Safe Keys + Unlicensed person in the house

Questions about Victorian gun and ammunition laws. Victorian Firearms Act 1996.

Safe Keys + Unlicensed person in the house

Post by NewShooterGirl » 12 Jan 2020, 11:44 am

Hi everybody
:welcome:

I have a question regarding safe keys... :geek:
From what I read (from previous threads on here) the legislation says that:
“The keys need to be kept securely in a separate room from the container”
I find that wording to be a tad vague.. :crazy:
“The keys need to be kept securely”
What does “securely” mean exactly? :crazy:

If I place my safe keys inside a tool box that has a combination lock on it, in another room, tucked away nicely in a drawer somewhere, is that legally fine and legally enough? :?:
Or does the police expect me to go the extra mile and actually hide the toolbox somewhere in the house as well away from my boyfriend in order to be fully legally compliant? :?:
(As my boyfriend lives with me but he doesn’t have a firearms license)

What I’m trying to say is;
Long story short;
If I place my safe keys inside a tool box (with a combination lock on it)
If my boyfriend knows where that toolbox is
Could I lose my firearms license over that?
Simply due to him knowing where the toolbox is?
Because technically, even if he knows where the toolbox is, even if he works it out one day that my safe keys are in there, he still wouldn’t have “readily access” to my safe keys and my safe as he doesn’t know what the combination is in order to open the tool box. :unknown:

So, simply placing your safe keys inside a tool box with a combination lock on it, tucked away nicely, out of everyone’s sight, in a drawer somewhere (but not necessarily incredibly hidden) and your partner knows where that tool box is. Is that fully legally compliant? :?:

I would hate to lose my firearm license over something so extremely trivial.. on a technicality..... :cry:

I hope someone here can help :D

Cheers :D

:mrgreen: :geek:
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Re: Safe Keys + Unlicensed person in the house

Post by CrackThump » 12 Jan 2020, 12:11 pm

Im in exactly the same position. My partner doesnt have a firearms license and I need to keep those keys secure.

My interpretation of the law was (and this was backed up by the officer who did my safe inspection) keep them reasonably hidden from all unlicensed persons. they didnt necessarily have to be locked up, but for added security, its not a bad idea.

In my case this just meant SOMEWHERE LIKE the bottom drawer of my toolbox under greasy rags, a place that she would NEVER be likely to go.. In your case, and I make no assumptions here, in your makeup bag, or under your "personal hygiene" products, maybe in that secret zipper compartment that all ladies handbags/purses have ...you basically have to take resaonable efforts to put it somewhere that your average person wouldnt go looking.

for the most part, I just keep mine on me at all times, with the car/house keys hanging off my belt.
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Re: Safe Keys + Unlicensed person in the house

Post by CrackThump » 12 Jan 2020, 12:14 pm

*edit* sorry for butting in on this thread, I just realized its VICTORIAN laws.. Im in Tasmania.. Im not sure if storage laws differ by state.

National Firearms Agreement ????? :unknown:
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Re: Safe Keys + Unlicensed person in the house

Post by NewShooterGirl » 12 Jan 2020, 1:41 pm

If I place my safe keys inside my handbag
Then place a little combination pad lock on my handbag zip
To me, that would be constitute as the safe keys being "kept securely"
I dont know if the police would think the same way though

I can either do that;
1) I could either place my safe keys in my handbag and then put a small padlock on it
or
2) I could place my safe keys inside my tool box that has a combination lock on it, tuck away in a drawer somewhere, out of everyone's sight. Out of sight and out of mind.

I was just wondering if I could get in trouble and fail the inspections if my partner knows where the keys are being kept
(even though he doesn't have access to the said keys at all, due to the padlocks etc)

The part of the law is a tad tricky, because whether or not a key is kept "securely" that's kind of open to interpretation :unknown:
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Re: Safe Keys + Unlicensed person in the house

Post by Oldbloke » 12 Jan 2020, 2:08 pm

I wouldnt over analyze it. Just hide them.

Im in the same situation and have a stash. My daughter, who has a license knows my secret in case i get hit by a bus.

The bottom line is if they want them and go searching, eventually they will find them.
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Re: Safe Keys + Unlicensed person in the house

Post by NewShooterGirl » 12 Jan 2020, 2:42 pm

So if I place my safe keys inside my handbag, and then put a small padlock on my handbag zip, I should then be able to pass the police inspections without any issues OldBloke, is that correct?
(if the police question the storage of my keys)

I'm sorry to be a "pest" but the law unfortunately is confusing as it does not specify

The legislation saying: "The keys need to be kept securely"

That could either mean either 1) hiding the keys or 2) having the keys locked up

Which if I place my keys in my handbag and then put a padlock on it,
I guess that achieves both the "hiding" as well as the "locking it up" possible interpretations of the law

Maybe that's the way to go for me if I wanna be completely secure legally :mrgreen:
(Keys in handbag + Padlock on handbag)
Which is no big deal for me, putting a $10 padlock on my handbag, that's easy
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Re: Safe Keys + Unlicensed person in the house

Post by TheFirearmEnthusiast » 12 Jan 2020, 3:11 pm

NewShooterGirl;
I agree with you that the legislation can mean either one of two things (or both)

"Your keys must be kept securely"
That could either mean:
#1 hiding them
or
#2 locking them up

So yeah
If you place your keys in your handbag and then lock up your handbag with a padlock

Then (using logic) you should then be 100% safe

Because you have "hidden your keys"
And plus on top of that, you've "locked them up" as well

That (to me) should be 100% fine
Because if you do both (hiding the keys + locking them up) that to me is a complete fulfilment of the legislation
I don't think the police can ask for more than that at all
:thumbsup:
Last edited by TheFirearmEnthusiast on 12 Jan 2020, 3:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Safe Keys + Unlicensed person in the house

Post by Oldbloke » 12 Jan 2020, 3:23 pm

TBH. I doubt they would ask where you hide them. If they do, re f use to tell them.

PS. The first place i would look for my wifes keys would be all 20 of her hand bags. Oops i mean her hand bag.
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Re: Safe Keys + Unlicensed person in the house

Post by JimTom » 12 Jan 2020, 4:02 pm

Does having the keys on your person constitute keeping the keys securely?
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Re: Safe Keys + Unlicensed person in the house

Post by Sergeant Hartman » 12 Jan 2020, 4:03 pm

Your first idea is not a bad one at all.

The theory is that its hidden and not easily accesible to non licensed people. ofcourse don't tell him where the keys are, but MOST IMPORTANTLY if cops ever come home and you are not there, tell him don't be a good boy and give them the keys or open the safe for them... even if he somehow knows where the keys are.

The cops don't need to know where the keys are hidden, as once you tell them its no longer a hidden spot.
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Re: Safe Keys + Unlicensed person in the house

Post by NewShooterGirl » 12 Jan 2020, 4:29 pm

Thank you for your help everybody :welcome: :mrgreen:

Let me throw a curved ball at you Ziad..

For argument's sake..
Hypothetically...

If I:
1. Go to bunnings
2. Purchase this safe right there for $40
(https://www.bunnings.com.au/sandleford- ... e_p4220419)
3. Place my keys inside of that bunnings safe
4. Then the police rock up to my house unexpected when I'm not there
5. My boyfriend opens the door
6. Then the police asks my boyfriend if he knows exactly where my safe keys are being kept
7. My boyfriend then answers that my keys are inside that bunnings safe in the wardrobe, but he also mentions that he does not have access to the keys at all as he doesn't know what the password is for the bunnings safe

Could I be in trouble then? in that particular scenario?

I guess my question ultimately comes down to this:
Can I be in trouble legally if my boyfriend knows exactly where the keys are located, but doesn't have access to them at all? :unknown:
Last edited by NewShooterGirl on 12 Jan 2020, 4:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Safe Keys + Unlicensed person in the house

Post by NewShooterGirl » 12 Jan 2020, 4:48 pm

If a non-licensed person has access to your keys
Then obviously you've compromised the security of your safe
Then obviously that's against the law
Then obviously there needs consequences
Because non-licensed people should not have access to firearms and ammunition
I fully agree with that logic
I completely agree and understand
We have a certain legal process in place where only licensed people can have access to firearms and ammunition
Fair enough
Whatever

But if a non-licensed person knows exactly where your keys are, but doesn't have access to them at all

Is that legally okay?

That's an interesting pertinent question :geek:
Last edited by NewShooterGirl on 12 Jan 2020, 5:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Safe Keys + Unlicensed person in the house

Post by Archie » 12 Jan 2020, 5:11 pm

Bit late to be helpful now I know, but avoiding this problem is why my safes all have combination locks. Also because I have a terrible habit of losing keys. But with a combo lock, you just don’t tell your partner the code and then you don’t have to worry about it.

Other point is that it’s a great reason to convince your partner to get licenced.

Anyway. If a non licenced person knows where your keys are but can’t access them, then that is fine. I mean, they already know where your guns are - but can’t access them, right? The requirement is to take all reasonable precautions to keep your firearms secure. It’s not to buy a second house to store your safe keys in.
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Re: Safe Keys + Unlicensed person in the house

Post by GQshayne » 12 Jan 2020, 5:16 pm

Go back 5 steps mate. Don't overthink it. What do you need to do???

Have them hidden so no-one knows where they are, or have them secured so that no-one else can access them, even if they know the whereabouts. Either will do.

You can ask questions in regards to firearms legislation until the cows come home, and in many cases there will be no definitive answers. Much of the legislation is poor, so this is what we have to deal with.

Personally, hidden is my preferred option.
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Re: Safe Keys + Unlicensed person in the house

Post by NewShooterGirl » 12 Jan 2020, 5:34 pm

Even if you buy safes with combination locks. You're still left with the same kind of problem Archie. Because all the digital/pin code safes, they all come with physical emergency back up keys nowadays anyway. So if you leave your back up keys laying around everywhere etc, you probably could be charged for that as you've compromised the security of your safe by failing to secure the back up keys. Either safe you choose, either way you go, you will still need to secure/hide some sort of keys regardless anyway unfortunately :cry: :thumbsdown:

I agree with you GQshayne that the legislation is poor and frustratingly vague and that ultimately, there is no definitive answer... Until a policeman one day finds your storage method "a tad questionable" and then it all goes to court where it could kind of go either way. We're left in a terrible situation here lol :cry:

I agree with you GQshayne. I prefer hiding the keys as well. Hiding my keys in my handbang would be good for me as my handbag is with me everywhere I go 24/7. However, if someone steals my handbag one day somehow, then i'm screwed as the keys would be gone with the handbag..

That's why I'd rather either
#1 store my keys in my tool box (which has a combination lock on it)
or
#2 store my keys in that bunnings safe for $40

But if I go with either one of these options, then my partner would know the location of the keys (as it would be quite obvious)

Hence why I was wondering where I stood legally, if it's legally okay for your partner to know exactly where the keys are located even though he has absolutely no access to them at all
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Re: Safe Keys + Unlicensed person in the house

Post by Archie » 12 Jan 2020, 6:19 pm

Fwiw - I have two safes of the same model, both digital combination locks, and neither of them have manual keys. Of course if the batteries go flat then I’ll be stuck opening them with an angle grinder, but they definitely don’t have backup keys. That’s why there is a warning light on them that triggers when there is 12 months worth of power left. Agree that many safes do though.
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Re: Safe Keys + Unlicensed person in the house

Post by Ferrisweil » 12 Jan 2020, 7:03 pm

Just hide the keys and don’t tell anyone. Easy.
Think you’ll find that’s what 99% of people do
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Re: Safe Keys + Unlicensed person in the house

Post by Sergeant Hartman » 12 Jan 2020, 7:21 pm

Remember the KISS principle. Don't over think it, thousands of people are in your place, and if the cops do rock up understand they are usually reasonable people and be nice to them.

Just hide them in a spot that your partner cannot easily find, both the toolbox and the safe option are fine as well.

Remember we are not firearm lawyers so don't hold us to it. But i am surprised it wasn't brought up at your safety course.

Apart from the details of my trolling behavior, how much i spent on firearms in total, i don't think there is anything that my wife doesn't know about me.
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Re: Safe Keys + Unlicensed person in the house

Post by GQshayne » 12 Jan 2020, 7:29 pm

My idea of hiding your keys would not involve a handbag - ever. It can be stolen, and they frequently are. What a pain that would be. And locked boxes and safes are a target if they are visible.

Find a good spot in your home. Think outside the square. Away from the safe, not an obvious hiding spot. In my case, the only thing in that spot is the safe key, nothing else.
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Re: Safe Keys + Unlicensed person in the house

Post by Clem » 12 Jan 2020, 7:47 pm

Image

An accepted method of keeping your key safe and complying with any laws.

There are many different types to choose from.
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Re: Safe Keys + Unlicensed person in the house

Post by NewShooterGirl » 12 Jan 2020, 8:12 pm

If I were to buy a safe with a digital pin code, I think it would be nice to have a spare emergency back up key Archie, just in case if something goes wrong with the keypad in general. Just in case if the wires blow up over time or something. Otherwise yes, not having spare back up keys would be handy. No keys to worry about, hide, or secure. It’d be easier, that's for sure :)

I think I’ll just follow your advices Ferrisweil and Ziad, I’ll just hide my keys and I just won’t tell my partner where the keys are and that’s it. I’ll probably just hide them in my handbag and put a little $10 padlock on it for a little extra protection and security and that’s it. Done.

And that’s right Ziad. During my safety course, which was a couple months ago now.. although the policemen were really nice, they did not mention the safekeeping of keys at all. I guess they just don’t have time to cover everything. Which is understandable :)
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Re: Safe Keys + Unlicensed person in the house

Post by NewShooterGirl » 12 Jan 2020, 8:21 pm

You do have a good point GQshayne, hiding my keys in my handbag sounded good to me. In the sense that my handbag is with me everywhere I go 24/7. It would give me a certain peace of mind knowing that my keys would be with me everywhere I go, however yes, like you said, if my handbag is ever stolen, then that would potentially be a massive issue. I've never had a handbag stolen before, but you never know. I will call the manufacturer of my safe tomorrow to see what the process would be in terms of getting new keys if my keys were to be stolen. If it’s easy and cheap for them to replace the keys then maybe I’ll just store my keys in my handbag. Otherwise I will have to reconsider :) Clem, I don’t think my keys would fit in that little kiddle, my keys are pretty long unfortunately
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Re: Safe Keys + Unlicensed person in the house

Post by Clem » 12 Jan 2020, 8:29 pm

NewShooterGirl wrote::) Clem, I don’t think my keys would fit in that little kiddle, my keys are pretty long unfortunately


There are larger ones available. Personally I would not leave it to chance so I ensure my keys are secure, both for safety and security purposes.

Good luck with whatever you choose to do. :drinks:
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Re: Safe Keys + Unlicensed person in the house

Post by Baronvonrort » 12 Jan 2020, 9:36 pm

Combination locks solve this hassle.

If you own a house then use concrete and get a floor safe.
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Re: Safe Keys + Unlicensed person in the house

Post by Baronvonrort » 12 Jan 2020, 10:13 pm

You can get creative with hiding spots, how many people would think to look in places like this. Obviously you wouldn't do this with a door that could be kicked in or broken to get entry.
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Re: Safe Keys + Unlicensed person in the house

Post by GojiraSteve » 13 Jan 2020, 6:32 am

Holy s**t this thread is an eyeopener.

I'd always interpreted it as having the keys on me (ie same chain as my housekeys/carkeys etc) or within sight was sufficiently secure. If I'm in the house the keys are just about always within arms reach, and if I'm out of the house they're in my pocket.

But I hadn't considered that if the licencing bloke rocks up for a random inspection and I let him in, then proceed to collect my keyring from off the coffee table then I could be done!

I guess i'm shelling out for one of them combination keyboxes then. Seems counterintuitive to implement a system that now houses the keys in the same building as the safe when I'm at work all day, in order to avoid a compliance issue when I'm home and perfectly able to keep my eye on things, but I suppose these are the times we live in.
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Re: Safe Keys + Unlicensed person in the house

Post by TheFirearmEnthusiast » 13 Jan 2020, 7:23 am

GojiraSteve;

I think the issue with the law (in most cases) is that it's kinda really open to interpretation....

If you have a police inspection one day
Then the cop sees you grab the keyring from your coffee table
You're right, you could kinda technically be done for it, if it's the cop's interpretation that you haven't secured your keys properly or enough
Then the whole thing could go to court..
That would be an absolute nightmare..

On the other hand;
You could get another cop who's in a good mood, who's chilled, who's laid back and thinks that your keys from you coffee table is perfectly fine who may not care that much at all
In which case, then you'd be perfectly fine

So it kinda really comes down to interpretation

I think it's best to err on the side of caution

For me, I'd rather not take any risks.....

I bought this portable key safe from bunnings;
https://www.bunnings.com.au/sandleford- ... e_p4210229
Was only $20, why not
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Re: Safe Keys + Unlicensed person in the house

Post by NewShooterGirl » 13 Jan 2020, 8:41 am

Agreed with TheFirearmEnthusiast. It sounds like it's best to go the extra mile and secure your keys adequately for peace of mind. Losing your firearms and potentially getting charged over a "small technicality". It's just not worth it. Either #1 hiding your keys or #2 locking them up, either way sounds fine to me, according to what everyone said on here. If you wanna be extra safe beyond the shadow of a doubt, I guess you could even do both (hiding them + locking them up) :mrgreen: :geek: :welcome:
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Re: Safe Keys + Unlicensed person in the house

Post by CrackThump » 13 Jan 2020, 6:42 pm

NewShooterGirl wrote:You do have a good point GQshayne, hiding my keys in my handbag sounded good to me. In the sense that my handbag is with me everywhere I go 24/7. It would give me a certain peace of mind knowing that my keys would be with me everywhere I go, however yes, like you said, if my handbag is ever stolen, then that would potentially be a massive issue. I've never had a handbag stolen before, but you never know. I will call the manufacturer of my safe tomorrow to see what the process would be in terms of getting new keys if my keys were to be stolen. If it’s easy and cheap for them to replace the keys then maybe I’ll just store my keys in my handbag. Otherwise I will have to reconsider :) Clem, I don’t think my keys would fit in that little kiddle, my keys are pretty long unfortunately


Shootergirl; It may be more of an inconvenience than just getting new keys.

I remember from my safety course the instructor telling us why Firearms Licensing doesnt put our address on the license card , in case it gets lost, then no one knows where you live. otherwise you could be targeted by unscrupulous types for a firearms theft. .. The instructor also said it was a totally redundant idea due to 95% of people keeping firearms license in their purse/wallet right next to drivers license which has... *bingo* your home address on it..

In the case of keeping your safe keys in your handbag, you've just given the lucky recipient of your purse the holy trifecta, they know you have guns, they know your address. AND they have the keys.


eeeech.
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Re: Safe Keys + Unlicensed person in the house

Post by CrackThump » 13 Jan 2020, 6:47 pm

and thank you to the several who posted about the bunnings type combination key safes... I have on occasion thrown my keys (house/car/gun safe) onto my bedside table while Im at home - unsecured when Im not in that room - would be embarrassing and costly to have an inspecting officer see that. or worse, someone accessed the safe without authority.

maybe the little key safe IS the answer....
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