What's a "Public Rd"

Questions about Victorian gun and ammunition laws. Victorian Firearms Act 1996.

Re: What's a "Public Rd"

Post by mchughcb » 28 Dec 2020, 4:08 pm

Oldbloke wrote:
linkoln wrote:
Oldbloke wrote:My question is, what is the definition of a "public road"? Is there one?

The old vague laws strike again. It is purposely vague so it can be used against you later on if they think you are doing the wrong thing.
With safes what is a thickness not easily penetrable or what is a lock of sturdy construction, what is not readily accessible. It's 0all set up against us.


Yes, very subjective.

Of you go hound hunting in Gippsland hunters walk around wuth loaded rifles on tracks all the time. Never hear of a conviction tho. ........Till it goes pear shaped.


A well known deer journalist was convicted a few years back for walking on a track with a loaded gun and anybody that knows anything about deer hunting in gippsland knew about it.
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Re: What's a "Public Rd"

Post by yoshie » 29 Dec 2020, 7:03 am

If its drawn on a map and its got a name, it's a road
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Re: What's a "Public Rd"

Post by NTSOG » 29 Dec 2020, 9:50 am

G'day yoshie,

I think I will go with Denno's statement:

"Basically, if it was shown on a 4wd or topo map, whether named or not, it was ok to ride on [and thus be covered by TAC insurance]."

If it's a road for the TAC, with or without a name, then surely it must be a road in terms of the Act covering firearm usage and carriage?

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Re: What's a "Public Rd"

Post by Oldbloke » 29 Dec 2020, 10:01 am

A little off topic.
Regarding dogs in NPs. Looked ito this a bit last year.

If dog is IN the car, your fine if its a "through" road. e.g. town to town or farm.

But if its a minor non-through road your a gonna.

Got a feeling this is the same. But it is confusing.

I now just assume minor 4x4 is OK. (Not formed) And since they carry almost no traffic......
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Re: What's a "Public Rd"

Post by straightshooter » 30 Dec 2020, 9:08 am

As others have stated, the relevant acts and regulations are worded such that there is plenty of leeway for varied interpretation.
The simplest way to deal with it at least in NSW is this.
If the road, track, wheel rut or bulldozer scrape can be accessed without impediment, such as a closed gate or something in effect serving the same purpose, by the "public" then it is capable of being portrayed as a public road should something you do attracts the attention of the police.
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Re: What's a "Public Rd"

Post by NTSOG » 30 Dec 2020, 12:28 pm

It seems then that the various State Acts governing firearm usage and carriage have a fair bit of Alice in Wonderland about them - just substitute Police Officer for Humpty Dumpty in the following:

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less."

"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."

"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master - - that's all."

Now I understand why the Mad Hatter went mad and it wasn't just the mercury used to make hats. It was trying to follow Australian gun laws.

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Re: What's a "Public Rd"

Post by Madang185 » 31 Dec 2020, 8:19 am

Its an interesting question that has ramifications in NSW where many public roads as such travel through private land. Probably the same applies in other remote States. The question really is, just how far from the centre line of the "road" does the property become private again? According to the law it is illegal to shoot off the road but certainly not on private property where permission is granted. Many authorities will pass laws BUT will not give "legal advise" when questioned.
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Re: What's a "Public Rd"

Post by Larry » 31 Dec 2020, 8:27 am

Madang185 wrote:Its an interesting question that has ramifications in NSW where many public roads as such travel through private land. Probably the same applies in other remote States. The question really is, just how far from the centre line of the "road" does the property become private again? According to the law it is illegal to shoot off the road but certainly not on private property where permission is granted. Many authorities will pass laws BUT will not give "legal advise" when questioned.


In Victoria the law is that even on private land you can not shoot within 100m of a road.
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Re: What's a "Public Rd"

Post by NTSOG » 31 Dec 2020, 11:51 am

Larry: "In Victoria the law is that even on private land you can not shoot within 100m of a road."

G'day Larry, can you direct me the actual statute regarding this '100m' rule. All I could find when I did a search was this article discussing various laws, beliefs and practices:

http://www.sportingshooter.com.au/gun-l ... hooting-on

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Re: What's a "Public Rd"

Post by Oldbloke » 31 Dec 2020, 12:04 pm

Keep in mind Simon Is based in NSW. States may vary.
My original post related to Victoria. Not yo stifle discussion about other states.
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Re: What's a "Public Rd"

Post by Oldbloke » 31 Dec 2020, 1:00 pm

I think in Vic your a gona if they want to get you. Almost anywhere. Public place could be considered a 4x4 track.
Screen shots from Act and regs.

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Re: What's a "Public Rd"

Post by Larry » 31 Dec 2020, 1:13 pm

Thanks Oldbloke I didnt want to go and start reading all that s**t again. I wasnt exactly sure of the distance the memory is getting a bit tested these days.
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Re: What's a "Public Rd"

Post by NTSOG » 31 Dec 2020, 2:24 pm

G'day All,

Every time I read the regulations governing shooting and firearms I'm reminded of Abbott and Costello's 'Who's on first?' skit.

I'm trying to understand the 100m from a road rule: my small farm is bounded by three roads, two made and one unmade. At the back is bush. Does this 100m rule mean that I may not shoot my rifle unless I am standing a clear 100m inside my legal boundary next to one of those roads? Simply being inside my surveyed boundary and on my private property is not sufficient?

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Re: What's a "Public Rd"

Post by Larry » 31 Dec 2020, 2:34 pm

Pretty much. I interpret the rule to minimise the chance you are seen carrying a gun by passers by, It may have some justification if the police are getting calls from people along the lines of. " I saw a guy with a gun" Then they have to go out and investigate only to find it is a bloke on his own property shooting bunnies ect.
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Re: What's a "Public Rd"

Post by Madang185 » 31 Dec 2020, 3:40 pm

An interesting question that, because so many Victorians shoot in NSW where many publoc roads pass through private property. So the question is just where does the "road" cease to be just that and revert to private property?

Many authorities will pass many laws BUT when you ask for a clarification they " Don't provide legal advise.' I laymans terms they are not going to tell you.
And, we supposedly live in a democracy, really?.
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Re: What's a "Public Rd"

Post by Oldbloke » 31 Dec 2020, 4:11 pm

NTSOG wrote:G'day All,

Every time I read the regulations governing shooting and firearms I'm reminded of Abbott and Costello's 'Who's on first?' skit.

I'm trying to understand the 100m from a road rule: my small farm is bounded by three roads, two made and one unmade. At the back is bush. Does this 100m rule mean that I may not shoot my rifle unless I am standing a clear 100m inside my legal boundary next to one of those roads? Simply being inside my surveyed boundary and on my private property is not sufficient?

Jim


The way i read it, yes.

And a public place includes any where the public can walk/go unrestricted. Soooo, might even include your driveway if gate is not locked.

P.S. I only uploaded a couple of pages. There us a lot more to it.

Bloody confusing and it all seems to be set up to get an easy conviction if they want.

I've read a lot of legislation and its alwsys "messy". But Vic Firearms Act snd Regs seem worse than most.

We just get to vote every few years!!! Lol
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Re: What's a "Public Rd"

Post by Fionn » 31 Dec 2020, 6:11 pm

Larry wrote:In Victoria the law is that even on private land you can not shoot within 100m of a road.


That's not totally correct, the 100m rule only applies to "conduct of sport or target shooting activity on private property" and the conditions that meet that requirement.
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Re: What's a "Public Rd"

Post by Fionn » 31 Dec 2020, 6:14 pm

NTSOG wrote:G'day All,

Every time I read the regulations governing shooting and firearms I'm reminded of Abbott and Costello's 'Who's on first?' skit.

I'm trying to understand the 100m from a road rule: my small farm is bounded by three roads, two made and one unmade. At the back is bush. Does this 100m rule mean that I may not shoot my rifle unless I am standing a clear 100m inside my legal boundary next to one of those roads? Simply being inside my surveyed boundary and on my private property is not sufficient?

Jim


The person who posted about the 100m rules was either misinformed or didn't understand it.

You can perfectly legally shoot within 100m of the road unless your conduct of sport or target shooting activity on private property and meet the requirements that the 100m rule applies.
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Re: What's a "Public Rd"

Post by Fionn » 31 Dec 2020, 6:16 pm

Larry wrote:Pretty much. I interpret the rule to minimise the chance you are seen carrying a gun by passers by, It may have some justification if the police are getting calls from people along the lines of. " I saw a guy with a gun" Then they have to go out and investigate only to find it is a bloke on his own property shooting bunnies ect.


You are interpreting the rule incorrectly, its for setting up a target/sport shooting range with multiple shooters over several hours.
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Re: What's a "Public Rd"

Post by Fionn » 31 Dec 2020, 6:22 pm

Oldbloke wrote:I've read a lot of legislation and its alwsys "messy". But Vic Firearms Act snd Regs seem worse than most.


It not that messy, there are far worse.

The problem is most average people don't understand how to read legislation correctly, so you end up with people misunderstanding what has been written.

The 100m regulation is a good example, its very clear if you know how to read legislation, but you have people think all sorts of odd things because they don't read it correctly. So they see 100m, road and jump to the conclusion that it means you can't shoot within a 100m of a road.
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Re: What's a "Public Rd"

Post by Oldbloke » 31 Dec 2020, 6:55 pm

Fionn wrote:
Oldbloke wrote:I've read a lot of legislation and its alwsys "messy". But Vic Firearms Act snd Regs seem worse than most.


It not that messy, there are far worse.

The problem is most average people don't understand how to read legislation correctly, so you end up with people misunderstanding what has been written.

The 100m regulation is a good example, its very clear if you know how to read legislation, but you have people think all sorts of odd things because they don't read it correctly. So they see 100m, road and jump to the conclusion that it means you can't shoot within a 100m of a road.



I've been corrected. I did the tick and flick. Yes, applies when "sport or target shooting."
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Re: What's a "Public Rd"

Post by NTSOG » 31 Dec 2020, 6:58 pm

Thanks Fionn. You've just saved two of my favourite hunting spots on a neighbouring farm where I sit under trees about 30 yards in from the made roadway overlooking a reedy creek.

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Re: What's a "Public Rd"

Post by Fionn » 31 Dec 2020, 9:14 pm

NTSOG wrote:Thanks Fionn. You've just saved two of my favourite hunting spots on a neighbouring farm where I sit under trees about 30 yards in from the made roadway overlooking a reedy creek.

Jim


If shooting near a road you just need to make sure you're not using the firearm in a dangerous manner.

Section 126 of the Firearms Act is the catch all offence, which basically says you must not carry or use a firearm in dangerous manner. not the correct wording as going from memory as I don't have the correct wording handy on my phone, but close enough.
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Re: What's a "Public Rd"

Post by stihl88 » 16 Aug 2023, 9:50 pm

Oldbloke wrote:I think in Vic your a gona if they want to get you. Almost anywhere. Public place could be considered a 4x4 track.
Screen shots from Act and regs.

Having done similar research on this recently

Regarding "Public Rd" that traverse through State Forests we must also include to your attachment above; Clause (2A) (e), (f) & (g) of The Act where we are exempt or not liable to have committed an "offence" outlined in (1), (1A) & (1B) if when carrying out such activates in areas of Public Place we have been authorised and have the appropriate licenses for i.e. Hunting under a Game License in State Forest.

Further to this I'm unable to find anything in relevant Acts and Regs that prevents us from shooting in the "vicinity" of a Road in areas outlined in Clause (2A) (e), (f) & (g).

As others have mentioned I think it's safe to say that the 100m from a road exclusion zone is for Private Property only and not applicable to Public Place (Crown Land/State Forest).

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Re: What's a "Public Rd"

Post by JohnV » 17 Aug 2023, 1:17 pm

This is a very complex and confusing issue and I have battled with the same questions for years .
The problem is if you are in the bush and on or near a road , track , trail , whatever it is almost impossible to tell what it's true classification is .
Even on private properties there can be tracks , trails and roads going through that are classified as public access . Without a massive database at your fingertips to check every track and roads classification how would you know .
So my approach to teh problem has been just use common sense . If the road has a name and a street sign it's definitely a public road .
If a road going through a private property services the access to several other properties , it's a public road .
If the track stays on a single property and stays within that property your pretty safe to shoot near that road or spotlight along that road with normal safe backstop considerations and avoiding any homesteads etc as long as it's a safe distance away from the roads carrying any public vehicles . When spot lighting , where you shine your light is just as important , don't light up the owners or the neighbors house as it can cause problems . You can't trust Google earth or maps as to what road is private or public .
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Re: What's a "Public Rd"

Post by Fionn » 17 Aug 2023, 10:05 pm

[quote="stihl88"]As others have mentioned I think it's safe to say that the 100m from a road exclusion zone is for Private Property only and not applicable to Public Place (Crown Land/State Forest).

100m from a road only applies to "conduct of sport or target shooting activity on private property" nothing else, but your correct it doesn't apply to crown land.
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Re: What's a "Public Rd"

Post by Fionn » 17 Aug 2023, 10:09 pm

JohnV wrote:This is a very complex and confusing issue and I have battled with the same questions for years .
The problem is if you are in the bush and on or near a road , track , trail , whatever it is almost impossible to tell what it's true classification is .
Even on private properties there can be tracks , trails and roads going through that are classified as public access . Without a massive database at your fingertips to check every track and roads classification how would you know .
So my approach to teh problem has been just use common sense . If the road has a name and a street sign it's definitely a public road .
If a road going through a private property services the access to several other properties , it's a public road .
If the track stays on a single property and stays within that property your pretty safe to shoot near that road or spotlight along that road with normal safe backstop considerations and avoiding any homesteads etc as long as it's a safe distance away from the roads carrying any public vehicles . When spot lighting , where you shine your light is just as important , don't light up the owners or the neighbors house as it can cause problems . You can't trust Google earth or maps as to what road is private or public .


Pretty simple in Victoria, if hunting and on a road, get out of your vehicle and off the road and you can hunt.

What is a road? if its public land and you can drive on it and it seems a like track/road then assume its a road. It may not be, but assume it is. Simples.
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Re: What's a "Public Rd"

Post by JohnV » 18 Aug 2023, 9:17 am

It's not so simple on private property as there is many rights of way to other properties , public roads that go through private land , stock routes that may be within the property boundary that there is a right of way to that stock route that is technically a public road , track , trail but you think it's just a farm track and technically it's not . However if you stay within the private property boundary and avoid the obvious public roads servicing other properties your pretty safe . A place where I hunted for many years I found a small stock route TSR R33361 that was fully within the property and the owner never knew about it . So any track leading to that stock route was a public road and I spotlighted all the tracks many times . So to answer the question what is a public road is more complicated than you think but for practical hunting purposes not so complicated .
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Re: What's a "Public Rd"

Post by stihl88 » 18 Aug 2023, 6:35 pm

Fionn wrote:
stihl88 wrote:As others have mentioned I think it's safe to say that the 100m from a road exclusion zone is for Private Property only and not applicable to Public Place (Crown Land/State Forest).

100m from a road only applies to "conduct of sport or target shooting activity on private property" nothing else, but your correct it doesn't apply to crown land.


Yes very good point. If hunting or "sighting in" then these exclusion zones do not apply.
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Re: What's a "Public Rd"

Post by bladeracer » 19 Aug 2023, 11:07 pm

I happen to be looking at this right now trying to help a mate that has some inconsiderate shooters nearby.
Sending him the relevant parts of the Regs which includes the section about not target shooting within 100m of a "road", leading me to check the definition of a "road" under the Road Safety Act.

A "road" is an area open to the public for the purposes of driving or riding motor vehicles. So it wouldn't include a walking or bicycle track, which does seem odd to me with regard to shooting.
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