Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

[dpskipper]

From reading though these posts its seems to be "hit and miss" some of the coppers are really nice, others obviously don't want to be there/don't like gun owners. The best advice is always be prepared because the day you forget one small thing could be the day they inspect your safe and find one stray bullet.

[sakoBC]

My experience has generally been positive and I have been inspected six (6) times in the last six years.

The officer who did the first inspection noticed that instead of 10mm dyna bolts I had used 8mm bolts. He told me that technically I was in breach of the regulations and he was within his rights to take all firearms and I would have to go through a lengthy process to recover them. He gave me an opportunity to change the bolts because he also noted that I had used ten bolts to secure the safe to the wall and floor (it wasn’t going anywhere). Fair call and very fair approach to the situation. I changed the bolts the next day.

The last 3 inspections were all triggered by address changes. I was contacted and inspected within a month of changing address. I ended up being inspected by the same officer 3 times in 18 months. All very professional and courteous.

The only negative experience that I have had is when the inspecting officer pulled up in front of my next door neighbour’s driveway in a marked patrol car. Naturally, the neighbour went out and asked him why he was there. He told them that he was going to my place to do a gun safe inspection. Until that day, no one in my suburb knew that I had any firearms. Not happy.

To Skipper’s point, you do need to be vigilant and 100% compliant. Another officer noticed a single .22 round in my dad’s old rabbiting cartridge belt that was sitting on top of the safe (kudos to the very observant officer). The cartridge had a projectile, no powder, but did have a 40 year old unfired primer (I had always assumed (my mistake) that it was a dummy round as I knew it had no powder). The fact that the projectile would not have made it out of the barrel if fired, was irrelevant. Technically, I had live ammunition unsecured. The officer explained the situation and very politely asked me to store the round in an appropriately secured container or safe. If the officer was looking to make an example of someone, the outcome could have been very different.

[dpskipper]

Thanks for the post sako, I'l remember not to change my address.
As much I know there are lots of nice coppers, if I get an inspection I can't shake off this feeling murphy's law will drop by, say g'day and give me the worst experience.

[Jandamurra]

Maybe it's random in some states but not here. A ny change of address will flag you and the last two I have been given no notice. The first I knew was cops banging at the front door, both times it was after 8pm.

Try having a conversation with them about required notice and they hit you with veiled threats. Also, if you decide not to answer the door expect your mobile to start ring. I have it on good authority that if you pretend nobody is home and they can prove otherwise you will get done for perjury.

Ugh. What a horrible country we live in these days.

[happyhunter]

The disappointing part in all this is some people are using the word 'positive' in describing the police performing a warrantless entry to their home. Now that's conditioning.

[dpskipper]

I know, we didn't make the laws. But we have to live with them...

[<<Genesis93>>]

The disappointing part in all this is some people are using the word 'positive' in describing the police performing a warrantless entry to their home. Now that's conditioning.

Officially sanctioned home invasion .....
Some even appear to look forward to it ...

I'd like someone to point out in law (vic) where it allows the police to inspect your storage.....

Anyone who can do it wins the prize.

[bladeracer]

The disappointing part in all this is some people are using the word 'positive' in describing the police performing a warrantless entry to their home. Now that's conditioning.

Officially sanctioned home invasion .....
Some even appear to look forward to it ...

I'd like someone to point out in law (vic) where it allows the police to inspect your storage.....

Anyone who can do it wins the prize.

Interesting point.
All I can find is that it's a condition of having a licence, if you don't allow inspection then you are not compliant with the conditions of your licence, so no more licence.

"Storage Inspections
It is a condition of all firearm licences that the holder of the licence must permit a member of police to inspect their storage arrangements at any reasonable time."

It is an offence not to produce a _firearm_ for inspection, but that doesn't allow entry of property to do so.

"FIREARMS ACT 1996 - SECT 120
Offence not to produce firearm for inspection
S. 120(1) amended by No. 37/2014 s. 10(Sch. item 63.5).
(1) A person in whose name a firearm is registered must produce the firearm for inspection at any reasonable time and at any reasonably convenient place when so requested by a police officer.
Penalty: 60 penalty units or 12 months imprisonment."

And other authorised officers are also able to demand to inspect your firearms in certain circumstances:
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/ ... s153a.html

[<<Genesis93>>]

Bazinga....

offence not to 'produce' your firearms...

"officer, please wait on the front porch while I 'produce' my firearms...."

[doc]

It's not a game I'd be willing to play. We can discuss the difference between acts, regulations, and license conditions but at the end of the day you don't have a leg to stand on.

It may not be an offense to deny them access to your storage, but we have learned with firearms that we have no rights - it's only a privilege that can easily be taken away from us.

Remember: They have the right to confiscate firearms immediately from us if they receive any allegation against us of us making a threat - no evidence required.

Even if we're not guilty. We haven't broken any regulations or laws - but they still have that right - and we won't get our firearms back until we prove otherwise.

The same provision would no doubt be used if we denied access to police to inspect our storage. We can deny them, and we don't break any acts or regulations by doing so - but they still have the capability to suspend or cancel our license, and then take our firearms away.

I imagine the legal process would be something like this:

1) Deny police access to storage and only present firearms for inspection. (Legally within our right to do so. License condition is something else but we break no laws by denying them the right, only the condition of holding the license).

2) Police cancel or suspend our license because they have the legal authority to do this because we didn't comply with our license condition to give them access to inspect storage.

3) Now police have legal authority to enter, and size our firearms because we have now breached the law by having firearms without a current license.

Make no mistake - the police hold all the cards.

As mentioned... not a game I'm willing to play. Plus - the guys you're giving a hard time at your door are for the most part the good guys, that like us, are only doing what they're told. I find that most general duty officers are intelligent, polite and good to get along with. You can argue with them all you want, but your message won't get through to the powers that be who really have control. All you end up doing is creating bad relations between LFO's and GD police which ends up working against us all in the long run and no good will come of it.

[wannabustbunnies]

Hi all, long time lurker but first time posting.
I took a proactive approach to my gun safe inspection when my partner and myself got our Cat A & B licences last year.
I thought being newly licenced and having a PTA in I would likely get an inspection soon. I called the local inspection officer to come and check my installation so if he wasn't happy I would have a chance to fix it before I picked up my first firearm. It was all good and he gave me the event number of the inspection.
Recently my partner submitted her first PTA and as we share the same safe I contacted the firearms registry with my partners details and the inspection event number and so far so good

[wade06]

I haven't had my safe inspected yet but generally cops are pretty good. Be a tool and you will create problems for yourself.

As far as others knowing where your gun safe key is... THE LAW SAYS THEY CAN"T. Either don't tell your wife/child or make sure they know to act dumb. If your wife/child knows where the key is, gives it to the cops and you get busted its your fault...

[bladeracer]

I haven't had my safe inspected yet but generally cops are pretty good. Be a tool and you will create problems for yourself.

As far as others knowing where your gun safe key is... THE LAW SAYS THEY CAN"T. Either don't tell your wife/child or make sure they know to act dumb. If your wife/child knows where the key is, gives it to the cops and you get busted its your fault...

I haven't been inspected either since getting my Victorian Licence when we moved here in 2014.
But I got my first firearms licence in '80 in WA, then an SA licence, then back to WA (same licence number I'd had years before), and now Victoria. I'm guessing my past history gives them some idea that an inspection is probably not a priority.
But very soon I'll be into the "more than fifteen firearms" so I expect they'll want to inspect my alarm system.

Police explained to me the gun safe keys as being no different to having kids or other family members in your house that aren't allowed to drive - you don't have to hide the car keys from them (unless they're a problem), they're just not allowed to use them.

[sally-bee]

Bazinga....

offence not to 'produce' your firearms...

"officer, please wait on the front porch while I 'produce' my firearms...."

Still on your property.. They better go wait on the road and you can carry them out for the neighbours to see

[doc]

Police explained to me the gun safe keys as being no different to having kids or other family members in your house that aren't allowed to drive - you don't have to hide the car keys from them (unless they're a problem), they're just not allowed to use them.

This is an interesting approach, not one I'm convinced I'd like to test.

The regs state:

Sch. 4 item 2(2A) inserted by No. 28/2003 s. 75(2).

(2A) The key to the container in which the firearm is stored must—

(a) be carried by the holder of the licence; or

(b) be kept securely in a separate room from the container—

when the container is not being accessed.

I'd be interested to see the regs in regards to car key storage requirements, but doubt it's worded the same. If it is - then yes, you could compare car keys, but if not then it would fall to interpretation of 'kept securely' - which I think being accessible by other non-licensed people wouldn't suffice.

(Just remember - just because a police tells you their understanding of the law doesn't mean that it's right or you can depend on it, and it's definitely no defense if you get done and 'a cop said it was ok').

Plus, since we have stories of people who have been done for their spouse knowing where the key is and giving it to the police I think this would be something not worth testing either.

However in the end, I think most police couldn't give a rip if your spouse knows where the key is or not - provided they don't tell them that they know.

[bladeracer]

Police explained to me the gun safe keys as being no different to having kids or other family members in your house that aren't allowed to drive - you don't have to hide the car keys from them (unless they're a problem), they're just not allowed to use them.

This is an interesting approach, not one I'm convinced I'd like to test.

The regs state:

Sch. 4 item 2(2A) inserted by No. 28/2003 s. 75(2).

(2A) The key to the container in which the firearm is stored must—

(a) be carried by the holder of the licence; or

(b) be kept securely in a separate room from the container—

when the container is not being accessed.

I'd be interested to see the regs in regards to car key storage requirements, but doubt it's worded the same. If it is - then yes, you could compare car keys, but if not then it would fall to interpretation of 'kept securely' - which I think being accessible by other non-licensed people wouldn't suffice.

(Just remember - just because a police tells you their understanding of the law doesn't mean that it's right or you can depend on it, and it's definitely no defense if you get done and 'a cop said it was ok').

Plus, since we have stories of people who have been done for their spouse knowing where the key is and giving it to the police I think this would be something not worth testing either.

However in the end, I think most police couldn't give a rip if your spouse knows where the key is or not - provided they don't tell them that they know.

You raise another good point.
I know here in Victoria it is illegal to leave your vehicle unlocked, but I don't know if that law also references securing the keys.

[<<Genesis93>>]

haha in the great socialist republic of Victoria it is illegal to drink-car-key... thats kind of like drink driving, but its drinking alcoholic beverages while in possession of you car key because you might drive....not driving - don't even near to be touching or near your car.

YAY for democrazy

Its also as of NOW a specific offence to moon. Yup, could face 6 months in the klink if you bare your 'anus', or as Borat says Anoos.

What a sad sad time we live in.

[darwindingo]

Perhaps it would be permissible to MOON if you pay for a permit ?..

I haven't seen anyone do it for ages, apparently it's common enough to make it illegal though Or they are running low on BS to legislate...



One for the legislators....



Jeff

[happyhunter]

Perhaps it would be permissible to MOON if you pay for a permit ?..

I haven't seen anyone do it for ages, apparently it's common enough to make it illegal though Or they are running low on BS to legislate...



One for the legislators....



Jeff

Last time we did that it ended in a road rage incdent. The dude pulled up at the lights and came up yelling and screaming blue murder until he realised there was one brother, two mates, a dog and myself in the car

[<<Genesis93>>]

why create more offences??

“If you contemplate a situation where it’s not (an offence) you could have people simply doing it everyday with no possibility of any kind of sanction,” Mr Pakula said.

ya, people will be walking down the street just..... randomly mooning and if they do...luckily they can be 'sanctioned' to protect our dignity as a community...

and just quietly, lets sneak in;

The act also outlaws singing “an obscene song or ballad” and behaving in a “riotous, indecent, offensive or insulting manner”.

Yup. a free society when someone can decide to be offended or insulted, this sounds EXACTLY like an anticipation of the FEDS removing those words from Commonwealth laws....so the Socialist State of VIC is putting their backup in place.

[darwindingo]

Ahh, the good old legislation state ( Last visit to Vic I saw a number plate that said education state, But legislation state would seem more appropriate)..

Gee Moon Rage HH, wow. . I just laugh, when I see something like that... People are getting soft.....



Jeff

[sakoBC]

The disappointing part in all this is some people are using the word 'positive' in describing the police performing a warrantless entry to their home. Now that's conditioning.

I understand what you are saying, but it is not optional my friend.
"It is a condition on a licence that the licensee allows inspection by police of the safe keeping and storage facilities for the firearm at a mutually agreed time - section 19(2)(c) of the Act."

All of my inspections have started with an officer calling me to arrange a time that is convenient for me. This has often meant that they had to wait more than a week to meet with me.

It was a condition of my licence when I applied, so I can't really complain about it after the fact. Personally, I don't have a problem with a pre-agreed inspection visit. In the event that my firearms are ever stolen I have evidence that I was inspected six times and found to be complying with the storage requirements every time.

[happyhunter]

The disappointing part in all this is some people are using the word 'positive' in describing the police performing a warrantless entry to their home. Now that's conditioning.

I understand what you are saying, but it is not optional my friend.
"It is a condition on a licence that the licensee allows inspection by police of the safe keeping and storage facilities for the firearm at a mutually agreed time - section 19(2)(c) of the Act."

All of my inspections have started with an officer calling me to arrange a time that is convenient for me. This has often meant that they had to wait more than a week to meet with me.

It was a condition of my licence when I applied, so I can't really complain about it after the fact. Personally, I don't have a problem with a pre-agreed inspection visit. In the event that my firearms are ever stolen I have evidence that I was inspected six times and found to be complying with the storage requirements every time.

When I walked into the cop shop at age 12 with the old man and paid 9 bucks for my license there was no requirement to allow storage in inspections. When I turned 18 and my junior permit became a full license, there was still no requirement to allow entry for inspections. Therefore, I don't think you understand what I'm saying my friend.

[doc]

You raise another good point.
I know here in Victoria it is illegal to leave your vehicle unlocked, but I don't know if that law also references securing the keys.

It's under the Victorian Road Safety Road Rules 2009 (SR95/2009) penalty code 2135 under the miscellaneous section:

Leave motor vehicle unattended with keys in ignition, motor running, brakes not secured or doors unlocked

... and incurs a $148 penalty. Unlike the firearms act, I can not find anywhere about having the keys secured - just the above, with the keys in ignition, so I would suspect that the ol 'if car keys can be kept in view of non-licensed drivers, so should firearm safe keys' wouldn't fly.

Another rule that some NSW people here probably aren't aware they're breaking is that you must stop at a train crossing (regardless of whether the boom gates are operating or not) and check for trains if you are carrying "flammable, explosive or dangerous" goods.

I haven't got the direct link to the regulation, but you can see it referenced at the bottom of the page at http://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/roads/safety- ... sings.html

Whether this relates only to placarded loads, or any is not mentioned, so under the strict letter of the law of our over regulated states, I'd say it's possible. In fact, I dare say that almost everyone these days is breaking laws - that there is a regulation to trip everyone - it's just that we just aren't all aware of what those laws are.

Leave your window down on a hot day more than 5cm - you can be booked. (Google Julian Harris Window Fine)

Use your horn to 'toot toot' goodbye to someone - technically illegal...

We're still a country full of convicts by the looks of it, we just haven't all been caught yet for these rules we're all breaking.

[sakoBC]

When I walked into the cop shop at age 12 with the old man and paid 9 bucks for my license there was no requirement to allow storage in inspections. When I turned 18 and my junior permit became a full license, there was still no requirement to allow entry for inspections. Therefore, I don't think you understand what I'm saying my friend.[/quote]

Sure mate, I see where you are coming from. No offence intended, I just didn't understand the background to your comments.
There was a time when you didn’t have to show 100 points of ID to open an account; you could get away with drink driving because there was no RBT; you didn’t need a boat licence etc.
Laws change. Are they reasonable changes to the way that we live or are they simply an erosion of our civil freedoms? I think you could put forward a case for both points of view

[Ariat]

Use your horn to 'toot toot' goodbye to someone - technically illegal...

Uh oh. I must have a few life sentences waiting for me already then

[lenners]

The copper rang me up this arvo (sunday) to ask me where I am as he was knocking on my door for a surprise inspection. I was out at the time but I am unimpressed with his warrant-less entry of my property. I love living in the communist utopian state known as victoria.

[wade06]

Pretty sure police don't need a warrant to inspect your gun safe. If guns and ammo are stored properly there is no issue.

Car licences come with rules to follow... Same with guns. I don't agree with all of them but generally they are ok.

[doc]

I believe that our laws allow anyone an implied right to come onto your property and up to your door. No warrant required, because everyone holds that right. That right can be revoked by you upon contact. (ie, asking the person to leave your property). I also believe that this right is also revoked for door to door salesmen if you have a sign up there saying no salesmen, etc.

I haven't got the time to go searching at the moment, but if you think it about it, it makes sense. How else is someone supposed to deliver a parcel, deliver pizza, or otherwise contact you in person if you're in your dwelling.

As such - the police officer was well within their rights to knock on your front door without a warrant - for any reason - whether you're a firearm owner, or not, just like anyone else is. It is then your right to ask them to leave if you choose to.

I agree that 'surprise inspections' are pathetic, and I can't imagine what they would prove. If there's a gun missing from your safe because you've loaned it, you simply tell them who has it. If there's a gun out at the time, and you're cleaning it - it's my understanding this is legal too - so I don't know what would be achieved by a surprise inspection.

I suspect that surprise inspections are more about police who find themselves with a quiet shift and time to kill so they fill in their job sheet with inspections to show they've been still working.

[MR. WINCHESTER]

I'm pretty sure ( has been highlighted HERE before ) that within the regulations ( N.S.W. ) 'safe storage' inspections, are to be carried out at a MUTUALLY AGREED TIME.