Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

[Mick280]

Have only ever been inspected the one time.
They gave me plenty of notice, Where on time and where a real nice couple of blokes.
Had a cuppa and a Tim Tam and where genuinely interested in my gear.
All over,Quiet a pleasant experience.
Mick

[RoginaJack]

My experience was nothing but a pleasure.

The police weapons inspector rang, made appointment, I was late getting back & they knocked on the door, the Boss explained I wasn't back yet and no silly trick questions, they waited until I got home and then carried out the inspection.

We swapped a few stories and that was that. No worries and no problem.

[SendIt]

We swapped a few stories and that was that. No worries and no problem.

Some of the like a good yarn. You read a few where they end up talking shop over a cup of tea about something in the safe they took a liking too and wanted more info on

[Title_II]

Morning,

I've been reading a few comments and stories on people who've had unpleasant experiences with their safe inspections.

A common thread seems to be if the license holder isn't home, they say to the wife/son/girlfriend whoever that if they can just open the safe for them now they won't have to come back later and bother the owner.

Then if they open the safe everybody gets busted for improper storage, access without a license and whatever else it is.

Is that not entrapment?

Does that fly here or is it mostly an American thing?

I know this is old and I am not sure I understand the entire question. But I believe the only state that has any laws about gun safes is California. There might be another but there aren't many. I don't believe there is any state where your spouse having access to a firearm would be illegal.

[Arth]

I know this is old and I am not sure I understand the entire question. But I believe the only state that has any laws about gun safes is California. There might be another but there aren't many. I don't believe there is any state where your spouse having access to a firearm would be illegal.

Pretty sure he's just asking is the entrapment defence an American thing.

Every state here in Oz requires only appropriately licensed persons have access to firearms. Definitely not OK for the wife to know the safe combination if she has no license here.

[David Brown]

Old thread, but……..

Are there any of you that have good grounds to believe that audit inspections have resulted in break in/theft shortly after? If you would prefer, PM the details. I am genuinely interested.

[GLS_1956]

How odd that the spouse of gun owner should not know the combination to a safe, firearm or otherwise, that is in their home. Here in my home state, Oklahoma, my wife, now ex-wife, knew where the keys to the gun safe were and I, my mother and brothers know/know where the combinations to dad's gun safe were at as well.

[Gwion]

How odd that the spouse of gun owner should not know the combination to a safe, firearm or otherwise, that is in their home. Here in my home state, Oklahoma, my wife, now ex-wife, knew where the keys to the gun safe were and I, my mother and brothers know/know where the combinations to dad's gun safe were at as well.

No unlicenced person is to have access to firearms.

If she (or he) wants access to the keys or combination, they need to get a licence. Helps when you can call them in town to pick up some powder, projectiles or loaded ammo, too!

[Title_II]

Crikie!

[Gwion]

Crikie!

Yep. My wife is not really interested in shooting. She knows how, has a licence and owns a 22lr for when she needs it if i'm not around (sick/dying sheep for example) but she really couldn't be bothered with it all. But she IS licenced because it's handy, for instance, when a feral cat is wandering across a paddock and i can tell (sorry... ask nicely... NEVER try telling her anything!) her to grab a rifle while i keep an eye on the mongrel cat. She often grabs a brick of 22lr for me as well, which she can not do with out a licence.

[Title_II]

I think we only have about 3 states that require licenses to own certain types of guns. And maybe 2 more that require licenses to buy. You probably know this, but that's out of 50 states. Not 57 like Obama says. I can only guess he is thinking of Heinz 57 sauce? Meh, who cares. Another pebble on the Mount Everest of retarded commies.

[No1Mk3]

G'day Guliver,
Before you splash out money and buy a safe, talk to your pistol club secretary first. Some clubs have storage requirements that exceed the legal minimum, and your safe may not be approved by the club. If that occurs, your Licence application, or PTA, will not be approved leading to delays and further costs, Cheers.

[Khan]

Are there any of you that have good grounds to believe that audit inspections have resulted in break in/theft shortly after? If you would prefer, PM the details. I am genuinely interested.

No proof, and it's been a while since I've been up on UHF radios but when I last did the research before buying one about 10 years ago there were some that had the frequency blocks police use excluded, and other's that didn't.

It wasn't a matter of modifying or hacking the 'other' ones to pick up anything illegally either, just pick up an off the shelf Uniden for $400 and you could listen to the cops chatter.

Very possible no-good types did this and if an address of information that only needed a little deduction to figure out was broadcast they could hear it. Whether that's the same these days or the cops are encrypting their talk now I don't know, but it's definitely been an issue/concern in very recent years (and possibly still is).

[happyhunter]

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[bigfellascott]

Make sure you answer the "What's the reason for your firearms" with hunting or target shooting etc, the cop that asked me that said the amount of people who say for self defence etc is not uncommon, she's caught a few out that way and they end up losing their licenses apparently.

[Rakk]

the cop that asked me that said the amount of people who say for self defence etc is not uncommon

*facepalm*

[adam]

Make sure you answer the "What's the reason for your firearms" with hunting or target shooting etc, the cop that asked me that said the amount of people who say for self defence etc is not uncommon, she's caught a few out that way and they end up losing their licenses apparently.

It's not really plausible anyway in Australia. Guns locked away. Ammunition in separate container. Keys in another room. I imagine by the time it would take me to get my firearms out, get the ammo and load it to use as self defense I would have created more risk by not dealing with the immediate threat through other means.

Strewth - with all the security it takes me ages just to get ready to go out on a normal outing.

Far better to have other options available. Take Germany for instance - flare guns are becoming extremely popular in Germany for self defense with the issues they are experiencing.

Whatever form of self defense that is chosen for the house - it needs to be legal, and so left of field that neither the authorities, or the criminals will anticipate you to have it. That way the authorities can't take it away from you or ban it, and the criminals won't be expecting it.

[Gregg]

Whatever form of self defense that is chosen for the house - it needs to be legal, and so left of field that neither the authorities, or the criminals will anticipate you to have it. That way the authorities can't take it away from you or ban it, and the criminals won't be expecting it.

Might have to look at getting an "ornamental" mace for "decoration" purposes

[AnotherMisfire]

To use entrapment as a defence I believe you literally have to be forced into doing it under some threat. If someone says "Hey, can you get me some pot" and you say "sure", that's not exactly twisting your arm.

I think you also need to have no predisposition to committing the crime. This is the key point on the safe inspection thing.

If the cops were threatening your unlicensed wife (or whoever) saying that she needs to open the safe "or else" and made her steal your safe key under threat or something like that, that would be one thing

Yup, it's sec 31 of the criminal code up here in Qld. The term for it here is duress. If your dealing in civil law then it's known as the principle of duress.

"Justification and excuse—compulsion
(1) A person is not criminally responsible for an act or omission, if the person does or omits to do the act under any of the following circumstances, that is to say—
(a) in execution of the law;
(b) in obedience to the order of a competent authority which he or she is bound by law to obey, unless the order is manifestly unlawful;"

At the end of the day, el wifey shouldn't have access.

[bigtone]

The swines turned up at my in laws to do an impromptu inspection when all the men were out on another farm. They did ask the mother in law to open the safe knowing fully that she had no weapons licence. Luckily she could not find the key!
Safe inspection at my place was a giggle though when the piggy asked whether my 308 was a rim fire or centre fire! They were only capable of checking numbers and not much else!

[Modena]

I just did a firearms safety course in Victoria and asked the DFO this exact scenario. His reply was clear, it is not an offence under the act for your spouse or other adult in the house to know where the keys are located. It is an offence for them to open the safe and use the firearms. He used an analogy of your car - your kids know where the keys are, they can take the keys and sit in the car, but it is an offence for them to drive the car without a license.

My Mrs will be knowing where the key is, and if the coppers turn up she will give them the key and they can open the safe.

As an aside, my ammo will be stored in a separate small safe which has a digital lock, she won't know the combination to this as she has no need to know. If the copper wants to see inside that safe, and they shouldn't need to because an inspection of the gun safe shows that there is no ammo in there, then they will have to get me at home to open the ammo safe.

[happyhunter]

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[<<Genesis93>>]

Knowing 'where' the keys are and having 'access' to the keys are 2 different considerations....

If you're not home
There is NO inspection -
Your family members should all be made aware of how to handle a police visit....apart from ID, reason for visit etc...any inspection is at your convenience not that of the police.....

[AnotherMisfire]

My Mrs will be knowing where the key is, and if the coppers turn up she will give them the key and they can open the safe.

Bad idea for a number of reasons (the letting them inspect when you're not there - not the part about her knowing where the keys are, that part's your business.)

Part of the National Agreement in 1996 was: "submit to a mutually arranged (with due recognition of privacy) inspection by licensing authorities of storage facilities".

They have no right of entry for a normal inspection. If they have a search warrant then they can come in and use the keys - of not they can arrange a suitable time for you to be there.

[brett1868]

Keep in mind gents that each state has it's own regulations in regard to safe storage so what's "legal" in one state may be an offence in others. In NSW an unlicensed person must not be able to access the firearms, hence why my missus / son have no idea where the safe keys are or what the code is. Neither of them have any idea of what's in the safe apart from a firearm of sorts so there's another layer of security. I don't list my firearms on the forum though occasionally I have listed them when asked, suffice to say I have more then 1 and probably the key factor in my security is that not all of them are stored at home.

[<<Genesis93>>]

My Mrs will be knowing where the key is, and if the coppers turn up she will give them the key and they can open the safe.

Bad idea for a number of reasons (the letting them inspect when you're not there - not the part about her knowing where the keys are, that part's your business.)

Part of the National Agreement in 1996 was: "submit to a mutually arranged (with due recognition of privacy) inspection by licensing authorities of storage facilities".

They have no right of entry for a normal inspection. If they have a search warrant then they can come in and use the keys - of not they can arrange a suitable time for you to be there.

Apart from the NFA not being law per se.... the agreement was translated into state specific Firearm/weapons Acts.... you will note that wording states 'a' mutually arranged inspection, and there is a huge different between a single inspection at the time of licensing (as I would interpret) and ONGOING RANDOM inspections for the LIFE of your firearm licence....inspectionS. Continuous random inspections of law abiding citizens - for no reason other than being on a list smells a lot like a "papers please" police state.... to some anyway.

Also note when the Popo knock on your door demanding inspection.... there are 2 possible processes there, FIREARM inspection, which is a clear provision and STORAGE inspection, which are 2 separate things.

Consider this;

The licence can only be issued (actually must NOT be issued, by law, unless.....) if the Chief Commissioner is satisfied that the storage requirement can be complied with (S17, Vic FA Act);

".....the applicant can comply with the storage requirements set out by or under the Act";

The only way to be satisfied is to inspect.... to conduct the "a" inspection....at licensing time.

I put to you that subsequent to the "a" inspection there is no provision for ongoing inspections!! There are the ongoing provisions for the inspection of firearms...

Theres the ;

'Offence not to produce firearm for inspection' which carried the penalty of 12months (assault someone and you'll get a lot less...that discussion is for another day)

Therefore, I would suggest that clear legal provisions to continually inspect the storage do not exist under law...and should a knock at the door require an inspection (actually the production of firearms for inspection) hosting the popo in the dining room while you visit the back room/shed/garage to RETRIEVE the firearms and place them on the dining table.... could not be construed as non-compliance.... particularly so if an inspection of the storage had already occurred at licensing time...

Whatdayathink....

Necessary Rider: this is discussion not advice....

[Modena]

Genesis93, I think it's reasonable to have multiple inspections. People change their safes (upgrade), move house, and purchase additional firearms, no?

As for inspection at licensing time, who's to say I have a firearm just because I have a license? No, inspection at licensing time wont work, you aren't necessarily going to purchase a storage receptacle and firearms AT licensing time, or even within weeks of license start date? Additional inspection(s) in my view may be warranted by additional PTA/purchases. Seems logical to me.

[Gwion]

Had an inspection when we first registered a rifle or applied for a PTA (wife's 22lr). This inspection was delayed twice, once because something came up for me and another time because something came up for the inspector. Upon inspection, i had a loaned rifle in the safe, which was noted and checked without issue.
Then, second rifle (my 223rem), the PTA took it's sweet time arriving. I made a call to the department asking for a progress update and was kindly told it was just waiting on a storage inspection. I pointed out that we had only had an inspection at this address 3 months prior. A quick check of facts was made while i was on the line, PTA was stamped and arrived 2 days later.

This suggests two things to me:
a/ dealings with firearms departments (whatever they are called in your state) do not have to be torturous or irritating; i have since had very helpful dealings with the Tas department as well, and
b/ it seems the requirement for storage inspection arises on the registration/application to register your first firearm. In cases such as Bentaz, where licencing and registration are transferred from interstate, the requirement for a storage inspection may take more of a back seat.

Just drawing conclusions; which isn't always the best idea; but that's the way it looks to me.

[<<Genesis93>>]

Genesis93, I think it's reasonable to have multiple inspections. People change their safes (upgrade), move house, and purchase additional firearms, no?

As for inspection at licensing time, who's to say I have a firearm just because I have a license? No, inspection at licensing time wont work, you aren't necessarily going to purchase a storage receptacle and firearms AT licensing time, or even within weeks of license start date? Additional inspection(s) in my view may be warranted by additional PTA/purchases. Seems logical to me.

The inspection at/after licensing is referring to the NFA agreement wording.....

Council resolved.... that the licence ......be issued subject to undertakings to comply with storage requirements, to provide details of proposed storage provisions at the time of licensing, and submit to a mutually arranged (with due recognition of privacy) inspection by licensing authorities of storage facilities;

Coupled with the state law that the licence be issued only once satisfied....etc.....

As far as reasonable for inspections.... I absolutely reject that its reasonable for the 'law' to come into your home regardless of the hour, the arrangement, to inspect a firearm storage, for a lawfully owned firearm in the hope that they will find a non-conformance..... if they assumed it was all good then why the inspection!!.. I would accept the inspection regime as equitable ONLY when I see reports of random firearm inspections of UNlicensed firearm owners with UNregistered firearms..... in the meantime however I will continue to comply as that separates US from THEM....

[Gwion]

You can't transfer a licence to Victoria. I had to do everything from scratch same as if I'd never seen or held a firearm before.

Well, that's a bit strange then, isn't it!??!

Come to think of it, people who have moved to Tas tell me the same thing. Well, stumps me why you haven't had an inspection yet!??!

As i said, i was only drawing conclusions, which isn't always a good idea!