Mounting safe in roof cavity / crawl space

Questions about Victorian gun and ammunition laws. Victorian Firearms Act 1996.

Mounting safe in roof cavity / crawl space

Post by dpskipper » 06 Nov 2020, 10:47 pm

I'm upgrading safes and while I'm at it, i'd like to put it in a much more secluded spot in the house, that absolutely no criminal would ever find.

Essentially in my house, in the upper story, there is a sizable crawl space / cavity, spanning the entire circumference of the upper level. Almost enough for a grown adult to stand up in. Maybe 1m wide and 1.5m tall.

On one side is the roof tiles and insulation from the roof, and on the other side of the cavity are the exposed timber studs, insulation, and beneath that, the plasterboard from the rooms.

My question is, can I mount a safe here? Schedule 4 of the act simply mentions "frame of the floor or the wall of the premises", and studs counts as framing.
I'm just concerned if a copper will see this safe mounted essentially 'behind' the wall, and somehow thing its against the act, as there is no "wall" back there technically. its just studs and insulation.

cheers.
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Re: Mounting safe in roof cavity / crawl space

Post by womble » 07 Nov 2020, 2:35 am

Disclaimer, Contact your dfo for a real answer.

The act is to be taken literally.
The beams in the roof may not be weight bearing.
I can see why you would consider as much because obvious safe is obvious if you get burgled and they may come back prepared to break into it. There’s a freaking treasure chest in this house. So yeah, you need to go further than the minimum requirements in my opinion.
Hypothetically you could have two safes, one for dfo inspection purposes another hidden. Nethertheless both entirely compliant in case you have to report a theft. Another consideration is a floor safe. Or depending on your houses design you may be able to do something in the back of a wardrobe.
With the tools anyone can buy nowadays it’s very easy to get into any safe. So consider making it a more timely exercise for a would be theif. Make your property the less attractive option in your area or street. Most theft is opportunistic. Install cameras. Dogs make the best alarm systems.
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Re: Mounting safe in roof cavity / crawl space

Post by TassieTiger » 07 Nov 2020, 9:18 am

I’m in and out of my safes quite regularly - jumping in and out of roof cavity would drive me nuts.
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Re: Mounting safe in roof cavity / crawl space

Post by Skinna » 07 Nov 2020, 11:24 am

On principle i see no problems with it...its all about crims not having easy access to firearms, so in the roof is harder to get.
But...Depends on how you attach it...if attached to structural framework of the house through a wall lining, the only real access to the fixings to rmove the safe, is to rip the wall out...however if attaching to bare timbers in the roof, it may be easy to cyt a couple of them out to remove the safe...

At the end of the day, its about common sense, so dont worry yourself as to whether the particular timbers you are attaching to are load bearing as womble has suggested--that makes absolutely no difference at all--id hazzard a guess most safes installed in timber framed houses are attached to noggins & they arent load bearing--theyre just there to pick up the plasterboard...
Its all about how secure it is & that it is attached to the building structure...you dont want to be able to pull the safe out easy.

Aside from that, im with Tassie--going in n out of the roof space would drive me nuts...

Ring your local firearms branch, but id guess its all up to interpretation....so be smart about it, use common sense, as long as its firmly attached & not easily removed, you should be fine.

If there is easy access to the roof from the outside, id not put it in there because smarter theives of the older days would often gain access to houses vis the roof space as its pretty easy to lift a few roof tiles.

:drinks:
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Re: Mounting safe in roof cavity / crawl space

Post by linkoln » 07 Nov 2020, 11:57 am

When I did my safety course they told us when securing your firearms think if someone got to them did you do everything possible to prevent them from being taken. Note that is a subjective question because your interpretation is different to the next person.
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Re: Mounting safe in roof cavity / crawl space

Post by womble » 07 Nov 2020, 2:31 pm

I dream of a world where chickens can cross the road without having their motives questioned
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Re: Mounting safe in roof cavity / crawl space

Post by Farmerpete » 07 Nov 2020, 3:51 pm

My first reaction to this is ask weapons licensing, or your states equivalent IN WRITING that way you have a written response. If they say its ok keep the response in your safe and save the email, that way when offerus bribes an unstablecarnt Smith turn up you can prove you've done the right thing.
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Re: Mounting safe in roof cavity / crawl space

Post by dpskipper » 11 Nov 2020, 7:49 am

Thanks for the responses guys. I'm going to spend the effort and renovate the crawl space a little. Sweep it out, put up plaster sheeting, maybe an undercoat, put down some lino flooring etc. Then i'll screw down the safe to the studs. That way it won't look like some half arsed job. Safe will still be legal as its " fixed to the frame
of the floor or the wall"
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Re: Mounting safe in roof cavity / crawl space

Post by marksman » 11 Nov 2020, 9:10 am

Skinna wrote:On principle i see no problems with it...its all about crims not having easy access to firearms, so in the roof is harder to get.
But...Depends on how you attach it...if attached to structural framework of the house through a wall lining, the only real access to the fixings to rmove the safe, is to rip the wall out...however if attaching to bare timbers in the roof, it may be easy to cyt a couple of them out to remove the safe...

At the end of the day, its about common sense, so dont worry yourself as to whether the particular timbers you are attaching to are load bearing as womble has suggested--that makes absolutely no difference at all--id hazzard a guess most safes installed in timber framed houses are attached to noggins & they arent load bearing--theyre just there to pick up the plasterboard...
Its all about how secure it is & that it is attached to the building structure...you dont want to be able to pull the safe out easy.

Aside from that, im with Tassie--going in n out of the roof space would drive me nuts...

Ring your local firearms branch, but id guess its all up to interpretation....so be smart about it, use common sense, as long as its firmly attached & not easily removed, you should be fine.

If there is easy access to the roof from the outside, id not put it in there because smarter theives of the older days would often gain access to houses vis the roof space as its pretty easy to lift a few roof tiles.

:drinks:


+1 :thumbsup:

most firearms inspections are not what you would perceive them to be
the law only states that if the safe weighs less than 150kg it must be secured to the wall or floor
you get a lot of voodoo at the safety courses to try and frighten you into believing that you will lose your firearms if you dont put in a bank safe
but l dont think anyone these days would not secure their gun safe in a proper manner and keep their firearms secure
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Re: Mounting safe in roof cavity / crawl space

Post by Oldbloke » 11 Nov 2020, 9:56 am

dpskipper wrote:Thanks for the responses guys. I'm going to spend the effort and renovate the crawl space a little. Sweep it out, put up plaster sheeting, maybe an undercoat, put down some lino flooring etc. Then i'll screw down the safe to the studs. That way it won't look like some half arsed job. Safe will still be legal as its " fixed to the frame
of the floor or the wall"


I agree. Out of sight out of mind. Better than in the garden shed or garage where many are installed.
(No asbestos in the cavity to deal with?)
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Re: Mounting safe in roof cavity / crawl space

Post by dpskipper » 11 Nov 2020, 9:59 am

Oldbloke wrote:(No asbestos in the cavity to deal with?)


No, I built it all myself years ago. Its just roof tiles, timber beams and insulation.
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Re: Mounting safe in roof cavity / crawl space

Post by Larry » 11 Nov 2020, 11:50 am

On the other hand you really want your safe to be easily accessible for yourself. It shouldn't be a chore to get a rifle out or to put one away, especially if you use them regularly. If you make access to hard it is likely that your guns will become safe queens as it is just to hard to get them out when wanted.
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Re: Mounting safe in roof cavity / crawl space

Post by dpskipper » 11 Nov 2020, 11:54 am

Larry wrote:On the other hand you really want your safe to be easily accessible for yourself. It shouldn't be a chore to get a rifle out or to put one away, especially if you use them regularly. If you make access to hard it is likely that your guns will become safe queens as it is just to hard to get them out when wanted.


Thanks, but none of this bothers me.
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Re: Mounting safe in roof cavity / crawl space

Post by TassieTiger » 11 Nov 2020, 11:56 am

^ exactly.
There will be times when you don’t have time to clean after a hunt or a shoot - so put them away until.
Then you might want to buy something to fit or test a reload length or brass chambering or...arghhhh my head hurts thinking about it.
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