Storing Safe Keys inside the Safe legal?

[TheFirearmEnthusiast]

Hey guys

I hope youse are well

So I've gotta bit of a curved ball......

I bought my safe a while back now
(It's a digital one)
- I bolted it down into the concrete of my house
- I also bolted it to the frame of my house as well to be extra safe
- I placed the safe out of view of everyone in a hidden place of the house
The safe doesn't budge at all
The safe is rock solid
I've even tried to use my whole body weight against it to see if I could move the safe just a tad
The safe doesn't budge at all
(Not even by 1x millimeter)
The safe is rock solid
(Which is so safe, so awesome)
I even have an alarm system
Security doors
The works
I'm extremely safe and cautious
Which is awesome

Regarding the keys....
Can I store my safe keys INSIDE my safe?
That might sound stupid at first
But it's kinda genius
Hear me out

Coz my safe is an electronic safe right?

There are only 2x ways of possibly gaining access into my safe;
Way #1 = either knowing the pin code
or
Way #2 = using the keys to override/bypass the pin code altogether

But I was thinking;
If I throw the keys inside the safe
And then lock the safe with the keys inside everytime
Then the only remaining possible way of getting access into my safe
Would be to know the pin code
(Which no one in the world would know the pin code apart from me)

So
On a practical perspective
Storing the safe keys inside the safe, it may sound stupid at 1st but it's actually a genius idea
It's an extremely secure way of storing my firearms

Coz if thieves ever break into my house when I'm not there
They can spend all eternity looking for my keys around my house
They won't find the keys
As the keys would be in my safe haha

However;
In terms of the law
In terms of police inspections etc

Would that be okay?
Or is that a no-no in terms of the law?
What do you guys reckon?

[CAVEMAN]

Grab a key safe from Bunnings and put it somewhere discreet. Don't forget if your digital keypad goes down you will have a giant locked lump of steel, so you kinda want access to those keys.

https://www.bunnings.com.au/sandleford-combination-wall-mount-key-storage-safe_p4210229

And don't forget unless you have a safe made out of inch thick Bisalloy. Anybody who actually wants to get at them will with a cordless angle grinder in a time that would leave you utterly speechless. The best security is being discreet and don't make them obvious as you already said you have.

[TheFirearmEnthusiast]

Caveman;
Ah
Awesome
Thank you so much for the advice
I will definetely buy that key safe from Bunnings
For $20
Can't go wrong at all!
Awesome!

[duncan61]

I had a safe inspection last year in December and had many things not compliant one of them was ammo storage so I purchased a small Bunnings safe and bolted it to the wall and floor and I keep the key for it in a separate smaller safe in my dresser along with all the bolts and other safe keys and everyone was happy.I have the key for the small key safe on my key ring for the car so if I am out I have the key

[bladeracer]

You will want the keys when the batteries go flat.
But knowing the PIN is not the only way to open an electronic safe.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZohdXRYaWWY

A cordless drill or grinder also work well if you don't care about damaging the safe.

[TheFirearmEnthusiast]

I was actually gonna say Lads

Even if the batteries go flat
That's no problems for me anyway
Coz I've gotta whole heap of spare batteries anyway

But for purely argument's sake;

Do you guys reckon it'd be legal to store the safe keys inside the safe itself or?

[TheFirearmEnthusiast]

But yes
I agree that it'd be more ideal to have the keys outside the safe
Just in case if the digital keypad malfunctions or anything like that
(I hadn't thought of that up until now)

So I'll probably just buy that key safe from Bunnings for $20

[Sergeant Hartman]

Rofl...

you need a large magnet
and hocus pocus
The safe can be opened.

But not that you can have
Lots of batteries, but if the
Battery in the safe is flat you cannot
Open the door to replace the flat
Batteries.... Yep you cannot.

But mate, why not do something
Even more insidious
Leave the keys with your parents house
That way your robber will spend
The whole treat looking for a hidden key
But not know it was never in the house.

Of course you can choose a different spot for the spare keys

[TheFirearmEnthusiast]

Ziad;
Nah
My safes pretty cool
If my keypad batteries go flat
I can change the batteries from the outside of the safe
(Without having to go inside the safe at all)

So technically
If I leave my safe keys inside my safe
If I lock my safe
And if my batteries go flat
No problems
All good
I can change the batteries from the outside

[Sergeant Hartman]

Interesting... your safe must be a good one.. They have thought of everything.

Just confirm unified the plastic battery compartment there is no button that you can press to reset the pin number.

On seriousness, this is a question you probably need to ask the DFO. In your shoes I will be worried about the effects of Finangle's Law on your safe

[duncan61]

Following this thread if you are comfortable having the emergency key in the safe and you can solve the battery issue should it arise you should be fine.I am sure there is no written laws on this and when I worked with the Wapol getting my security up to standard we worked as a team and I did what was requested which surprised them .On 3 visits I had the same policeman and 3 different civilians come out.They were polite and we got the job done to everyones satisfaction.Good luck with it

[TheFirearmEnthusiast]

Ziad;
Yeah
My safes pretty cool
I'm very happy with it
Should've bought a bigger safe though
It says that it can hold up to 12x firearms in it
But I know that in reality, it will only hold around 7x maybe
I'm happy with having 7x firearms to start with though
But I may get more passionate about firearms down the track
In which case, then I'll need to buy more firearms of course
We'll see how we go


Duncan61;
Yeah I mean
I feel very comfortable leaving the keys in the safe
Coz like I mentioned before
If the batteries go flat
I can change the batteries from outside the safe anyway
Only problem I might have though is;
If the keypad ever malfunctions or stops working for whatever reason
Then I'll be stuck outside the safe with the emergency keys inside the safe
I'll probably just listen to caveman's advice
I'll probably just buy the key safe from Bunnings
And I'll leave the keys in there
(Outside of the safe)
Just to be extra safe
Safety is first

[TheFirearmEnthusiast]

The only reason why I wanted to leave my safe keys into the safe itself is because;

I have guests that come stay over at my house sometimes

And even though I was planning on hiding my safe keys to the best of my ability somewhere around the house

I wouldn't want my guests to stumble across my safe keys by accident when I'm away or something

I wanted to safe keys to be as secure as possible

So yeah
I'll just buy that key safe from Bunnings for $20
Such a good, practical, easy and cheap solution for securing the safe keys

Awesome

All good

[Stix]

If keys weren't a useful backup for means of entry, i cant see why they are supplied...

Id love a secondary way of entry to my safes...

How would you go swapping batteries quickly in the advent of a fire, if you wanted to get firearms out quickly...?

Personally, i think leaving anything of value, other than firearms & ammo in respective compartments in a gun safe is anything but genius...but then if im no genius im likely to miss this point altogether...

I dont know what makes you think that a theif breaking in to your house is going to spend ANY amount of time in there than is otherwise necessary, let alone spend all afternoon to ransack the joint looking for keys...

If you did happen to get the contents of the gun safe stolen, i wish you luck in convincing the detective & his senior officers of the genius you are when & if they ask for a key number.

Maybe look the genius section of the firearms storage regs in your state & see what it says...

[TheFirearmEnthusiast]

Stix;
So far
Every single shooter that I've spoken to
They all more or less told me the same thing so far
That they all put their firearms and ammunition in their safe (which is standard of course)
And then they hide the safe keys somewhere in the house

That (to me) is putting your firearms at risk

Coz if someone stumbles across your safe keys
Whether that's guests or thieves or family members or whatever
Then you've just compromised the security of your firearms

That's why I thought
May as well throw the keys in the safe
Close the safe
Lock it up
Its 100% safe and secure
Coz the only way of getting in then would be the pin code

Let me give you an exmaple
Let me give you a hypothetical
What if you're a father
And what if you hide your safe keys behind the toilet let's say (Just as an example)
And then your 5x year old daughter stumbles across the safe keys

That's just plain stupid

That's the point I was trying to make

The best way to keep your firearms safe
Is by securing the keys to the best of your ability of course (In a safe)
Not just hiding them somewhere in the house

Hiding the safe keys somewhere in the house is not safe I don't rekcon

[TheFirearmEnthusiast]

I didn't know that portable key safes existed before Caveman mentioned it

[Sergeant Hartman]

Stick... you don't know sheet.


Jk

Hehehe

[bladeracer]

But yes
I agree that it'd be more ideal to have the keys outside the safe
Just in case if the digital keypad malfunctions or anything like that
(I hadn't thought of that up until now)

So I'll probably just buy that key safe from Bunnings for $20

One of my safes has a power jack and a battery pack that you can plug into it to open it when the internal batteries are flat. But that one requires you to use the four-sided key _plus_ either a second key or the keypad, but without that primary key the safe can't be opened at all, even with the external battery.
Keypads, locks and solenoids can be bought online, so you can add all sorts to make it much harder for you to open the safe. But it won't make it much harder for a thief that simply cuts a hole in the side with a cordless grinder. Or the thief that holds a knife to your child's throat until you open the safe for him - even the most advanced systems can be beaten with this nasty trick.

The magnet trick can be curtailed by adding a second solenoid beside the first one, on the same circuit so they pull in opposite directions.

[TheFirearmEnthusiast]

I should be okay security wise BladeRacer

I mean;
- I live in a pretty safe neighbourhood
- I have security doors
- I have an alarm system
- I have security cameras
- My safe has been bolted both into the concrete of my house as well as being bolted to the frame of my house
- My safe is rock solid
(It doesn't budge at all)

Plus on top of that all
I will now be putting my safe keys into the portable key safe from Bunnings that Caveman recommended earlier in the thread today

I should be A-okay

I don't think there's anything else I can do to make my firearms any safer


Being a shooter comes with great responsibility in Australia I find
You 100% wanna do the right thing
100% you don't want firearms ending up in the wrong hands

We are all responsible for the community's safety

It's something to take seriously

As John F. Kennedy once said:
"Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country!"

[bladeracer]

I was actually gonna say Lads

Even if the batteries go flat
That's no problems for me anyway
Coz I've gotta whole heap of spare batteries anyway

But for purely argument's sake;

Do you guys reckon it'd be legal to store the safe keys inside the safe itself or?

Regarding it being legal, it could be argued either way I guess, but it's not the sort of argument I'd choose to be having if it ended up in court for some reason.

As an aside, keeping anything not directly related to your firearms n your gun safes is not ideal. Going into your safe when you need something always carries the small risk of accidentally leaving the door open or unlocked, it's sensible to limit access to only when you want a firearm.

I have safes with keypads to unlock a manually-operated rotary latch to release the main lock, then you turn the main handle to draw the pins into the door. With the rotary latch it's very easy to forget to turn it back after you lock the main handle, which does not reset the keypad, leaving the door closed but not locked, simply turning the main handle opens it. My "marginally-better" safe uses a primary four-sided key that can't be removed without turning the main handle first. The lock pins around the door means the door either has to be closed to turn the handle, or wide open. With the key attached to my belt, it's virtually impossible to leave this system unlocked.

[bladeracer]

Not me, I don't recommend keeping ammo in a safe with firearms. In Victoria it is only "legal" because of a commissioner's memo that allows it, which can be withdrawn at any time. But too often thieves steal the entire safe and take it somewhere they can cut it open at their leisure, including the ammo compartment. You have effectively stored your ammo and firearms together in that situation.

Ammo needs only be in a locked container, which makes it easy to hide elsewhere, ideally in a different locked room. A mate of mine in Perth installed a steel roller door in the end of the hallway of his house to secure his firearms and ammo, but that was in the seventies and wouldn't comply now in WA, not even for securing empty brass cases.

[TheFirearmEnthusiast]

I think that if you love your country
You'd do anything in your power to make your firearms and ammunition are as safe as possible

Being a firearm owner is a big responsibility I find

I think we all owe it to our country to be as safe as possible in terms of storing our firearms and ammunition

The last thing you want is for your firearms to end up in the wrong hands

[bladeracer]

I think that if you love your country
You'd do anything in your power to make your firearms and ammunition are as safe as possible

Being a firearm owner is a big responsibility I find

I think we all owe it to our country to be as safe as possible in terms of storing our firearms and ammunition

The last thing you want is for your firearms to end up in the wrong hands

I agree that it makes sense to own them responsibly, I don't agree that it needs to be,written in law. They want us to be considered the perpetrators of crime by allowing ourselves to be robbed of our possessions, when we are in fact the victims of robbery that the authorities have dismally failed to protect us from. It's the same as blaming us for being robbed by not locking our homes or vehicles because they allow criminals to control our lives.

Keep all your possessions secure as any sensible person would.

[TheFirearmEnthusiast]

Gun laws are so tricky I find BladeRacer

In the sense that;
As a firearm owner
I would LOVE for our firearm laws to be more lax
(Bringing back the semi-auto's would be fun for example)

But at the same time
If guns are too easily accessible as well
If crazy people can then get their hands on firearms
If problems then arise

That will bite us back in the arse
And ultimately
It will then be us, the law abiding citizens that will pay the price unfortunately

So in a way
I do want more lax laws
But at the same time, I don't want more lax laws lol
Coz I don't want any more further restrictions on us

Gun laws are such a fine balancing act

Like you know those guys at the circus that walk on those extremely slim ropes? Hahaha

That's what it feels like unfortunately

If someone is a fully law abiding citizen though
If someone has had firearms for I don't know
10x years without any problems
I don't see the issue with owning a semi-auto

Go figure

[TheFirearmEnthusiast]

Thanks for your advice by the way Caveman

I have just gone to Bunnings

I have just purchased the "portable key safe"

Took it home

I have just placed my safe keys in there

All good, works perfectly well

Even my safe keys are 100% secure now

(Well as secure as they can be)

Peace of mind is great!

[bladeracer]

Gun laws are so tricky I find BladeRacer

In the sense that;
As a firearm owner
I would LOVE for our firearm laws to be more lax
(Bringing back the semi-auto's would be fun for example)

But at the same time
If guns are too easily accessible as well
If crazy people can then get their hands on firearms
If problems then arise

That will bite us back in the arse
And ultimately
It will then be us, the law abiding citizens that will pay the price unfortunately

So in a way
I do want more lax laws
But at the same time, I don't want more lax laws lol
Coz I don't want any more further restrictions on us

Gun laws are such a fine balancing act

Like you know those guys at the circus that walk on those extremely slim ropes? Hahaha

That's what it feels like unfortunately

If someone is a fully law abiding citizen though
If someone has had firearms for I don't know
10x years without any problems
I don't see the issue with owning a semi-auto

Go figure

Our "more lax laws" worked just fine for decades, we have far more gun crime now than before '96, and the overwhelming majority of it is done with illegally-imported firearms, not those stolen from us. We all owned semi-autos before '96, without any problems at all. My very first firearm was a semi-auto 10/22, as it was for so many kids. My very first shotgun was a Bentley eight-shot pump 12ga, also before I was old enough to vote or drink.

We do not need tighter gun laws, we need better criminal laws and real penalties for those that decide to use firearms for criminal activity. Sort that out and we can get rid of all the gun laws. Stop filling our prisons with traffic and fine offenders, and put real criminals in there. But without real crime what excuse would the Police have for keeping us "safe" with their automatic weapons and body armour...

[Tank]

Are you sure that safe is mounted securely Republican?.......

Blade. Completely agree with the ‘hard justice for crims with firearms’ approach but I’m sorry I don’t want every dick out there owning a firearm....
I’m still coming across knobs who shouldn’t be allowed to play with coloured wooden blocks let alone a gun....We have to have some controls in place I reckon.
Semi autos were great for a lark but didn’t make us better shooters. Personally I don’t really miss em that much. (Cept chasing foxes off the back of the ute....)

I hear where you’re coming from though.

[TheFirearmEnthusiast]

Tank;
My safe has been mounted so securely bro
Bolted it into the concrete of my house
Bolted it to the frame of my house as well
I have an alarm system
I have motion security cameras
I have security doors
My safe is hidden away in the house
My safe keys are now even in a safe of their own
Which that key safe is also hidden away as well
I've truly done everything in my power to make my firearms as secure as possible
It's awesome
No regrets lol


And yeah
I agree with you as well
Coz like I said before
Even though I am extremely pro-gun
In reality
The issue is;
If every tom, dick and Harry has a firearm.
A catastrophe is bound to happen
And then we'll see even more restrictions on us
Which would suck

I honestly do pray that every firearm owner in Australia does do the right thing
This way we can keep enjoying our awesome sport of hunting and target shooting
I pray

[RoginaJack]

"Is it Legal? Could be might not be BUT is it Stupid to keep the keys locked inside the safe, that's the question and what does the Insurance mob think

[bladeracer]

Are you sure that safe is mounted securely Republican?.......

Blade. Completely agree with the ‘hard justice for crims with firearms’ approach but I’m sorry I don’t want every dick out there owning a firearm....
I’m still coming across knobs who shouldn’t be allowed to play with coloured wooden blocks let alone a gun....We have to have some controls in place I reckon.
Semi autos were great for a lark but didn’t make us better shooters. Personally I don’t really miss em that much. (Cept chasing foxes off the back of the ute....)

I hear where you’re coming from though.

Why do we need to keep the recklessly inept from legally owning firearms when we allow them to drink, drive, vote and procreate? Firearms are probably the least amount of damage they could do.