Honest query on "Silencers"

[Die Judicii]

Note that I'm not sugar coating it,, I actually used the name "Silencer"

As these were at one stage quite legal to own in Australia (I used to have one myself),,
And now that they are illegal, for whatever reasoning by the authorities, I pose the following question.

Can any member quote from research,, any valid and documented instances, where a silencer was used in Australia in a crime, BEFORE being illegal ??

[Prettybird]

Bit OT, are they used by Australian military at all?

Can't think if a time I've ever seen one in a picture of an Aus Defence Force personnel.

[Chronos]

They are still legal, I've seen quite a few lately.

I think this is how it works, I'm sure someone will correct me.

Technically they are classified as prohibited, as is any firearm they are fitted to. You can apply for a prohibited weapons permit and use them in your pest control duties as long as you have a genuine reason.


And no, as far as I can remember they dont have a history of being used in crimes.

Chronos

[tarnagulla]

I doubt they would be used by the military, if only because they only work with sub-sonic loads. If the cartridge launches a projectile with a muzzle velocity above the speed of sound, there is no benefit?

[Die Judicii]

Bit OT, are they used by Australian military at all?

Can't think if a time I've ever seen one in a picture of an Aus Defence Force personnel.

I am led to believe that they are available in both military and police.
I say this because several years ago, I wrote to the Remington people here in Australia requesting their catalogue as advertised in an Australian shooting magazine.
You can imagine my surprise when it turned up in the post,, and it featured all manner of stuff that you definitely do NOT see in the LGSs.

For instance,, Mod 11-87P (Police semi auto shotguns),, Mod 700P USR (urban sniper rifle) with silencer,, Mod M24A2 Sniper in 7.62 cal with silencer,,
Mod M24A3 Sniper in .338 Lapua with silencer,, and Golden Saber HPJ ammo that is capable of passing through windscreen glass and emerging intact, and continuing on through ASI 1/4 inch laminated safety glass and still penetrate 12 inches deep into a block of gelatin placed yet a further 10 inches past.

You just don't see that sorta stuff in your local gun shop.

When I queried about this catalogue, they just said "Oh, that must have been sent to you by mistake, that's only for the Police and the Army."

Any way, my orig question was not pertaining to police or army,, just wanted to know if there is any documented case of a silencer being used by a crim in Australia before they were made illegal.

[Die Judicii]

I doubt they would be used by the military, if only because they only work with sub-sonic loads. If the cartridge launches a projectile with a muzzle velocity above the speed of sound, there is no benefit?

They do work with higher cal and high velocity.
See my other posting re Remington Catalogue above this post.

[WesleySnipes]

I doubt they would be used by the military, if only because they only work with sub-sonic loads. If the cartridge launches a projectile with a muzzle velocity above the speed of sound, there is no benefit?

It reduces the decible level to a much more comfortable one for the shooter, so less need for hearing protection short term. This is also more safe as it doesn't limit one of your most important senses when carrying a firearm around friendly infantry/civilians and possibly enemy combatants. It also makes it harder for said combatants to pinpoint the location of a shooter using a suppressor as they can only work off the sonic crack.

[carbon_vessel]

The military does use them, not necessarily for the supressive nature, but more as a directional buffer, as longer range shorts are more difficult to locate the shooter due to lower muzzle flash and dust signature ect

[bigfellascott]

They are still legal, I've seen quite a few lately.

I think this is how it works, I'm sure someone will correct me.

Technically they are classified as prohibited, as is any firearm they are fitted to. You can apply for a prohibited weapons permit and use them in your pest control duties as long as you have a genuine reason.


And no, as far as I can remember they dont have a history of being used in crimes.

Chronos

I think Mr Colin Winchester may disagree with you on that one! You are also right in saying they are only a Prohibited item and can be used if you have the correct licenses and permits/conditions etc.

[Blackened]

They are still legal, I've seen quite a few lately.

I think this is how it works, I'm sure someone will correct me.

Technically they are classified as prohibited, as is any firearm they are fitted to. You can apply for a prohibited weapons permit and use them in your pest control duties as long as you have a genuine reason.


And no, as far as I can remember they dont have a history of being used in crimes.

Chronos

I think Mr Colin Winchester may disagree with you on that one! You are also right in saying they are only a Prohibited item and can be used if you have the correct licenses and permits/conditions etc.

can't find any reference to a silencer being used, was one used in his murder?

"As ACT Policing Chief Police Officer Colin Winchester drove to his Deakin home on
10 January 1989, the Canberra suburb was particularly quiet, drowsing in the still,
warm, evening air. But as he stepped from his car at 9.15pm, the drone of
cicadas was smashed by the sound of bullets."

maybe the silencer used did nothing

[Removed dead link]

CHronos

[bigfellascott]

They are still legal, I've seen quite a few lately.

I think this is how it works, I'm sure someone will correct me.

Technically they are classified as prohibited, as is any firearm they are fitted to. You can apply for a prohibited weapons permit and use them in your pest control duties as long as you have a genuine reason.


And no, as far as I can remember they dont have a history of being used in crimes.

Chronos

I think Mr Colin Winchester may disagree with you on that one! You are also right in saying they are only a Prohibited item and can be used if you have the correct licenses and permits/conditions etc.

can't find any reference to a silencer being used, was one used in his murder?

"As ACT Policing Chief Police Officer Colin Winchester drove to his Deakin home on
10 January 1989, the Canberra suburb was particularly quiet, drowsing in the still,
warm, evening air. But as he stepped from his car at 9.15pm, the drone of
cicadas was smashed by the sound of bullets."

maybe the silencer used did nothing

http://www.afp.gov.au/~/media/afp/pdf/w ... ocence.pdf

CHronos

Yep have a look at the firearms used in this link
http://www.afp.gov.au/media-centre/publ ... 999/murder

The Crown alleged that Winchester was shot with PMC-brand ammunition which was fired from a .22 calibre Ruger, 10/22 semi-automatic rifle fitted with a silencer.

[Chronos]

They are still legal, I've seen quite a few lately.

I think this is how it works, I'm sure someone will correct me.

Technically they are classified as prohibited, as is any firearm they are fitted to. You can apply for a prohibited weapons permit and use them in your pest control duties as long as you have a genuine reason.


And no, as far as I can remember they dont have a history of being used in crimes.

Chronos

I think Mr Colin Winchester may disagree with you on that one! You are also right in saying they are only a Prohibited item and can be used if you have the correct licenses and permits/conditions etc.

can't find any reference to a silencer being used, was one used in his murder?

"As ACT Policing Chief Police Officer Colin Winchester drove to his Deakin home on
10 January 1989, the Canberra suburb was particularly quiet, drowsing in the still,
warm, evening air. But as he stepped from his car at 9.15pm, the drone of
cicadas was smashed by the sound of bullets."

maybe the silencer used did nothing

http://www.afp.gov.au/~/media/afp/pdf/w ... ocence.pdf

CHronos

Yep have a look at the firearms used in this link
http://www.afp.gov.au/media-centre/publ ... 999/murder

The Crown alleged that Winchester was shot with PMC-brand ammunition which was fired from a .22 calibre Ruger, 10/22 semi-automatic rifle fitted with a silencer.

Bahahahaha!!! that's pretty embarrassing. taken out with a silenced bunny gun.

If i ever come back as a cop and get taken out by organised crime i want it to be with a .408 Cheytac at 1800 yards BOOM! headshot!

Chronos

[bigfellascott]

I'm pretty sure as a result of that event was the reason that silencers were prohibited. That link I posted was interesting to read.

[1290]

Luckily it was PMC brand and not...... Winchester.


As far as legality goes, nothing is banned, thought the tards like to use that word...... everything, is permissible, silencers, semis, even full autos, however subject to the approval of the minister/delegate or chief commish....obviously some things are more likely to be approved, like a silencer if you're commercial shooting close by residential etc....

[Chronos]

I'm pretty sure as a result of that event was the reason that silencers were prohibited. That link I posted was interesting to read.

yeah interesting reading buy i think they're would be a fair pile of stuff left out

A great example i suppose of what the OP was asking, if indeed it was the catalyst for changes to laws

Chronos

[Prettybird]

The military does use them, not necessarily for the supressive nature, but more as a directional buffer, as longer range shorts are more difficult to locate the shooter due to lower muzzle flash and dust signature ect

Cheers

[tarnagulla]

People, let us not confuse "silencers" with "muzzle brakes". They have totally different functions, and I stand by my original statement that "silencers" as such are only effective with sub-sonic loads. In the unfortunate case of Mr Winchester, the firearm involved was only of .22 rimfire calibre, and thus the report could well have been supressed, depending on the particular ammunition used.

[1290]

People, let us not confuse "silencers" with "muzzle brakes". They have totally different functions, and I stand by my original statement that "silencers" as such are only effective with sub-sonic loads. In the unfortunate case of Mr Winchester, the firearm involved was only of .22 rimfire calibre, and thus the report could well have been supressed, depending on the particular ammunition used.

nor with muscle or even mussel breaks

[Chronos]

People, let us not confuse "silencers" with "muzzle brakes". They have totally different functions, and I stand by my original statement that "silencers" as such are only effective with sub-sonic loads. In the unfortunate case of Mr Winchester, the firearm involved was only of .22 rimfire calibre, and thus the report could well have been supressed, depending on the particular ammunition used.

who mentioned muzzle brakes?

Chronos

[1290]

Dont ruin the fun

[newsteadvic]

They have totally different functions, and I stand by my original statement that "silencers" as such are only effective with sub-sonic loads.

Here are some of our fellows with suppressed M4's:


The new F88 is also going to come with a suppressed option:

Not sure if it is in circulation as yet?

Lots of hunters in the UK and NZ (where they are legal) use suppressors with supersonic loads. There is still benefits with blast and noise although the supersonic projectile crack remains.

The NSW Game Council (before it was disbanded) did create this very useful report:
http://www.shootersandfishers.org.au/fi ... y-2011.pdf

[FuzzyM]

The military definitely use suppressed firearms. 45ACP is subsonic, there are also subsonic 9mm rounds. Our special forces used suppressed sten guns in Vietnam.

[Die Judicii]

Contrary to Tarnagulla's beliefs,, "Silencers/Suppressors DO work on ammo above the subsonic range.
A simple matter of its internal size, shape, and number of baffles.
Get that simple objective achieved and any ammo can be silenced.

A glaring example exists in USA, where some gun shops sell a fitting that is designed to screw onto the barrel, with an external thread that fits most screw on oil filters.
Simply purchase an oil filter, screw it onto the fitting, fire one shot, and BINGO guess what you've got.
The longer and bigger diameter the filter,, the better and more suppression it is capable of.

It aint rocket science.

[Grandpa_Halfdime]

I doubt they would be used by the military, if only because they only work with sub-sonic loads. If the cartridge launches a projectile with a muzzle velocity above the speed of sound, there is no benefit?

Two or three points.
First of all when used on supersonic ammo they tend to completely hide muzzle flash and make it much harder to figure out where the shooter is located.
Secondly, what makes you think that certain groups within the military don't use subsonic ammunition? To begin with the 1911 in .45 is a subsonic as issued, muzzle velocity 893fps, as are .380 (9mm Kurtz) and even the .38 special. There are plenty of things available.
Third, a silencer is more properly called a suppressor. It controls muzzle flash as well as reducing the sound signature. A short time ago at the range my son belongs to a man was shooting a .300 Winchester Magnum and the difference with / without suppressor was impressive. There was no muzzle flash and the rolling thunder sound typically associated with that round was gone. In addition the total noise was less with than without the suppressor.

Almost all special forces groups employ suppressed firearms from handguns to MP5s and other sub-machine guns and up to the .338 which is used for mid-range snipers.

Hope that clears up some misconceptions about Silencers

[AusTac]

Sas cats and other SF still kick around with suppressors in the sand pit, fire and movment in and around structures gets pretty unpleasant without a can

[WesleySnipes]

People, let us not confuse "silencers" with "muzzle brakes". They have totally different functions, and I stand by my original statement that "silencers" as such are only effective with sub-sonic loads. In the unfortunate case of Mr Winchester, the firearm involved was only of .22 rimfire calibre, and thus the report could well have been supressed, depending on the particular ammunition used.

No one brought up muzzle brakes, you did.

And as I said before, a suppressor is still effective at dampening the sound of the explosion made by the primer being hit and the charge being burnt, sub sonic or super sonic makes no difference.

The difference between super sonic and sub sonic is the sonic crack of the projectile as it leaves the barrel, and this obviously can't be suppressed. So while sub sonic loads don't have this issue as the projectile doesn't break the sound barrier, the sound of the charge 'exploding' can always be suppressed regardless of projectile speed.

And yes, even on high power rifles suppressors are useful in bringing the decibel level down to a more confortable position, allowing you to shoot without hearing protection. Even downrange the report of the rifle is much quieter and more difficult to locate the shooter for the reasons already listed.

[KWhorenet]

Google is your friend...

[ebr love]

I believe what Tarnagulla is saying is they don't silence/suppress the ballistic crack when using supersonic ammo making the sound reduction benefit arguable.

With supersonic ammunition the boom of the expanding gases will still be suppressed but the above is correct.

[Boss4b]

This is on the vic police website you can have them as long as you meets there requirements

Am I eligible to apply for a silencer?

Section 57 of the Firearms Act 1996 regulates the possession, carry or use of silencers in Victoria.

To be eligible for a silencer, you must be an employer or employee in one of the occupation fields listed below:

Government Department (i.e. DEPI or DEPI employee);
Licensed Firearms Dealer (includes dealers that only manufacture silencers);
Manufacturer of Silencers;
Professional Hunter;
Person who works as subcontractor for a professional hunting organisation;
Professional Vermin Control Business;
Theatrical Armourer;
Veterinarian;
Wildlife Shelter; and
Zoological Employer
Each application for a silencer permit will be considered on its merits and a determination will be made by the delegate of the Chief Commissioner of Police.

If you are currently employed in any of the above professions and you wish to make an application, please send an email to [email protected] requesting a silencer application form.

Please ensure when submitting an application that all relevant documentation is provided. The submission must be accompanied by a Bank Cheque or Money Order for the current fee made payable to 'Licensing & Regulation Division, Victoria Police'.

[Aster]

Theatrical Armourer;

What to say about that...

Shooters who's hearing would benefit from them are prohibited from having them but they're allowed for props?

Mmmm.