Firearms and Other Acts Amendment Bill 2021

Questions about Victorian gun and ammunition laws. Victorian Firearms Act 1996.

Re: Firearms and Other Acts Amendment Bill 2021

Post by Bugman » 12 Sep 2021, 5:08 pm

Yes I saw that too. Another item that was bandied about here in NSW a while back, was the idea that those of us who reload, should have some sort of recognised training to do so. So far this idea appears to have gone no further.
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Re: Firearms and Other Acts Amendment Bill 2021

Post by Fionn » 12 Sep 2021, 8:53 pm

The NSC is just up to it's same old scare tactics to boost their income.

But most here are blind to this quasi groups motivations or history.

The only change in the law is that a firearm prohibition order would be able to be issued by an inspector rank instead of a superintendent.

An inspector rank is not a junior officer of Victoria Police as the NSC claims.
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Re: Firearms and Other Acts Amendment Bill 2021

Post by ZaineB » 12 Sep 2021, 11:25 pm

unless the NSC actually get a ruling in a court of law and make precedent in law there is nothing gained for anyone, likewise if anyone else makes waves, unless they actually change legal precedent nothing changes.
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Re: Firearms and Other Acts Amendment Bill 2021

Post by bigrich » 13 Sep 2021, 4:39 am

The NSC have defended numerous shooters in court and won from what I can see. The law is the law, it’s the interpretation and implementation of the law in circumstances that is the problem. I myself have contributed to the NSC for the work they do . Is there any other group in this country that is pro active in defending the rights of shooters in court or politics ?
I’m seeing some dark, pessimistic views on this forum at times. I prefer to focus on positives and be optimistic. I’m a damn sight happier......
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Re: Firearms and Other Acts Amendment Bill 2021

Post by Oldbloke » 13 Sep 2021, 7:50 am

bigrich wrote:The NSC have defended numerous shooters in court and won from what I can see. The law is the law, it’s the interpretation and implementation of the law in circumstances that is the problem. I myself have contributed to the NSC for the work they do . Is there any other group in this country that is pro active in defending the rights of shooters in court or politics ?
I’m seeing some dark, pessimistic views on this forum at times. I prefer to focus on positives and be optimistic. I’m a damn sight happier......


100% correct. I'm also a member. SSAA is always quite, same with SFFP.
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Re: Firearms and Other Acts Amendment Bill 2021

Post by Communism_Is_Cancer » 13 Sep 2021, 8:02 am

SSAA as an overall organisation sucks. Individual clubs like Wattle Grove and Illawarra are good.
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Re: Firearms and Other Acts Amendment Bill 2021

Post by bigrich » 13 Sep 2021, 8:42 am

Communism_Is_Cancer wrote:SSAA as an overall organisation sucks. Individual clubs like Wattle Grove and Illawarra are good.


Have you been to wattle grove ?
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Re: Firearms and Other Acts Amendment Bill 2021

Post by Communism_Is_Cancer » 13 Sep 2021, 8:56 am

bigrich wrote:
Have you been to wattle grove ?


Yeah mate. It is the only range I go to. It is the only range in Queensland that allows all legal calibres as I believe the backstop is 3km. 458 lott, 338lapua , 416 barrett etc etc. if it is legal in Queensland you can shoot it there.

$95 a year membership for A/B/H(I think its $80 for just A/B)plus $15 each visit.

It is good to shoot pistol because it does not have any of that silly club nonsense. It is just a straight up range. Shoot your longarms, put up steel animals and shoot metallic silhouette pistol matches.
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Re: Firearms and Other Acts Amendment Bill 2021

Post by Fionn » 13 Sep 2021, 9:47 am

bigrich wrote:The NSC have defended numerous shooters in court and won from what I can see. The law is the law, it’s the interpretation and implementation of the law in circumstances that is the problem. I myself have contributed to the NSC for the work they do . Is there any other group in this country that is pro active in defending the rights of shooters in court or politics ?
I’m seeing some dark, pessimistic views on this forum at times. I prefer to focus on positives and be optimistic. I’m a damn sight happier......


The NSC claim to have defended numerous shooters in court, problem is they claim a lot of nonsense, like in the article listed here when they claim

a relatively junior officer of Victoria Police does not like your ‘behaviour’, you could easily find yourself getting one of Lisa Neville’s new bans.


An inspector rank is not a relatively junior officer by any stretch of the imagination. If your behaviour came to the attention of a inspector level and was that much of a concern they were considering a prohibition notice, I don't think that's a bad thing.

Also unlike what the NSC claim, the decisions made be the inspectors are accountable and reviewable by VCAT.

The NSC also claim
The new laws were introduced into the Victorian State Parliament last week.


Its not a law as the NSC claim, its a bill before parliament, it's not hard to see why the NSC has not won a single court case when they don't even understand the basics.

I can't believe people fall for their garbage and give them money like some people here.

As the saying goes "a fool and their money are easily parted" :lol:
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Re: Firearms and Other Acts Amendment Bill 2021

Post by Adzy » 13 Sep 2021, 5:19 pm

Fionn wrote:The NSC is just up to it's same old scare tactics to boost their income.

But most here are blind to this quasi groups motivations or history.

The only change in the law is that a firearm prohibition order would be able to be issued by an inspector rank instead of a superintendent.

An inspector rank is not a junior officer of Victoria Police as the NSC claims.

So please give us an example of the SSSA doing anything of late to defend Firearm owners ? The NSC are putting their money where there mouth is ! Too many people are terrified of rocking the boat , the time will come when they knock on your door and you will have no one to support you . It’s time to push back or be steamrolled by bureaucrats .
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Re: Firearms and Other Acts Amendment Bill 2021

Post by Fionn » 13 Sep 2021, 6:41 pm

Adzy wrote:So please give us an example of the SSSA doing anything of late to defend Firearm owners ? The NSC are putting their money where there mouth is ! Too many people are terrified of rocking the boat , the time will come when they knock on your door and you will have no one to support you . It’s time to push back or be steamrolled by bureaucrats .


Who is the SSSA?

If you mean the Sporting shooters association (SSA)! I am not an advocate for them, so you're asking the wrong person.

As I said, I think the changes to the law are sensible. So why would I push back?

I don't disagree with any of the proposed changes.
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Re: Firearms and Other Acts Amendment Bill 2021

Post by deye243 » 14 Sep 2021, 2:09 am

Isn't there somewhere where you can view legal documents from a court somehow if there is and someone knows how to access it go and have a search I don't think you'll find NSC has helped anybody but they seem to be very Savvy on taking the credit
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Re: Firearms and Other Acts Amendment Bill 2021

Post by dpskipper » 14 Sep 2021, 12:37 pm

deye243 wrote: I don't think you'll find NSC has helped anybody


Their work in WA on the ruger charger has certainly helped at least 3 people.
https://www.nationalshooting.org.au/rec ... c-charger/
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Re: Firearms and Other Acts Amendment Bill 2021

Post by Oldbloke » 14 Sep 2021, 12:59 pm

Who is doing the most to help shooters?


NSC
Shooters Union
SFFP
SSAA
ADA
Field & Game
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Re: Firearms and Other Acts Amendment Bill 2021

Post by Fionn » 14 Sep 2021, 3:07 pm

deye243 wrote:Isn't there somewhere where you can view legal documents from a court somehow if there is and someone knows how to access it go and have a search I don't think you'll find NSC has helped anybody but they seem to be very Savvy on taking the credit


Yes there are data bases for all of the states with decisions made in VCAT/NCAT/WASAT etc etc.

You won't find NSC in any of them nor any of the cases they talk about running or even the issues they mentioned here that got them banned from the site.
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Re: Firearms and Other Acts Amendment Bill 2021

Post by Fionn » 14 Sep 2021, 3:10 pm

dpskipper wrote:
Their work in WA on the ruger charger has certainly helped at least 3 people.
https://www.nationalshooting.org.au/rec ... c-charger/


They claim that in their own propaganda, but there is no other source to confirm it.

It's not mentioned in the WASAT data base as a case.
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Re: Firearms and Other Acts Amendment Bill 2021

Post by dpskipper » 14 Sep 2021, 3:18 pm

Fionn wrote:
dpskipper wrote:
Their work in WA on the ruger charger has certainly helped at least 3 people.
https://www.nationalshooting.org.au/rec ... c-charger/


They claim that in their own propaganda, but there is no other source to confirm it.

It's not mentioned in the WASAT data base as a case.


They've pursued almost All their legal actions in the relevant state civil tribunal. Are those proceedings recorded in this database you speak of?

And what search terms are you using? By NSC's own admission, they aren't the ones behind the civil proceedings, it's the gun owners themselves. NSC just lends their lawyer's time to help with preparing legal submissions. So I seriously doubt you'll find any paper trail with NSC's name on it, because that's not how they operate. Yes the take the credit for a WACAT win which someone else fronted, but it was their lawyer who helped them.
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Re: Firearms and Other Acts Amendment Bill 2021

Post by InisBineest » 14 Sep 2021, 3:55 pm

I'm trying to look at this fairly neutrally. To save some time, can anyone post evidence of NSC doings that isn't on their own website? That would pretty quickly shut down any argument of whether or not they are actually doing anything.

I'd love to believe they are in fact doing as much as they say they do, but (and I guess here my neutrality ends) I find them hard to fully believe when they engage in the same type of scare tactics that a lot of anti gunners use. There is a time and place for it, but they seem to utilise hype a lot.

Seriously, can anyone post any evidence of what they have done, that isn't from their own website? There must be a record somewhere?
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Re: Firearms and Other Acts Amendment Bill 2021

Post by deye243 » 14 Sep 2021, 4:28 pm

InisBineest wrote:I'm trying to look at this fairly neutrally. To save some time, can anyone post evidence of NSC doings that isn't on their own website? That would pretty quickly shut down any argument of whether or not they are actually doing anything.

I'd love to believe they are in fact doing as much as they say they do, but (and I guess here my neutrality ends) I find them hard to fully believe when they engage in the same type of scare tactics that a lot of anti gunners use. There is a time and place for it, but they seem to utilise hype a lot.

Seriously, can anyone post any evidence of what they have done, that isn't from their own website? There must be a record somewhere?


I agree
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Re: Firearms and Other Acts Amendment Bill 2021

Post by ZaineB » 14 Sep 2021, 6:23 pm

InisBineest wrote:I'm trying to look at this fairly neutrally. To save some time, can anyone post evidence of NSC doings that isn't on their own website? That would pretty quickly shut down any argument of whether or not they are actually doing anything.

I'd love to believe they are in fact doing as much as they say they do, but (and I guess here my neutrality ends) I find them hard to fully believe when they engage in the same type of scare tactics that a lot of anti gunners use. There is a time and place for it, but they seem to utilise hype a lot.

Seriously, can anyone post any evidence of what they have done, that isn't from their own website? There must be a record somewhere?



this is a good litmus test for the claims they make, I am not opposed to the idea, and also am fairly neutral on the subject.
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Re: Firearms and Other Acts Amendment Bill 2021

Post by Fionn » 14 Sep 2021, 6:51 pm

dpskipper wrote:They've pursued almost All their legal actions in the relevant state civil tribunal. Are those proceedings recorded in this database you speak of?


Yes

dpskipper wrote:And what search terms are you using? By NSC's own admission, they aren't the ones behind the civil proceedings, it's the gun owners themselves. NSC just lends their lawyer's time to help with preparing legal submissions. So I seriously doubt you'll find any paper trail with NSC's name on it, because that's not how they operate. Yes the take the credit for a WACAT win which someone else fronted, but it was their lawyer who helped them.


Search yourself, show me any case that is about reclassification of firearms or about Ruger's.

The NSC can't independently verify anything they claim.
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Re: Firearms and Other Acts Amendment Bill 2021

Post by Fionn » 14 Sep 2021, 7:04 pm

InisBineest wrote:I'm trying to look at this fairly neutrally. To save some time, can anyone post evidence of NSC doings that isn't on their own website? That would pretty quickly shut down any argument of whether or not they are actually doing anything.

I'd love to believe they are in fact doing as much as they say they do, but (and I guess here my neutrality ends) I find them hard to fully believe when they engage in the same type of scare tactics that a lot of anti gunners use. There is a time and place for it, but they seem to utilise hype a lot.

Seriously, can anyone post any evidence of what they have done, that isn't from their own website? There must be a record somewhere?


They can't.

The problem with NSC making bogus claims and using scare tactics to get membership funds is they in the process completely discredit themselves.

Remember they made the claim an inspector rank in VicPol is a junior officer, well that's not quite true, they claimed with the changes the decision to issue a firearms prohibition order could be made by a junior officer.

When the bill says it can now be done by an inspector rank. Hardly a junior officer rank.

Do people know what the organisation they were before Phoenixing into the NSC?
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Re: Firearms and Other Acts Amendment Bill 2021

Post by Pudlux » 14 Sep 2021, 8:05 pm

I would say that if you don't believe what they are saying, don't pay their dues and let those of us that think they are helping be happy. Being an anti helps no-one.
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Re: Firearms and Other Acts Amendment Bill 2021

Post by InisBineest » 14 Sep 2021, 8:42 pm

Pudlux wrote:I would say that if you don't believe what they are saying, don't pay their dues and let those of us that think they are helping be happy. Being an anti helps no-one.


To be clear mate, by no means am I anti gun, or anti any group that support LAFOs. But I am anti any group that might ultimately discredit shooters. I'm not saying that that is NSC, but i'm not yet saying it isn't either.

To be even more transparent, I was a member with them for a little under two years, and I left of my own accord for reasons that I won't disclose on a public forum (but i'll happily discuss with anyone if they ask privately). I'm not wanting to bash them, on the surface it looks like they are doing epic work. And they might well be, but I would like to see something more substantial/verifiable to back up their success stories.

If i can see that, i'll put my money where my mouth is and join up once more. As a side, I still financially contribute to a group that I believe is doing a good job for shooters (not SSAA to be clear:P), and as I said, I'll happily join the NSC again if some good evidence can be presented that would back up more than a few of their claims. And hold me too it, I'll post my membership receipt up here if such evidence can be found:) I'm always happy to support a group that does shooters well!
Bergara B-14r, Lithgow No.1 -22lr
WFA1L .223/300blk
BA13 .308


Gone:
Rem700VSF, CZ527FS -.223
CZ527 American .222
PWS Summit, Mossberg802, CZ452FS,455 & 515 Tac, Savage A22R, -22lr
Boito12G
Marlin1895, 45-70
Ruger No.1 308
AlfaProj Carbine .357/38
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Re: Firearms and Other Acts Amendment Bill 2021

Post by cz515 » 15 Sep 2021, 9:08 am

The last NSC thread I remember turned ridiculous when the NSC account itself started abusing members that questioned then re some details they were preen presenting. With threats of cancelling memberships of people.

That sounds look jee insurance where you pay premiums for years and when you ask them a simple question advise you that they are terminating your policy... but still keep the premiums that you have paid every year.

I might have started as a good intention, it might have a few good men and even have some results to speak off... but threatening and aggressive behaviour towards other firearms license holders and shooters is just a dog act.
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Re: Firearms and Other Acts Amendment Bill 2021

Post by on_one_wheel » 15 Sep 2021, 9:42 am

Oldbloke wrote:Who is doing the most to help shooters?


NSC
Shooters Union
SFFP
SSAA
ADA
Field & Game


It would be interesting to somehow get them all into the same room and ask that very question then sit back and watch the debate.

I recon It would look something like this...
:clap: :oops: :lol: :o :roll: :evil:
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