Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

[riggee]

Morning,

I've been reading a few comments and stories on people who've had unpleasant experiences with their safe inspections.

A common thread seems to be if the license holder isn't home, they say to the wife/son/girlfriend whoever that if they can just open the safe for them now they won't have to come back later and bother the owner.

Then if they open the safe everybody gets busted for improper storage, access without a license and whatever else it is.

Is that not entrapment?

Does that fly here or is it mostly an American thing?

[Hardcast]

Can't confirm or deny it Riggee, But that story did the rounds way back when the ****** hit the fan. Confiscations etc.
When they knocked on my door, and asked to have a look, they were very good.

It did however make sure that no one in my family knows where the key is to the lockup.

[Bills Shed]

Never had a problem with the local cops here. They were very good.

They gave prior notice and were respectful of my property.

My safe is built for WA restrictions and so when I moved to Tasmania they thought is was a over kill. Tasmanian regulations are more relaxed.

My wife has a licence as well so there is no dramas.

In Tasmania, as long a the person has a licence that covers the type of firearms they can use, carry and store it themselves. Quite different from WA.

[Lorgar]

As I understand it, entrapment isn't a defence here at all. "Do the crime, do the time" is the policy.

Even in the states I don't think it really flys, it's more of a movie thing.

To use entrapment as a defence I believe you literally have to be forced into doing it under some threat. If someone says "Hey, can you get me some pot" and you say "sure", that's not exactly twisting your arm.

I think you also need to have no predisposition to committing the crime. This is the key point on the safe inspection thing.

If the cops were threatening your unlicensed wife (or whoever) saying that she needs to open the safe "or else" and made her steal your safe key under threat or something like that, that would be one thing.

If they say can you open the safe and it will save us coming back and she does, she obviously already had access to the safe beforehand which she shouldn't have. That's obviously not entrapment.

I think these stories have gotten blown out of proportion TBH.

It wouldn't surprise me if cops regularly do ask if anyone else has access, or if the owner isn't there they ask if the person answering has access etc. just as a matter of course. But I'm quite sure they're not all going around strong-arming people into doing the wrong thing against their will.

[Guliver]

Can a gun safe have a digital pin pad instead of a key, I'll be buying a pistol once I have my license. At the moment I have a small fire proof safe for the storage of household documents, can I use it to store a pistol? It weighs about 50kg and is very firmly bolted to a concrete slab with a 20mm ramset anchor bolt.

[Vati]

Yes, it can have a keypad.

From Vic Police website...

2) Longarm licences for category C or category D longarms and handgun licences for general category handguns

(1) The firearm must be stored in a steel safe—
(a) which is of a thickness that is not easily penetrable; and
(b) which, if it weighs less than 150 kilograms when it is empty, must be bolted to the structure of the premises where the firearm is authorised to be kept; and
(c) which, when any firearm is stored in it, is locked.

Key or number pad is fine as long as the safe is up to scratch.

[Guliver]

Perfect, thanks Vati for the comprehensive reply.

[Vati]

Perfect, thanks Vati for the comprehensive reply.

Any time.

[Releb]

Still seems like a bit of a dog move to trick someone into opening it?

[subatom]

Still seems like a bit of a dog move to trick someone into opening it?

I dunno... If your not supposed to know the code and you obviously did?

That's your problem, not theirs.

Fair enough I guess?

[SendIt]

But I'm quite sure they're not all going around strong-arming people into doing the wrong thing against their will.

Exactly.

The few bad stories get blown around everywhere and the 99/100 once that go over without a hitch never get a mention.

Plenty of the guys doing the inspections are good blokes just doing there job, and often fellow shooters.

[Member-Deleted]

After my dad got his license a few years back he was out working on the farm and they came to inspect the safe and asked my stepmum where the key was so they wouldn't have to come back, she wouldn't tell them because she figured it could end in trouble so she called my old man to come home and do it and they outright told him that they would have done him for access without a license, improper storage ect if she had have done it.
Although I will say he is known to exaggerate a story.

[Tinked]

they came to inspect the safe and asked my stepmum where the key was so they wouldn't have to come back, she wouldn't tell them because she figured it could end in trouble so she called my old man to come home and do it and they outright told him that they would have done him for access without a license, improper storage ect if she had have done it.

Like Lorgar said, I reckon that's all that happens a lot of the time.

I seriously doubt they ever bully/threaten people into opening it like half the stories seem to make out.

[Bugman]

I guess I have been lucky. The wallopers that did the inspection were very good, polite and efficient...hope I get them next time.

[Norton]

I guess I have been lucky. The wallopers that did the inspection were very good, polite and efficient...hope I get them next time.

Most of them are fine mate. You only ever hear about the horror stories online.

[Redwood]

Most of them are fine mate. You only ever hear about the horror stories online.

Yep.

I've had mine done with no problems at all.

[riggee]

To use entrapment as a defence I believe you literally have to be forced into doing it under some threat. If someone says "Hey, can you get me some pot" and you say "sure", that's not exactly twisting your arm.

I think you also need to have no predisposition to committing the crime. This is the key point on the safe inspection thing.

If the cops were threatening your unlicensed wife (or whoever) saying that she needs to open the safe "or else" and made her steal your safe key under threat or something like that, that would be one thing.

If they say can you open the safe and it will save us coming back and she does, she obviously already had access to the safe beforehand which she shouldn't have. That's obviously not entrapment.

Thanks Lorgar.

That's a good explanation of it.

When I asked this I must admit I was looking at it from the wrong angle, like the cops were potentially tricking people into doing the wrong thing, but as said if you aren't supposed to have access then you aren't supposed to have it. Fair enough in that case.

[zobster]

Hi All,
Quick question, having recently got my firearms license and only just submitted my PTA, when would the police come and inspect my safe? Would I be given prior notice? What would happen if they came by and I'm at work / away etc?

[North East]

Hi All,
Quick question, having recently got my firearms license and only just submitted my PTA, when would the police come and inspect my safe? Would I be given prior notice? What would happen if they came by and I'm at work / away etc?

I haven't been inspected in 30 years of holding a firearms licence. Don't worry about it.

[David Brown]

But I'm quite sure they're not all going around strong-arming people into doing the wrong thing against their will.

Exactly.

The few bad stories get blown around everywhere and the 99/100 once that go over without a hitch never get a mention.

Plenty of the guys doing the inspections are good blokes just doing there job, and often fellow shooters.

Yeah……and like some coppers you are at far greater risk of having to pull them all out, and let them look feel and smell them….and have to wipe all the drool off afterwards!

Hey I go hunting with my friendly neighbourhood copper.

[1290]

It's not entrapment .....
When the 'laws' doing the entrapping.

Immunity of the 'Crown' features well in our laws....

If another member of the household knows the combos or knows where the keys are (Though you should always have them safely on/near you);
MAKE SURE they understand NOT to tell anyone where thy are including the police, regardless how 'nicely' they ask for the keys or combo....

Even if the person the police are trying to convince is licensed.... the law can wait for the owner, remember, at least in Victoria, an inspection must be at a reasonable time, if they do drop in unanounced (I've had the "we're just around the corner and thought we'd drop in to inspect while we're here) You CAN send them away if not convenient, say putting the kids to bed, about to go out or eat tea etc.....

ZOBSTER; if anyone tells you to 'not worry about it', tell them to f*** off, its YOUR licence on the line and YOU WILL lose your firearms, so make sure your storage is compliant, dont wait for the call or the knock...

[headspace]

I'd heard these stories before about turning up at some random time and asking the wife for the key. I went down to the local station and asked the question. The nice lady cop said "no we never turn up without calling first. It's a waste of time." I think she was sort of inferring that they really do have better things to do.I know of one bloke who lost all his stuff because the safe wasn't even bolted down, but there's moron's about unfortunately.
JD

[Bourt]

I'd heard these stories before about turning up at some random time and asking the wife for the key.

I've heard the same stories.

"if we can just look now it'll save us coming back later and your husband won't have to take the morning off work etc. etc." Like they're doing you a favour and it's better for all. Then they got done for knowing where the key is.

All the stories I've read have been second hand though. Never read a comment from someone who's personally had it happen or had it happen to an immediate friend.

But as said if you knew where the key was when you weren't supposed to then the wrong thing had already been done.

[Monty]

Quick question, having recently got my firearms license and only just submitted my PTA, when would the police come and inspect my safe? Would I be given prior notice? What would happen if they came by and I'm at work / away etc?

There is no standard inspection time in relation to your license/pta being issued. e.g. they don't come and visit you 1 month later on the day. It just happens when your name comes up.

You'll read in difference places it was 2 months for someone and 20 years for someone else.

You should be given prior notice, typically someone would call and arrange a time that's mutually agreeable. It's possible though that someone could turn up at the door unannounced if they couldn't reach you on the phone or for some other reason. Not typical, but possible.

As for being away or at work, if you're not home you obviously can't help them can you

Just remember only appropriately licensed residents can have access to the firearms, if the inspection date is booked don't leave the key with the wife 'just for the day'.

The inspection time has to be mutually agreeable, if you're at work and get the call you're not required to drop everything you're doing and race home at the drop of a hat.

They're not a big deal mate, usually done and dusted in 5 minutes for most people. Just get everything in order and if/when the call come you'll be right.

[Oldbloke]

How can anyone re-interpret "dont worry" to "dont secure". The discussion is not about if you should secure the firearms, its about inspections and entrapment.
In stead of jumping to conclusions, try and remember tbat text alone does not carry with it the otner non verbal communication tbat goes along with a face to face chat. A little more thought and less emotion and bad manners would go a long way for a few here. And by tbe way some people talk here you would think tbe forum is full of QCs. Sheesh, I think not. In your dreams.Mr

[1290]

Sambar Country's time is up here....

find your next forum to infiltrate

[Oldbloke]

Sambar Country's time is up here....

find your next forum to infilrate

Seems I could have struck a cord there.
Frankly all members should act with a bit of maturity here. This is an open forum and bad language, bad manners, childish name calling & arrogance, do not belong here. All that does is give hunters and shooters a bad reputation. Imagine if that type of language was on a greenie forum, we would be giving them a canning. Its a shame just 1 bad apple can spoil the lot. And its always the same apple.

[bluerob]

Seems I could have struck a cord there.
Frankly all members should act with a bit of maturity here. This is an open forum and bad language, bad manners, childish name calling & arrogance, do not belong here. All that does is give hunters and shooters a bad reputation. Imagine if that type of language was on a greenie forum, we would be giving them a canning. Its a shame just 1 bad apple can spoil the lot. And its always the same apple.

What you've said is 100% correct, in that, immature behaviour etc does our sport a lot of harm, especially if a politically motivated party/person is involved. I'm not having a go at you, or anyone.

Men (I'm assuming that's what we have here as members and women of course) don't normally concern themselves with mouthwash comments. Any younger members are probably having a great giggle?

Please, more shooting and technical advice talk and no more jumping up and down about nonsense.

Ignore the keyboard shooters.

There's a lot to learn with firearms/reloading and this place is a good place to visit. I'm off to the range.

[chacka]

I'm off to the range.

Sounds like a plan

[headspace]

I agree with Oldbloke, we should be careful about they way we discuss things, because anyone can access the forum, or even become a member. We don't who they are or what they represent. Inflammatory statements and swearing only lower the tone and cast us in a bad light. These people can lift text out of here and use it somewhere else to push their issue. Some of them are not too tightly wrapped too. I recall Rob Borsak saying he's had death threats and other malignant stuff directed his way. This is not a chat around a campfire, it's in the open, and we need to look and sound responsible.
JD