Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

Questions about Tasmanian fun and ammunition laws. Tasmanian Firearms Act 1996.

Re: Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

Post by happyhunter » 17 Oct 2016, 7:43 am

lenners wrote:The copper rang me up this arvo (sunday) to ask me where I am as he was knocking on my door for a surprise inspection. I was out at the time but I am unimpressed with his warrant-less entry of my property. I love living in the communist utopian state known as victoria.


Yeah, that's their recently adopted policy. It borders on being raided.
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Re: Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

Post by <<Genesis93>> » 17 Oct 2016, 8:44 am

MR. WINCHESTER wrote:I'm pretty sure ( has been highlighted HERE before ) that within the regulations ( N.S.W. ) 'safe storage' inspections, are to be carried out at a MUTUALLY AGREED TIME.


I've mentioned the Victorian example, whereby I found myself at a loss to find ANY reference to ANY provision that suggests the police can knock on your door at any 'convenient' time demanding to inspect your storage....

So please, for the benefit of New South Welshmen, drop in the particular Regulation or Section of the Act that suggests Police may conduct a storage inspection....

The Victorian example suggests that the 'firearms' must be produced on demand, not the 'storage'.

I suspect those who 'crafted' these POS of gun laws kind of had an idea that including a law that allowed Police (or other delegate of the Commish) to demand entry to your home, without suspicion of a crime, brush past your family sitting at the dinner table at 6pm to stick their nose in your back room....... was a stretch of 'legality'........ hence there is a 'law' to 'produce' the firearm, not the steel or timber storage cabinet.
At least that's my take.


Trouble is most shooters have grown accustomed to this as they feel its ok as a condition of the licence, a little price to pay, but significant, considering there is not a suspicion that you've done anything wrong...plus, a couple of burly uniforms at the door has most complying quickly. Intimidation is a well used tool of the popo.
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Re: Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

Post by VICHunter » 17 Oct 2016, 10:36 am

lenners wrote:The copper rang me up this arvo (sunday) to ask me where I am as he was knocking on my door for a surprise inspection. I was out at the time but I am unimpressed with his warrant-less entry of my property. I love living in the communist utopian state known as victoria.


wade06 wrote:Pretty sure police don't need a warrant to inspect your gun safe.


They don't need a "warrant" because you agreed to allow inspections when you obtained your license.

I'm not saying I love the inspections but painting this picture of warrantless raids is being pointlessly dramatic (and false anyway).

We all agreed to inspections, we knew they were coming, so you can hardly be shocked and outraged when one does

But that doesn't mean you're at their beck and call every moment of the day.

Victoria Police wrote:It is a condition of all firearm licences that the holder of the licence must permit a member of police to inspect their storage arrangements at any reasonable time.


If the cop turns up on your doorstep unannounced and you're not home that's their problem.

"No, I'm not home. I won't be home until X time, you're welcome to return then. Otherwise I will be home on day X, Y or Z."

Easy.
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Re: Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

Post by happyhunter » 17 Oct 2016, 10:43 am

They don't need a "warrant" because you agreed to allow inspections when you obtained your license.


Umm.. no. The conditions of having my already obtained decades ago license changed. I don't agree to inspections. Inspections are forced. Agreements are mutual.

Trouble is most shooters have grown accustomed to this as they feel its ok as a condition of the licence,

yep, they have been condistioned.
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Re: Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

Post by d3driver » 08 May 2017, 9:30 am

Current (15th Feb 2017) Victorian information relating to the OP's question:
I sat my FSC a couple of months ago, and the local DFO gave us a specific example of an inspection where the Licensed Owner was at work about 30 minutes away. The inspecting officer asked his wife if they could inspect the firearms while they were there so as to not inconvenience him by making him leave work. She went into the kitchen to the key rack, took a key down and handed it to the inspecting officer saying "I think it's this one...". She was not licensed and had access to the key. They confiscated all his firearms and revoked his license.

They can and do attempt to induce someone to gain unauthorised access to a locked safe. This is still going on. I personally have a key and combo safe. I carry the key, and no one else knows the 8 digit unique code. No one knows where the override key is. I think that this is the only way to be safe (pardon the pun).

Edited to be less generic with the word "entrapment"
Last edited by d3driver on 08 May 2017, 1:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

Post by Download » 08 May 2017, 9:54 am

That's not entrapment.

Entrapment is where an officer encourages you to commit a crime you would not ordinarily commit. For example if an undercover officer tried to sell you stolen goods and you said yes, that would not be entrapment. But if an undercover officer tried to sell you stolen goods, you said no, and then the undercover officer said something like "please man, I need the money to pay for my mum's medical treatment" or "if i don't pay back this mob boss soon he'll kill me" and you said yes, that would be entrapment.

To claim entrapment you must prove first that you would not ordinarily have committed the crime.
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Re: Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

Post by juststarting » 08 May 2017, 10:20 am

Okay, so wife would not ordinarily open the safe she is legally not authorised to do. And you would not ordinarily share the location of a key, which is easy to spot in a small house.

Smells like entrapment. She did the wrong thing. He did the wrong thing. But all in good nature and unknowingly to each other. Kinda classifies as entrapment by your definition. Methinks.


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Re: Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

Post by d3driver » 08 May 2017, 1:33 pm

I have edited my post to be more specific...
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Re: Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

Post by juststarting » 08 May 2017, 1:38 pm

BTW this is all theoretical, but an unlicensed person has no business in the safe. c*** move on police, but rules are clearly defined.

Also, funny story. Been told the same story when I did the course. Only guns were not confiscated and you should word your other half up... Interesting, more gentle approach. I.e. Do the right thing rather then the stick approach.
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Re: Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

Post by Gwion » 08 May 2017, 1:56 pm

Get your wife licenced: problem solved!

Also great for when you spot some critter in the paddock (cat) and know she will lose sight of it while you get the gun (yes, don't mention the war).

Much easier to say, "go get the 223, Honey", than it is to come back with the gun and say, "where the f*** is that cat, I thought you were watching it!!!"

Anyway..... I strongly feel that if you have the responsibility of firearms in the house then those sharing the house should also be well briefed on basic safety and law; even if they aren't licenced. This includes the, "you aren't to touch the keys or safe or allow ANYONE else to..... ESPECIALLY the Police!!!" Talk.
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Re: Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

Post by d3driver » 08 May 2017, 4:43 pm

Gwion wrote:Get your wife licenced: problem solved!

Also great for when you spot some critter in the paddock (cat) and know she will lose sight of it while you get the gun (yes, don't mention the war).

Much easier to say, "go get the 223, Honey", than it is to come back with the gun and say, "where the f*** is that cat, I thought you were watching it!!!"

Anyway..... I strongly feel that if you have the responsibility of firearms in the house then those sharing the house should also be well briefed on basic safety and law; even if they aren't licenced. This includes the, "you aren't to touch the keys or safe or allow ANYONE else to..... ESPECIALLY the Police!!!" Talk.


Unsure if that was directed at me, but in case it was... My wife is from just above Atlanta, Georgia. I probably don't need to say more hahaha
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Re: Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

Post by Gwion » 08 May 2017, 5:32 pm

Nah mate, just general comment and a bit of a whinge about my wife not being able to tell me where that bloody cat went!!! ;) :lol:
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Re: Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

Post by juststarting » 08 May 2017, 5:35 pm

:twisted: There's a joke in here somewhere
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Re: Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

Post by Gwion » 08 May 2017, 5:38 pm

Haha...

You're depraved.
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Re: Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

Post by bladeracer » 08 May 2017, 5:47 pm

d3driver wrote:Current (15th Feb 2017) Victorian information relating to the OP's question:
I sat my FSC a couple of months ago, and the local DFO gave us a specific example of an inspection where the Licensed Owner was at work about 30 minutes away. The inspecting officer asked his wife if they could inspect the firearms while they were there so as to not inconvenience him by making him leave work. She went into the kitchen to the key rack, took a key down and handed it to the inspecting officer saying "I think it's this one...". She was not licensed and had access to the key. They confiscated all his firearms and revoked his license.

They can and do attempt to induce someone to gain unauthorised access to a locked safe. This is still going on. I personally have a key and combo safe. I carry the key, and no one else knows the 8 digit unique code. No one knows where the override key is. I think that this is the only way to be safe (pardon the pun).

Edited to be less generic with the word "entrapment"



When I did the lecture we were given numerous anecdotes, but after thinking about them later on I'm pretty sure it was all just rubbish aimed at keeping us on our toes is all. Plus, I'm certain one of the civilian instructors was drunk as well.
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Re: Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

Post by Jandamurra » 08 May 2017, 5:52 pm

Download wrote:That's not entrapment.

Entrapment is where an officer encourages you to commit a crime you would not ordinarily commit. For example if an undercover officer tried to sell you stolen goods and you said yes, that would not be entrapment. But if an undercover officer tried to sell you stolen goods, you said no, and then the undercover officer said something like "please man, I need the money to pay for my mum's medical treatment" or "if i don't pay back this mob boss soon he'll kill me" and you said yes, that would be entrapment.

To claim entrapment you must prove first that you would not ordinarily have committed the crime.

The problem is that by any reasonable standard, allowing a family member access to your firearms is no crime.
Of course I'm not saying you won't get into trouble if this is found out, but this lack of reasonableness is the basic problem with all of the gun laws that have been brought in since 1996.
If one does tell the wife, make sure she knows to play dumb if a copper comes around. I don't say that flippantly.
I looked up entrapment in Butterworth's Law Dictionary. I'll put the whole article up one day, but for now, let me say I found it equivocal about the matter.
From what I can make out, entrapment is not as firmly established as a defence in Australia as it is in America, but nor is it completely irrelevant.
Download's comment contains a neat explanation of what entrapment is and what it isn't. However, I'm not completely sure if entrapment is in fact only doing what someone wouldn't ordinarily do as explained by Download.
I wonder if the disgusting practice of police scalp hunting of LAFO's by asking their partners for access to their storage has ever been tested in court.
To finish up, I wonder what prompted the cops to do this to this man. Why couldn't they simply have made an agreed time? What were they trying to prove?
Totally gutless, whether it was their call they decided on the spot or whether they were told to go out and do that to someone.
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Re: Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

Post by Jandamurra » 08 May 2017, 6:16 pm

VICHunter wrote:
lenners wrote:The copper rang me up this arvo (sunday) to ask me where I am as he was knocking on my door for a surprise inspection. I was out at the time but I am unimpressed with his warrant-less entry of my property. I love living in the communist utopian state known as victoria.


wade06 wrote:Pretty sure police don't need a warrant to inspect your gun safe.


They don't need a "warrant" because you agreed to allow inspections when you obtained your license.

I'm not saying I love the inspections but painting this picture of warrantless raids is being pointlessly dramatic (and false anyway).

We all agreed to inspections, we knew they were coming, so you can hardly be shocked and outraged when one does

But that doesn't mean you're at their beck and call every moment of the day.

Victoria Police wrote:It is a condition of all firearm licences that the holder of the licence must permit a member of police to inspect their storage arrangements at any reasonable time.


If the cop turns up on your doorstep unannounced and you're not home that's their problem.

"No, I'm not home. I won't be home until X time, you're welcome to return then. Otherwise I will be home on day X, Y or Z."

Easy.

There's a basic common law difficulty in the way one is forced to "agree" to inspections, though.
People have a right to keep and bear arms and if "agreeing " to searches is the only way to gain access to a gun, then that agreement is hardly genuine.
I know that alone won't convince some magistrate to let you off if you're up on a weapons offence, but still, there's a basic difficulty with the system that may eventually prove its downfall.
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Re: Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

Post by Jandamurra » 11 May 2017, 3:36 pm

It turns out Download was correct in his definition of entrapment. Here's my promised entry from Butterworth's Law Dictionary, which is the most-commonly cited law dictionary in Australian courts and is written specifically for Australia:
(Case citations are indicated by... . If anyone happens to want them, I'll supply them.)

Entrapment

The act of a law enforcement agent in inducing a person to commit an offence which the person would not have, or was unlikely to have, otherwise committed... Entrapment is not an offence, but evidence of entrapment may be grounds for the exercise of a judicial discretion to exclude the evidence if the use of those methods amounted to unfairly or improperly obtaining evidence... Entrapment may be a matter of mitigation in sentence...

I wonder who here doesn't think the way the police induce LAFO's partners to provide information they don't think they should know, isn't really unjust? Show of hands, please.
According to the above definition, this police practice my be entrapment after all.
Is it or is it not unfairly or improperly obtaining evidence?

Let's now go to inducing a person to commit an offence which the person would not have, or was unlikely to have, otherwise committed.
How likely is it for a LAFO's partner to give security information to anyone who comes to their property? Potentially flustered and intimidated, and certainly not wanting to make a fuss, the partner is far more likely to give this information to the police than anyone else. It's completely unrealistic to expect otherwise. Yes, I know she shouldn't know it anyway according to the piggies, but that makes me wonder something else. What is the difference between merely knowing the information and actually giving it? Are the police going to go around torturing people to try and find out who really doesn't know the information and who's playing dumb?

It it is entrapment, and it looks like it is, then it's not technically a defence, according to the definition. However, practically speaking, if at some future time a court decides the police have been using entrapment, then evidence of a LAFO's partner knowing something considered not to be divulged, can't be used. Practically speaking, this is as good as a a defence after all.


I'm also wondering about the legality of what happens after the trap is sprung. Does anyone know exactly what happens next? Do the police honor the principle of innocent until proven guilty? How do they know the LAFO willingly provided or negligently allowed their partner access to the information? If the wife (for the sake of argument) went out of her way to obtain this information, aren't she the one who's committed the crime ( not that I regard iot as an actual crime, I must add)?

Entrapment may be a matter of mitigation in sentence

Hasn't exactly been part of the story so far, has it?
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Re: Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

Post by doc » 11 May 2017, 5:54 pm

Jandamurra wrote:I'm also wondering about the legality of what happens after the trap is sprung. Does anyone know exactly what happens next? Do the police honor the principle of innocent until proven guilty? How do they know the LAFO willingly provided or negligently allowed their partner access to the information? If the wife (for the sake of argument) went out of her way to obtain this information, aren't she the one who's committed the crime ( not that I regard iot as an actual crime, I must add)?


You've struck the main problem. The police can confiscate your guns, and choose to go no further if they wish. This means no pending court case to 'have your say'. Your guns gone, and no further action needs to be taken by them.

I'm not sure of the exact process if you choose to initiate & pursue the matter further yourself to get your firearms back - but while you're not 'technically' guilty of a crime at that point - they don't need you to be to take your firearms.
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Re: Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

Post by sungazer » 11 May 2017, 6:38 pm

I can unequivocally say that the practice of making an agreed time to inspect does not always occur in Victoria. I have had the police unexpectedly arrive at the door and say its that time of year we wish to inspect your safe and location of your guns.
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Re: Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

Post by <<Genesis93>> » 11 May 2017, 10:27 pm

sungazer wrote:I can unequivocally say that the practice of making an agreed time to inspect does not always occur in Victoria. I have had the police unexpectedly arrive at the door and say its that time of year we wish to inspect your safe and location of your guns.


Thats the SOP - they rock up at whatever time, or as they've done to me yrs ago called at pm "we're just around the corner.....while we're here...."
- It is fully in your rights to decline and 'request' a more convenient time.... you might be eating tea, putting the kids to bed, about to go out etc..... all fully reasonable response on your behalf.
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Re: Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

Post by WatchyShooter » 13 May 2017, 10:45 pm

Just take a read of what the SAPOL's own reports say

https://www.parliament.sa.gov.au/Houseo ... Police.pdf

I have received a number of complaints concerning the operations of the Firearms Branch of the SA Police in my tenure as the Acting Police Ombudsman relating to the way in which the Firearms Branch enforces the Act and deals with the public who hold firearms licences and who own firearms.
The oft-cited mantra is that firearms ownership is a privilege, not a right. However, the same mantra might apply equally to the driving of a motor vehicle on a public road. I make the observation that the ownership of firearms is a "right" by virtue of the Firearms Act if one is the holder of a valid firearms licence. That right may be removed by administrative action, but such administrative action should not be in any way capricious and should be validly and lawfully exercised.
The complaints I have received in the main have related to the delays which occur in dealing with the Firearms Branch, and the perceived lack of any sense of dealing with matters in a timely fashion. The complaints included what appeared to be an ingrained habit of the Branch in either ignoring correspondence completely, or purporting to answer only after several letters have been sent on the same topic and several months have passed. At one stage I was informed by the Firearms Branch, following a complaint, of a reorganisation which would supposedly lead to better customer service. This does not appear to me to have occurred.
It is also apparent to me that the culture at the Firearms Branch is one of "zero tolerance" when it comes to any infringement of the Firearms Act, however minor or inconsequential. It seems to me, that in cases of inadvertent minor offending by a member of the public with no history of previous offending, the use of a "caution" would be a better option than a prosecution for a criminal offence
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Re: Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

Post by WatchyShooter » 13 May 2017, 10:47 pm

Go read the 2 cases on page 19 about how they took DNA and weapons from people and realise how bad the police can push when you don't fully understand your own rights
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Re: Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

Post by Oldbloke » 14 May 2017, 9:18 am

WatchyShooter wrote:Go read the 2 cases on page 19 about how they took DNA and weapons from people and realise how bad the police can push when you don't fully understand your own rights


Cases 1 & 2 are examples of gross miss use of authority. The police involved should have been disciplined of sacked IMO.
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Re: Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

Post by WatchyShooter » 14 May 2017, 10:04 am

Oldbloke wrote:
WatchyShooter wrote:Go read the 2 cases on page 19 about how they took DNA and weapons from people and realise how bad the police can push when you don't fully understand your own rights


Cases 1 & 2 are examples of gross miss use of authority. The police involved should have been disciplined of sacked IMO.


And just think for a minute, this is just 2 cases as examples, from one state.
Imagine how many other violations and gross misuse of powers are exerted not only on LAFO but all citizens.

The worst thing is that out of all the states SA was the only one with a ombudsmen, but
The next 12 months will probably see the closure of the OPO and the transition of operations to the ICAC.
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Re: Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

Post by Gaznazdiak » 30 Jul 2018, 12:28 pm

Probably jinx myself for bringing it up but I haven't been inspected yet in 3 plus years since I stuck my hand up and became licenced etc.

Is it correct that they make a mutually convenient time in advance or do they just lob in?
I'm in NSW, if that matters, and 35km from the nearest town.
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Re: Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

Post by No1_49er » 30 Jul 2018, 1:03 pm

Gaznazdiak wrote:Probably jinx myself for bringing it up but I haven't been inspected yet in 3 plus years since I stuck my hand up and became licenced etc.
Is it correct that they make a mutually convenient time in advance or do they just lob in?
I'm in NSW, if that matters, and 35km from the nearest town.


I have a feeling that unless they have a Warrant for the specific purpose, and they just "lob in" on the off chance, simply because you are there, having opened the door to them, that you just might be on your way out to an appointment, in which case it is not convenient. You could then negotiate a "mutually agreeable time" for their return for inspection.

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Re: Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

Post by Wylie27 » 30 Jul 2018, 1:30 pm

NSW must be a mutually agreed time organised prior to the meeting

They cannot just lob up and wont..
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Re: Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

Post by Gaznazdiak » 30 Jul 2018, 5:57 pm

Wylie27 wrote:NSW must be a mutually agreed time organised prior to the meeting

They cannot just lob up and wont..


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Re: Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

Post by MontyShooter » 30 Jul 2018, 7:56 pm

They just lob up in Vic.
Did for me anyway at about 8:30 one sat night.
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