Licencing and Mental Illness

[recurveman]

Hey Guys,

I came here to ask about some issues that I realise are sensitive with some people, but it's an issue that I want to share with you, and get your opinion.

I hope that you are aware that it's not easy to talk about with others, so I came here to see what this community thinks to make a more informed decision about my new desire to switch from bowhunting to being a responsible firearm owner.

Here it goes.

At 18, I was diagnosed with bipolar type II. I had a really difficult 20's, and suffered long periods of depression punctuated by hypomanic episodes. It's an important distinction to state that bipolar is not schizophrenia. I don't hear voices, I never have. But basically, when I wasn't taking medication I'd have my episodes which meant that I felt like I was on top of the world. I didn't really need to sleep much, could make lots of music, and was excited to talk theories about physics and mathematic, which I studied.

I know myself, and I knew that at that time, a firearm might be a danger to me. I have no doubt that I wouldn't hurt someone. I've never, ever committed a single violent act in my life. I only know one other man who can say that. I haven't ever committed a criminal act, and have loads of character references, including members of the Federal Police and the ADF that know me.

More than anyone I know, I manage stress, have many people here to support me - but I haven't needed it thanks to the success of medication. Since I've taken medication, and had a lot of therapy, I don't need to even see my shrink anymore as he feels confident that I've been stable for such a long time now, that I'm effectively treated. I know for myself that this is the case.

I manage my stress, have a keen awareness of my moods, and communicate with others about problems I might have. None of them are out of the normal range of the human experience in healthy individuals. I'm sure you'll join me in celebrating that. I'm free from what can be a really s**t thing to live with.

I'm not depressed anymore, and thanks to the meds and the treatment, I stand the same chance anyone does to enjoy stability, and a normal life.

My legal question is this:

When I was filling out my permit application form, I noticed a section that asked about mental illness. I am required to answer this honestly, and I know I need supportive paperwork to state my stability and health. I'm worried because when I mentioned it to my psych, he said he has a rubber stamp approach to firearms as he personally disagrees with guns. Obviously, if you'll excuse the word, I think that's insane.

Am I out of options? Is that it for me?

Honestly, I'm stable, and like I said I'm not violent - the only fear for people would be that I'd use a firearm on myself. But to be honest, I doubt that would ever happen. There's no way that even if I wanted to tap out that I'd go out like that. I know that like the sky is blue.

Let me know what you think, but keep in mind, this isn't easy to talk about in a forum - so if you're keen to judge, read it all twice and think thrice.

Thanks guys/girls.

[North East]

Tell them everything about your condition. They will want to see evidence, medical referrals, everything. Don't give up hope.

[trekin]

Sorry mate, but I am going to be judgmental here, as this is a classical example as to why some people with mental illnesses should not be licenced to do certain things that could be a threat to the health and well being of others. Your psych appears to be suffering hopolphobia with possibly some form of low level sociopathic tendencies, and really needs to surrender his licence to practice and seek treatment.
As to your problem, not saying it's impossible, but I doubt it will be easy. Do as NE suggests. As to your psych, you could point out that the licencing authority only want to know if you could cause harm to yourself or others, and if he has had no problem doing this on other occasions then it would seem a bit hypocritical to do it now soully based on his bias thoughts on firearm ownership.
Of course, you could always bowl him a googlie and invite him to accompany you when you do your safety course, and a couple of days at the range, your treat. You never know, you might be able to return the favor of him treating your disorder by you treating his.

[Baldrick314]

First up, good on you for being brave enough to open yourself up like this to strangers.

As to the psych, if he's openly admitted he won't treat your situation fairly because of his own bias I'd seek a second opinion. Obviously you have a long history with him and it would take time to build rapport with someone else but I personally would find progressing with the current person extremely frustrating and would lose more than a little trust in their judgement if they can be so blindly stubborn.

Good luck with it all anyway mate, hope it works out for you

[David Brown]

trekin has a good point there. It also shows your level of responsible safety. He gets to see it first hand.

If he refuses, then the best approach is research through the local clubs to find another practitioner who can become your new specialist, and who understands firearms and safety and the law. Heck even they might say, no, sorry you are best finding another past time.

Throughout history, it has been the undetected and unmanaged that have gone on a killing spree, so by that definition you could be less likely than the rest of us!

[Title_II]

I'll vouch for you.

[adam]

Good on you for asking a hard question, and for being honest about this. You've got some good advise here.

The big problem I see here is your psyc. Forget your license for a moment.

If what you say is as it is - He is not being professional, and is bringing in personal bias in your diagnosis. This is wrong on a medical, ethical and professional grounds. What he's done is discrimination - he's generalised and ruled on that.

It's no different to a 50yo going to a doctor for medicals saying that they need one for car license, and the doctor saying "I don't believe people over 50 should be driving a car regardless of their health, so I have a rubber stamp approach on this".

Getting a new psyc is an option. I'd also be talking to close friends about whether or not to report him to the Australian Health Practitioner Regulation Agency. All this has nothing to do with firearms yet - just solely on medical grounds.

As for getting your firearms license - the internet is the last place that can advise you on that. An honest and unbiased psyc that is treating you is the best person to talk to - but at this stage you don't have one. Your current one with his "rubber stamp" approach means that your not getting honest answers from him, nor getting the best treatment and advise that you can be - and he is also being discriminatory - which is illegal.

If he's willing to break laws and ethics for his own personal opinion like this, what else could he also be allowing his own personal bias in on?

[Chronos]

First up, good on you for being brave enough to open yourself up like this to strangers.

As to the psych, if he's openly admitted he won't treat your situation fairly because of his own bias I'd seek a second opinion. Obviously you have a long history with him and it would take time to build rapport with someone else but I personally would find progressing with the current person extremely frustrating and would lose more than a little trust in their judgement if they can be so blindly stubborn.

Good luck with it all anyway mate, hope it works out for you

My thoughts and sentiment match what's written above.

Stick with it mate, shooting is a fantastic sport full of great people.

Chronos

[bluerob]

First up, good on you for being brave enough to open yourself up like this to strangers.

As to the psych, if he's openly admitted he won't treat your situation fairly because of his own bias I'd seek a second opinion. Obviously you have a long history with him and it would take time to build rapport with someone else but I personally would find progressing with the current person extremely frustrating and would lose more than a little trust in their judgement if they can be so blindly stubborn.

Good luck with it all anyway mate, hope it works out for you

My thoughts and sentiment match what's written above.

Stick with it mate, shooting is a fantastic sport full of great people.

Chronos

+ 1.

[Grrzrr]

First up, good on you for being brave enough to open yourself up like this to strangers.

Yes, kudos to you for that recurveman. I'm sure this wasn't easy to write.

I'm no doctor so can't really comment but good luck to you.

[VICHunter]

My legal question is this:

When I was filling out my permit application form, I noticed a section that asked about mental illness. I am required to answer this honestly, and I know I need supportive paperwork to state my stability and health. I'm worried because when I mentioned it to my psych, he said he has a rubber stamp approach to firearms as he personally disagrees with guns. Obviously, if you'll excuse the word, I think that's insane.

Am I out of options? Is that it for me?

I'll paste this here so it's clear exactly what we're discussing. This is what the VIC license application asks:

Have you in the past 5 years been treated for:

• Mental health concerns including depression, stress or emotional problems?
• Alcohol or drug related problems?
• Neurological conditions including stroke and brain injury?
• A physical disability, or any other medical condition which could impact on a person’s ability to safely possess and carry firearms?

If you answer “yes” to any of the above, you must obtain a medical report from a doctor who treated you, or is familiar with
your condition, outlining your suitability to hold a firearm licence and possess firearms. (refer to instruction pages)

If you answer “yes” to any question, you must supply a medical report regarding your suitability to hold a firearms licence, stating
that you are a fit and proper person to be in possession of firearms and/or a firearms licence and that you pose no threat to yourself
or the community.

Disclaimer: I'm not a doctor and obviously don't know the specifics of your condition so I won't make a suggestion either way but these are the facts for you to work with.

To get your license you will need "a medical report from a doctor who treated you, or is familiar with your condition, outlining your suitability to hold a firearm licence and possess firearms".

This letter report should state "you are a fit and proper person to be in possession of firearms and/or a firearms licence and that you pose no threat to yourself or the community".

It's clear from the outset that the psychiatrist/psychologist you have mentioned here is not the person to see in regards to providing this letter.

His personal opinion about guns has (or should have) no bearing on the situation at all. I'd add for the record too that if he has outright said to you he won't write the letter for you due to his personal opinions on firearms, regardless of your mental well being, that's hypocritical. I doubt you have any recourse along the lines the hippocratic oath but I would say that at least ethically, if not legally, he's required to write you the letter stating your suitability if his medical opinion is that you pose no threat.

As for reporting him to AHPRA, I agree that what he's doing is wrong but I don't know how much reporting him is going to help you. Just piss him off most likely). You don't want to burn the bridge with the doctor as part of this.

If his medical opinion is that you're not suitable, then obviously that's a different story and he should refuse to write the letter on that basis alone, regardless of his personal opinion of guns.

Either way, probably safe to say he's off the list on terms of help for getting your license.

I assume you have seen other doctors during the course of your treatment? Don't forget you don't need a letter from this psych specifically, you need one from "a doctor who treated you". Try your family GP or another doctor who has.

Good luck.

[Lorgar]

I can share a colleagues story that's hopefully of some help.

He had his vindictive ex-wife tell the police (false claims) he was threatening to hurt himself and others.

His license was suspended and his FA confiscated and he was told to write a letter from himself and get one from the GP declaring that in their opinion he was no threat.

As it happens, after the first letters were received they asked him to do basically the same thing again

They said he needed a letter himself stating his situation and he felt he was fit and proper and another from the Dr. He told them he'd already done that, asked what the point was in doing it again, and from what he tells me they just went round in circles with him asking for what was already provided.

In the end he had the same Dr. write a slightly more lengthy letter, and did the same himself, and that was accepted and they restored his license and returned his firearms. That was years ago and he hasn't heard a word on it since as far as I know.

This is Victorian licensing too.

[adam]

As for reporting him to AHPRA, I agree that what he's doing is wrong but I don't know how much reporting him is going to help you. Just piss him off most likely). You don't want to burn the bridge with the doctor as part of this.

This is true. It won't help the OP get a firearm license, but as per my original reply - my statement wasn't even considering the license to start with.

One of the dangers with the situation the Psychologist is doing in this instance is discouraging others to seek assistance in the first place.

Many men don't seek help or support for mental issues as it is. When you have doctors like this that will use their own bias against their own patience it's only encouraging the problem.

To be in the position this doctor is requires significant trust from his patience. His actions not only reflect bad against himself, but the rest of the practitioners and industry as well, and he needs to be held to a much higher standard.

How many people might be put off from seeking assistance or treatment for things such as depression just by hearing this testimony?

Personally I wouldn't want to report him straight away and would like to 'work with him', but that too can burn your bridges. If he has any inkling that you are going to take this further, he may change his stance from 'rubber stamp' to 'in your particular case', just to protect himself, and I'm not sure where that leaves you.

And as mentioned, why should this case be treated any differently to the scenario I gave above (50yo drivers). They're both discriminatory.

In either situation - and taking the OP's post as it is - if it was me - I'd be getting a different psychologist simply because his standards (ethically and professionally) seem well below that required for his position, and I wouldn't be able to trust him enough to be fully open about anything in the future.

Now if it's a different issue, and he doesn't consider you fit enough to hold a license then that's an entirely different matter - but to rubber stamp everyone, that's just not on.

[Manimal]

Sorry mate, but I am going to be judgmental here, as this is a classical example as to why some people with mental illnesses should not be licenced to do certain things that could be a threat to the health and well being of others.

Really mate, who are you to make such judgements?

I'm assuming you're not a doctor as you didn't mention it. Even if you were you don't know recurveman.

Honestly I'm not having a go at you but just saying, your comments aren't that much better than the hopolphobia psychologists.

Just saying.

[Gwion]

Sorry mate, but I am going to be judgmental here, as this is a classical example as to why some people with mental illnesses should not be licenced to do certain things that could be a threat to the health and well being of others.

Really mate, who are you to make such judgements?

I'm assuming you're not a doctor as you didn't mention it. Even if you were you don't know recurveman.

Honestly I'm not having a go at you but just saying, your comments aren't that much better than the hopolphobia psychologists.

Just saying.

Easily misunderstood.

I read it as Trekin saying the doctor shouldn't be licensed.

It really isn't right that someone (ie: a doctor) should be willing to state officially that another individual is not "fit and proper" simply because of their own personal beliefs.

This should come down only to the doctor's professional opinion on the health and state of mind of the individual. Although, he may argue that it is his professional opinion that anyone under treatment should not hold a license for firearms.

Recurveman, you may need to gather your references and records of treatment and have another professional assess and determine if you are "fit and proper" or not.

[brett1868]

You have the right to view all the records he has on you and your treatment and to take copies. I'd be requesting all this information to ensure it's in your favour around being stable and incident free over a long period of time. Take the file to the new shrink so they have something to work from and explain to them your situation and the previous Dr's bias towards firearms. The more supporting documentation you can gather in your favour the better chance of a positive outcome.

[recurveman]

I don't know what to say.

I was trying to figure out who to thank for the support on this rather annoying issue, but you've all made valid statements, and I feel miles better just knowing there is a community online here that I can go to for advice.

From the bottom of me 'art, thank you.

It always struck me as completely odd that people found guns to be a threat.

I completely respect that as a society we want to make sure that there is common sense around gun licensing, but I drive a deadly weapon every day, I use a deadly weapon to cut up the spuds at night - and I used a deadly weapon today to play cricket with the lads in the park. Guess how many people died?

None. Although I got called LBW when it was miles off, and I thought about giving the wicky a little bop on the head, but I just want my right to own a gun so damned bad. Haha.

Although it doesn't suit my particular position right now, I understand it. What I don't understand is how an incredibly complex personal situation with lots of nuance can basically be presided over by one person's opinion. That's weird.

I hadn't really thought of the implications that this would have on the wider community, but suffice to say I had my mind blown on this one:

What a terrible situation that members of community, particularly men who make up the majority of suicides, are already met with hurdle to jump over before they've even walked through the doors of a health practitioner. What a waste of lives that could have been saved. If these men were in a hopeless place, and felt isolated - particularly in the rural community - there's blood on the hands of the government, not of the firearm owning community.

I'm going to have a good think about this, and I'll let you know how things go. Hopefully I can figure out a way to get around this. If anyone has any flash ideas, or experience with a similar thing, please feel free to PM me.

R

[North East]

[brett1868]

You can tell your Dr that you're more likely to be killed by a Dr then by a firearm....Fact, In the U.S Doctors kill 2,450% more Americans than all gun-related deaths combined (2013 Data). That'll give him something to think about....

[trekin]

Sorry mate, but I am going to be judgmental here, as this is a classical example as to why some people with mental illnesses should not be licenced to do certain things that could be a threat to the health and well being of others.

Really mate, who are you to make such judgements?

I'm assuming you're not a doctor as you didn't mention it. Even if you were you don't know recurveman.

Honestly I'm not having a go at you but just saying, your comments aren't that much better than the hopolphobia psychologists.

Just saying.

Whoa up there sunshine, back it up a bit and read the whole post. Seems everyone else was able to comprehend what I had written, including, it appears, the OP. So what's your problem?

[Title_II]

Man, these Queensland types seem a little rough

I'm still trying to learn all this...

[jake84]

firstly id like to say good on you for bring this subject up with total strangers .

keep at it if this is what you want more than any thing you will find a way.
speak with your local gun ranges they might be able to point you in the right direction .

i can see how you would feel you would be judged
that person has his views and may just be worried that one day it might all go pair shaped for you that's all .

have faith and keep at it

[Manimal]

Whoa up there sunshine, back it up a bit and read the whole post. Seems everyone else was able to comprehend what I had written, including, it appears, the OP. So what's your problem?

Relax. There is no problem.

This....

Easily misunderstood.

I'm with you now.

[jake84]

chill peeps this guy needs our help not our bull s**t

[Harper]

Everyone's chilled.

Just a misunderstanding which is prone to happening when conversations are typed

Good luck mate.