Proposed changes to culling permits.

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Proposed changes to culling permits.

Post by Oldbloke » 04 Nov 2021, 2:59 pm

Soo, I'm not for killing natives willy, nilly. In fact we should consider ourselves lucky to have the unique flora and fauna that we do have.
But these new proposed changes do seem way over the top IMHO.


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Re: Proposed changes to culling permits.

Post by bladeracer » 04 Nov 2021, 3:33 pm

Is this actually different to the current situation?
This looks essentially like what I had to do when we were considering having to control the roos during the drought a few years back.

A long application requiring lots of supporting evidence showing we've already tried all the expensive solutions, resulting possibly in permits to cull less than one-percent of the problem animals. It's not like there's any shortage of roos.
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Re: Proposed changes to culling permits.

Post by animalpest » 04 Nov 2021, 8:03 pm

I am unsure of the current requirements for culling wildlife in Victoria. Perhaps someone could explain the difference in current versus proposed changes?

Is this just for roos or any native wildlife?

Other than consulting with third parties (e.g neighbours) which doesn't mean getting their approval, and having to do a management plan (onerous for the average farmer) then it doesn't appear too tough.
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Re: Proposed changes to culling permits.

Post by deye243 » 04 Nov 2021, 8:17 pm

Oldbloke wrote:Soo, I'm not for killing natives willy, nilly. In fact we should consider ourselves lucky to have the unique flora and fauna that we do have.
But these new proposed changes do seem way over the top IMHO.


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What do you mean by proposed it has been like that here in East Gippsland ever since the fires you even have to submit video evidence that you have a kangaroo problem .
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Re: Proposed changes to culling permits.

Post by bladeracer » 04 Nov 2021, 8:26 pm

animalpest wrote:I am unsure of the current requirements for culling wildlife in Victoria. Perhaps someone could explain the difference in current versus proposed changes?

Is this just for roos or any native wildlife?

Other than consulting with third parties (e.g neighbours) which doesn't mean getting their approval, and having to do a management plan (onerous for the average farmer) then it doesn't appear too tough.


You skipped all the bits about having to have already tried better fencing, catching and relocating, bird scarers, and all the other things you have to show didn't work, before you càn resort to a cull permit application...keeping in mind that all of those other things you tried, if they'd been successful, did nothing except shift the same problem onto some other landowners.
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Re: Proposed changes to culling permits.

Post by animalpest » 04 Nov 2021, 9:56 pm

Yeah Bladeracer, I can imagine when roos are hammering your crop, you just want to cull them. And fair enough.

In some cases, scaring, relocating, fencing etc can help. But these take time to work your way through. Catching and relocating can be an expensive option (I have a lot of experience in this).

Having to consider the options as part of a management plan would be better than having to try them all.
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Re: Proposed changes to culling permits.

Post by deye243 » 04 Nov 2021, 10:34 pm

The way I see it if they want their precious little kangaroos it's up to them the fence them into their state forest or National Park should not be up to the farmer to have to put up a ******' fence to keep them out
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Re: Proposed changes to culling permits.

Post by Sarco » 05 Nov 2021, 9:47 pm

Sadly there rules are thought of and decided by shiny bums sitting in offices in Melbourne that look out their window, can't see any kangaroos and therefore they are endangered with extinction.

Whiteman was the best thing that ever happened to the kangaroo, by putting water points and tasty grasses everywhere, eliminating their predators so they keep breeding and breeding and as such the numbers develop fast. While I haven't seen anything to prove it, I strongly suspect that kangaroo numbers across Australia are astronomically higher than pre whiteman even with the controlled harvesting/culling of numbers.
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Re: Proposed changes to culling permits.

Post by bladeracer » 05 Nov 2021, 10:42 pm

animalpest wrote:Yeah Bladeracer, I can imagine when roos are hammering your crop, you just want to cull them. And fair enough.

In some cases, scaring, relocating, fencing etc can help. But these take time to work your way through. Catching and relocating can be an expensive option (I have a lot of experience in this).

Having to consider the options as part of a management plan would be better than having to try them all.


For us, it's not crops, just grasses and water, that our cows need to eat to turn into meat. A cow needs a lot of grass and water every day. I would have to look up how much a kangaroo eats in a day, probably a lot less than a cow, but a lot of roos eat a lot of grass and drink a lot of water. When there's none left, they go find somewhere else to destroy, but what are the cows supposed to do? If the cows become non-viable due to the cost of importing food and water, they become extinct, and the land becomes worthless. The farmers sell up and the area probably gets turned into housing. The local businesses shut down because there are no farms to service.

Pretty soon we're importing meat from overseas and paying $100 per kilo for a meal...but we have heaps of roos to look at while we eat it.

There is absolutely _no_ reason we need millions and millions of roos roaming all over the country side. They are nowhere close to needing protection. They do exactly the same thing to native wildlife as they do to farms, they eat all the food and leave other genuinely endangered wildlife to starve. They should be reclassified as a pest species, and just keep them protected in areas where they aren't doing damage, like native crows and ravens.
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Re: Proposed changes to culling permits.

Post by NTSOG » 07 Nov 2021, 6:05 am

animalpest: " Catching and relocating can be an expensive option (I have a lot of experience in this)."

It was my understanding that relocating 'roos doesn't work as the stress of being captured, shipped, etc. can itself kill them. Then there is the issue of putting a new mob of 'roos into an environment in which there is already a functional mob or 'roos whose 'members' would not be welcoming to the invasion of their territory by a strange mob.

As for better fences, the 'roos 'belong' to the Crown so why should farmers be required to build bigger, better fences to keep 'roos out? We are required to have adequate fencing to keep our stock in. As for scaring the blighters, seeing some of their mates being shot does seem to influence the rest to move next door: 'roo numbers on my place rise every time the farmer down the road about three quarters of a mile away shoots a few. The issue is that there are just too many eating my grass needed by my cattle. I don't mind having a few on the property, but hordes of the fat buggers is excessive.

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Re: Proposed changes to culling permits.

Post by animalpest » 07 Nov 2021, 11:30 am

Part of the costs of relocation is determining where they can be relocated to. It's needs enough room and feed to take extra animals and the feed etc need to be similar.

Capture myopathy can be a big issue with roos. If they are stressed they can die from it. So the capture process itself is critical. There have been very successful relocation programs and there have been dismal failures, purely depending on the stress of the animals prior to capture.

Relocation is not an option for most roos in a farm type setting.
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Re: Proposed changes to culling permits.

Post by bladeracer » 07 Nov 2021, 12:13 pm

animalpest wrote:Part of the costs of relocation is determining where they can be relocated to. It's needs enough room and feed to take extra animals and the feed etc need to be similar.

Capture myopathy can be a big issue with roos. If they are stressed they can die from it. So the capture process itself is critical. There have been very successful relocation programs and there have been dismal failures, purely depending on the stress of the animals prior to capture.

Relocation is not an option for most roos in a farm type setting.


Relocation is a ludicrous consideration for kangaroos anyway, they are a thriving species with zero likelyhood of extinction, and in fact verge on becoming a pest species. Relocation should be into pet food cans.
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Re: Proposed changes to culling permits.

Post by Pudlux » 08 Nov 2021, 7:14 pm

I cull Kangaroos for a couple of Vic properties. Only rules are calibre, stationary and humane dispatch by head shooting under 200m. Any young dispatched humanely as you would expect. I have noticed that allocated disposal numbers are reduced this year.
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Re: Proposed changes to culling permits.

Post by animalpest » 09 Nov 2021, 12:12 am

Bladeracer I think you have missed the point.
We don't shoot all roos because they are a pest in some areas, we shoot roos where and when they are a pest.

Killing a native animal (compared to foxes and rabbits) should be a considered and reasoned as a method of management. Justified because they cause damage and shooting humanely is the most effectively way to reduce the damage.

Not all kangaroos are pests that need to be shot. If we can consider all options with death of the animals as the last resort then that allows us to consider
other options without anything being killed - the best outcome.

In some circumstances, shifting the animals without killing them is warranted. Problem solved and animals live.

I am concerned that the only option you consider is shooting.
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Re: Proposed changes to culling permits.

Post by NTSOG » 09 Nov 2021, 6:21 am

animal pest: "In some circumstances, shifting the animals without killing them is warranted. Problem solved and animals live."

So who pays for the hungry animals to be moved and who determines where they are to go? To my mind if relocation is to occur then the State government should pay as the 'roos 'belong' to the Crown. As for the site for relocation I would understand if farmers in the chosen area became somewhat upset at the possibility of a bunch of hungry 'migrant' 'roos being dumped on them.

I assume that when relocation 'programs' are run there will be a cast of thousands: government officials from various departments, RSPCA, 'unbiased' animal liberation types including PETA and all overseen by left-wing oriented and city-based media ready to exaggerate/distort any problems arising.

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Re: Proposed changes to culling permits.

Post by bladeracer » 09 Nov 2021, 8:38 am

I am only talking about pest roos, not all roos. We have plenty of roos here.
Relocating pest roos just creates a pest roo problem for somebody else.
Reducing the numbers overall is the best option when you have millions of them. Shooting them is not the only option, it's the best option. There are plenty of other options that move the problem onto your neighbour, none of those are the best option.

Merely being a native animal is no reason not to get overall numbers under control for the benefit of all other native animals.

animalpest wrote:Bladeracer I think you have missed the point.
We don't shoot all roos because they are a pest in some areas, we shoot roos where and when they are a pest.

Killing a native animal (compared to foxes and rabbits) should be a considered and reasoned as a method of management. Justified because they cause damage and shooting humanely is the most effectively way to reduce the damage.

Not all kangaroos are pests that need to be shot. If we can consider all options with death of the animals as the last resort then that allows us to consider
other options without anything being killed - the best outcome.

In some circumstances, shifting the animals without killing them is warranted. Problem solved and animals live.

I am concerned that the only option you consider is shooting.
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Re: Proposed changes to culling permits.

Post by bladeracer » 09 Nov 2021, 8:43 am

I suspect that the largest cost, by far, of relocation of pest animals, is paying somebody to do it.
How does the cost of catching and relocating twenty problem roos compare to the cost of a cull permit and 20rds of ammo?

Not rhetorical, I'm genuinely curious.

animalpest wrote:Part of the costs of relocation is determining where they can be relocated to. It's needs enough room and feed to take extra animals and the feed etc need to be similar.

Capture myopathy can be a big issue with roos. If they are stressed they can die from it. So the capture process itself is critical. There have been very successful relocation programs and there have been dismal failures, purely depending on the stress of the animals prior to capture.

Relocation is not an option for most roos in a farm type setting.
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Re: Proposed changes to culling permits.

Post by bladeracer » 09 Nov 2021, 8:52 am

I did find this: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.soundt ... 23075z.amp

$1666 per animal to move 150 roos, of which 60 died. That is just ludicrous.
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Re: Proposed changes to culling permits.

Post by bladeracer » 09 Nov 2021, 8:59 am

NTSOG wrote:animal pest: "In some circumstances, shifting the animals without killing them is warranted. Problem solved and animals live."

So who pays for the hungry animals to be moved and who determines where they are to go? To my mind if relocation is to occur then the State government should pay as the 'roos 'belong' to the Crown. As for the site for relocation I would understand if farmers in the chosen area became somewhat upset at the possibility of a bunch of hungry 'migrant' 'roos being dumped on them.

I assume that when relocation 'programs' are run there will be a cast of thousands: government officials from various departments, RSPCA, 'unbiased' animal liberation types including PETA and all overseen by left-wing oriented and city-based media ready to exaggerate/distort any problems arising.

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You can guarantee that relocation is the option pushed by the pest controllers too.
Sure, they could be paid to go and spend a night shooting them, or they could be paid for weeks or months to relocate them. As a pest control company which would you consider the "best" option...

Making it the government's expense still comes out of our pockets, and allows the cost to blow out huge amounts. Pest controllers would love to be tendering those contracts instead of dealing with individual land owners.
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Re: Proposed changes to culling permits.

Post by animalpest » 09 Nov 2021, 10:04 am

My view is that relocation is definitely a more expensive option compared to shooting.

In a recent program where our client wanted to look at all options for kangaroos that were overpopulated, we recommended shooting. The client was a government agency.

Sure we could have made a lot more money relocating but my job is to make informed and responsible decisions and recommendations for the client. Costs are a factor considered.

The relocation program above was the State government costs. Then there was the costs for the property developer! I wouldn't be surprised if the developer had to pay the government for some of their costs. Yep, and that program was a total disaster.

Some people charge a fortune doing relocation and are not all that good at it! Hence deaths from capture myopathy can be high.
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Re: Proposed changes to culling permits.

Post by Oldbloke » 09 Nov 2021, 10:48 am

animalpest wrote:Yeah Bladeracer, I can imagine when roos are hammering your crop, you just want to cull them. And fair enough.

In some cases, scaring, relocating, fencing etc can help. But these take time to work your way through. Catching and relocating can be an expensive option (I have a lot of experience in this).

Having to consider the options as part of a management plan would be better than having to try them all.


Just with my very limited knowledge, to try all options could easily be way over the top. But then given they are a native, other management strategies should be considered. Just jumping directly to shooting seems to me could be omitting other worth while options.
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Re: Proposed changes to culling permits.

Post by bladeracer » 09 Nov 2021, 12:26 pm

Oldbloke wrote:
animalpest wrote:Yeah Bladeracer, I can imagine when roos are hammering your crop, you just want to cull them. And fair enough.

In some cases, scaring, relocating, fencing etc can help. But these take time to work your way through. Catching and relocating can be an expensive option (I have a lot of experience in this).

Having to consider the options as part of a management plan would be better than having to try them all.


Just with my very limited knowledge, to try all options could easily be way over the top. But then given they are a native, other management strategies should be considered. Just jumping directly to shooting seems to me could be omitting other worth while options.


I don't think "jumping straight to shooting" is an option in any state, although I don't recall the details when they opened up roo culling during the NSW drought - did they still have to have tried other methods before applying to cull, or was that all waived due to hardship?


Lots of native animals can be culled, even without any permits in some places. I doubt any of those animals come close to population numbers of roos.
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Re: Proposed changes to culling permits.

Post by animalpest » 09 Nov 2021, 2:19 pm

As far as I am aware going straight to culling is permitted in most States, although some areas may require a permit.

Relocation is a specialised field requiring a vet or other approvals/licencing to use the imobilising/tranquilizer drugs that it's a very limited option.
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Re: Proposed changes to culling permits.

Post by bladeracer » 09 Nov 2021, 3:32 pm

animalpest wrote:As far as I am aware going straight to culling is permitted in most States, although some areas may require a permit.

Relocation is a specialised field requiring a vet or other approvals/licencing to use the imobilising/tranquilizer drugs that it's a very limited option.


I haven't looked into it since 2016-ish, when it was looking like we would have to knock some over to train tyem to eat the neighbour's pastures (not my idea of a solution at all), but the requirements I'd have to fill before an application would be considered was more work than bringing in hay and town water.
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