'day Fionn), by all means keep him. Every court needs a jester, and every village an idiot. Not saying he's qualified for either role ofc, perhaps with training. As for his prolific output, p'raps he's simply bucking for Half Colonel.
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Re: QLD Police - its just not cricket

Post by Larry » 12 Jul 2023, 6:40 am

They wont sack them as it then makes the numbers look bad. Suspension keeps them on the books but not the payroll best for the gov.
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