What's a "Public Rd"

[Oldbloke]

In Vic, you can't shoot on or near some public land. Roads, Parks, other state land such as railway lines blah, blah, blah. I think this is mostly well known.

I think it's on and within 100 meters for public roads. (May be corrected on this)

Obviously bitumen rds would be public.

My question is, what is the definition of a "public road"? Is there one?

Two pics attached. Would both be considered "public."?

1.jpg (408.78 KiB) Viewed 7055 times

2.jpg (403.51 KiB) Viewed 7055 times

[womble]

Yes both could be.
Unless they're on private land. Or no public access.

[womble]

Put it this way
If you injure yourself on pic one then yes
If you shoot something on pic one then no

[pomemax]

Its realy complex that question just googled it in nsw the answer raises more questions than answers
Road has been defined as:

'a highway for traffic' - a public road on which all have a right to pass, and
'a right to passage along a certain route and the physical substance supporting the passengers'. [see Hallmann para 6.1]
Road in its legal sense applies to all types of thoroughfares e.g. roads, lanes, pathways. The Roads Act 1993 does not specify any minimum widths, which would distinguish lanes or pathways from other public roads. A site is a road if persons, other than the owner, have a right of passage which cannot be terminated at the will of the owner. Road includes:

the airspace above the surface of the road
the soil beneath the surface of the road, and
any bridge, tunnel causeway, road-ferry, ford or other work or structure forming part of the road.
Roads can be separated into several categories:

Private roads
A road restricted in use to a limited class of person (ie not to all members of the public) or to a limited period of time.

Roads depicted in private subdivision plans dated prior to January 1920 are treated as private roads unless subsequently vested in the council as public road.

The fee of a private road not vested as public road remains with the original landowner - see Right to show frontage.

Public roads
A road opened or dedicated for the free right of passage of the public on foot, in a vehicle, or otherwise, (together with the right to drive stock or other animals along its length) and declared to be a public road for the purposes of the Roads Act 1993.

Crown roads
A public road under the care and control Crown Lands (for the Minister Administering the Crown Lands Act 1989) which remains Crown land. Crown public roads include Crown Portion boundary and reserved roads. These roads cannot be sold. A Crown road can only be dealt with upon alienation from the Crown.

[bladeracer]

If both are open to the public, then they are public roads. If they're on private property then they're not public.
Certainly if they are on public land they are public.
Be aware the "road" very often refers to the entire width of the road reserve, not just the trafficable bit.

[Oldbloke]

[quote="bladeracer"]If both are open to the public, then they are public roads. If they're on private property then they're not public.
Certainly if they are on public land they are public.
Be aware the "road" very often refers to the entire width of the road reserve, not just the trafficable bit.[/quote]

Correct. I believe the foot path is considered part of a 'highway'.

Starting to look like even 4x4 tracks are public roads.?

[bladeracer]

If both are open to the public, then they are public roads. If they're on private property then they're not public.
Certainly if they are on public land they are public.
Be aware the "road" very often refers to the entire width of the road reserve, not just the trafficable bit.[/quote]

Correct. I believe the foot path is considered part of a 'highway'.

Starting to look like even 4x4 tracks are public roads.?

That's how I treat them.

[Fionn]

My question is, what is the definition of a "public road"? Is there one?

A public road is defined under the Road Management Act 2004.

17 What is a public road?
(1) A road is a public road if it is—
(a) a freeway; or
(b) an arterial road; or
(c) declared under section 204(1) of the Local Government Act 1989; or
(d) declared under section 61 or 93H of the Melbourne City Link Act 1995; or
(da) declared under section 143 of the EastLink Project Act 2004; or
(db) the Peninsula Link Freeway; or
(dc) the West Gate Tunnel tollway; or
(e) a road to which subsection (3) applies; or
(f) a non-arterial State road declared under
section 14(1); or
(g) a municipal road declared under
section 14(1).

[bladeracer]

My question is, what is the definition of a "public road"? Is there one?

A public road is defined under the Road Management Act 2004.

17 What is a public road?
(1) A road is a public road if it is—
(a) a freeway; or
(b) an arterial road; or
(c) declared under section 204(1) of the Local Government Act 1989; or
(d) declared under section 61 or 93H of the Melbourne City Link Act 1995; or
(da) declared under section 143 of the EastLink Project Act 2004; or
(db) the Peninsula Link Freeway; or
(dc) the West Gate Tunnel tollway; or
(e) a road to which subsection (3) applies; or
(f) a non-arterial State road declared under
section 14(1); or
(g) a municipal road declared under
section 14(1).

Yep, that makes it clearer

Public Road Definition.JPG (24.25 KiB) Viewed 6956 times

Okay, to Section 17 we stroll.

Public Road Definition 2.JPG (37.09 KiB) Viewed 6956 times

Public Road Definition 3.JPG (96.79 KiB) Viewed 6956 times

Okay, off to Section 14 next...see if you can work it out yourself, I'm off to see if I can find this Register
https://content.legislation.vic.gov.au/sites/default/files/2020-04/04-12aa059%20authorised.pdf

[bladeracer]

https://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/about-vicroads/acts-and-regulations/register-of-public-roads
https://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/-/media/files/documents/utilities/about-vr/acts-and-regulations/register-of-public-roads---part-a-v-2015.ashx?la=en&hash=116BE6FB86F506FF0B5BAFBEA45FCD6C

1173 pages!

[bladeracer]

Hmmm...not finding many of the main roads around my area in that document, even the road I live on.

[bladeracer]

This bit seems to nullify all of the above though.

Public Road Definition 4.JPG (36.17 KiB) Viewed 6952 times

Removing a registered public road from the register does not affect its status as a public highway or the right of public use...doesn't that mean it's still a public road then?

[Oldbloke]

Hmmm...not finding many of the main roads around my area in that document, even the road I live on.

Probably "council rds"

[Fionn]

Hmmm...not finding many of the main roads around my area in that document, even the road I live on.

That link you posted is for roads which the department of transport (formerly called VicRoads) is the road authority for.

The are many other road authorities, such as councils, nation parks etc.

[bladeracer]

Hmmm...not finding many of the main roads around my area in that document, even the road I live on.

That link you posted is for roads which the department of transport (formerly called VicRoads) is the road authority for.

The are many other road authorities, such as councils, nation parks etc.

I think I'll stick with my own definition, unless you want to post links to all the various registers of public roads in Victoria.

[Fionn]

Hmmm...not finding many of the main roads around my area in that document, even the road I live on.

That link you posted is for roads which the department of transport (formerly called VicRoads) is the road authority for.

The are many other road authorities, such as councils, nation parks etc.

I think I'll stick with my own definition, unless you want to post links to all the various registers of public roads in Victoria.

I have no interest in what's a public road or not! I was just answering oldblokes question on what's the definition of a public road.

[bladeracer]

Hmmm...not finding many of the main roads around my area in that document, even the road I live on.

That link you posted is for roads which the department of transport (formerly called VicRoads) is the road authority for.

The are many other road authorities, such as councils, nation parks etc.

I think I'll stick with my own definition, unless you want to post links to all the various registers of public roads in Victoria.

I have no interest in what's a public road or not! I was just answering oldblokes question on what's the definition of a public road.

Of course, and I'm still none the wiser, that's my point
There is a definition, but it requires trawling through other places to find it, and if all the registers have that same disclaimer in them then it seems to be a pointless exercise anyway. Even if you don't find a road listed in these registers, it still doesn't confirm that it isn't a public road as it may simply have been removed from the register but still retain all the properties of being a public road under the Act.

[Fionn]

Of course, and I'm still none the wiser, that's my point
There is a definition, but it requires trawling through other places to find it, and if all the registers have that same disclaimer in them then it seems to be a pointless exercise anyway. Even if you don't find a road listed in these registers, it still doesn't confirm that it isn't a public road as it may simply have been removed from the register but still retain all the properties of being a public road under the Act.

If you want to know if a road is a public road, the easiest way would be ask the local council if they are not the road authority they will tell you who is and then go ask them.

Not sure why you're so concerned about what is or isn't a public road.

[bladeracer]

Of course, and I'm still none the wiser, that's my point
There is a definition, but it requires trawling through other places to find it, and if all the registers have that same disclaimer in them then it seems to be a pointless exercise anyway. Even if you don't find a road listed in these registers, it still doesn't confirm that it isn't a public road as it may simply have been removed from the register but still retain all the properties of being a public road under the Act.

If you want to know if a road is a public road, the easiest way would be ask the local council if they are not the road authority they will tell you who is and then go ask them.

Not sure why you're so concerned about what is it isn't a public road.

Yes, that could work.
Because we are not allowed to shoot within certain distances of "public roads".

[Oldbloke]

Ok. For further clarification and context. I have understood that you cannot shoot within 100 meters of a public road or 250 mates of a dwelling.

I'm talking about hunting on public land. (SF)

Now, seems I may have be wrong. Please feel free to correct me.

Screenshot_20200929-214918_Drive.jpg (213.02 KiB) Viewed 6918 times

The above applies when target shooting on private property or pest destruction on private property using a C classification firearm. So does not apply to me hunting in SF.

However I have discovered you cannot use or carry a loaded firearm in a "public place". (pretty much knew this)

Screenshot_20200929-220206_Drive.jpg (500.33 KiB) Viewed 6918 times

As defined in the summaries offences act

Screenshot_20200929-220819_Drive.jpg (587.02 KiB) Viewed 6918 times

Which I might add, goes on to include the inside of any car.

So my conclusion is I cannot carry or use a loaded firearm on a "public highway, road or street". (nor across)

But I can do so beside one. Provided I'm in SF. And Also on a 4x4 track would be OK. (providing know one is in danger) As its not a highway, road or street.

Opinions?

[Fionn]

Yes, that could work.
Because we are not allowed to shoot within certain distances of "public roads".

Depends on the reason you are shooting. Distance only applies to certain situations.

[Fionn]

So my conclusion is I cannot carry or use a loaded firearm on a "public highway, road or street". (nor across)

But I can do so beside one. Provided I'm in SF. And Also on a 4x4 track would be OK. (providing know one is in danger) As its not a highway, road or street.

Opinions?

Pretty much right, except that a 4x4 track may be a highway (as in the definition of such) and beside it may be road related area which are both public places.

[bladeracer]

So my conclusion is I cannot carry or use a loaded firearm on a "public highway, road or street". (nor across)

But I can do so beside one. Provided I'm in SF. And Also on a 4x4 track would be OK. (providing know one is in danger) As its not a highway, road or street.

Opinions?

Pretty much right, except that a 4x4 track may be a highway and beside it may be road related area which are both public places.

The difficulty with that view is that state forests are also public places, but we are licenced to shoot within them.
We just have to use good judgement to prevent harming other people using the forests. I would think we should be given that same responsibility regarding bush roads and tracks. For me that means not shooting on or around them, far better err toward safety.

[Oldbloke]

"We just have to use good judgement to prevent harming other people using the forests. I would think we should be given that same responsibility regarding bush roads and tracks. For me that means not shooting on or around them, far better err toward safety"

The "public place" says you can't be in a public place with a loaded rifle.

So, many SF are full of old 4x4 tracks. In some cases its a bloody maze. Lol. Does this make it illegal for shooting?

When I go out I'm often crossing or walking along little used 4x4 tracks, like in pic 1. Often that is where sign is easiest to find. I don't empty the rifle magazine. Is that legal? The info suggests no!

Sambar hound teams for example often place shooters on roads waiting for deer to run out. (from my observation a normal way to operate) Does this mean they are not operating within the rules? I've even seen them walking around, with a loaded rifle on bitumen roads!

[Oldbloke]

By the way. State Forrest is not a public place by that definition. Yes, we know it's public but not in this context.

[NTSOG]

G'day All,

I too have been wondering what constitutes a 'public road' in my local state forest. Some of the roads through the forest are named and are clearly well made gravel roads as defined. However there are rough tracks shooting off here and there, probably navigable only in dry weather, and often going only a short distance off the real roads. Who made them and why will never be known. Possibly they were used by those gathering firewood when it was legal to get a permit? There are other tracks marked on government maps - I use MapshareVic [ https://mapshare.vic.gov.au/MapShareVic ... cale=en-AU] - that are shown as lines of dashes in the state forest and state park near where I live. They appear to be [single lane] fire access tracks, but are not named. Again they are pretty rough and not for the family sedan. I ride some of them on my mountain bike, but to call them 'Roads' is pushing it. I never see people on those tracks whereas I occasionally meet people on the named and graded roads in the forest.

I suspect that any judgment in relation to a shooter around/on/over one of the un-named tracks might be subject to the attitude and/or specific knowledge of individual coppers or rangers who come along, hence I will assume those marked by lines of dashes are roads as defined in Law and keep well clear.

Jim

[Member-Deleted]

I went through all this years ago for different reasons, it was to do with riding trail bikes on Vic Recreational Registration.
The answers I got basically said you can’t ride on bitumen but dirt roads were ok... as long as they were ‘gazetted’.
So 4wd tracks were also ok as long as they were shown in a map.
Basically, if it was shown on a 4wd or topo map, whether named or not, it was ok to ride on.
The main reason I went through all this was to make sure if I crashed and hurt myself (as I often did) I was still covered by TAC insurance (that’s the insurance that’s part of your Registration).

The main answer was if it’s on a map and ‘open’ (not gated or stated as closed) it was a public road.

So I guess the 4wd goat tracks can well be at times public.

I surely would want to find out 100% before I carried a firearm near any road. Loaded or not !

[linkoln]

My question is, what is the definition of a "public road"? Is there one?

The old vague laws strike again. It is purposely vague so it can be used against you later on if they think you are doing the wrong thing.
With safes what is a thickness not easily penetrable or what is a lock of sturdy construction, what is not readily accessible. It's 0all set up against us.

[Oldbloke]

My question is, what is the definition of a "public road"? Is there one?

The old vague laws strike again. It is purposely vague so it can be used against you later on if they think you are doing the wrong thing.
With safes what is a thickness not easily penetrable or what is a lock of sturdy construction, what is not readily accessible. It's 0all set up against us.

Yes, very subjective.

Of you go hound hunting in Gippsland hunters walk around wuth loaded rifles on tracks all the time. Never hear of a conviction tho. ........Till it goes pear shaped.

[NTSOG]

G'day Denno,

Thanks for the information, i.e. if it's shown on a map, named or not, then it is a road in terms of the Act. The rough, dead-end tracks that were likely made by wood gathers are not shown on MapshareVic so I will assume they are not roads as defined. [I'm using MapshareVic because it is published by the State Government and the local Firearms Officer said I should use it as my basic reference when hunting in state forests.]

As linkoln says many regulations are stated in vague terms which does give considerable room for hostile or pedantic officials to take action against shooters.

Jim