Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

[Gwion]

and rant less

Have you been to a forum before?

[<<Genesis93>>]

Police are REQUIRED by LAW to make an appointment at mutual convenience with respect to personal privacy. It is NOT an unwarranted SEARCH. If you feel you are being searched and unfairly treated, REPORT it. INSIST inspections are at a time that suits YOU and make sure everything is in order for it.

I have nothing against safe storage requirements and mutually arranged inspections. If it prevents any accidental deaths through unsecured firearms then it's a good thing.

Yes, it's annoying, inconvenient and doesn't solve gun crime but reading people constantly misrepresenting the facts or failing to understand your personal rights or the laws is as bad as seeing all the completely unfounded crap that irrational anti gunners spout incessantly. It does nothing to address the issue or fix the problem.

In Tas??

Not in Vic.
The storage inspection is covered in the schedule to the FA;

-----------------------------------
SCHEDULE 1
GENERAL CONDITIONS FOR LICENCES UNDER PART 2
1 The holder of the licence must permit a member of the police force to inspect the holder's storage arrangements at any reasonable time.
-----------------------------------

Whats a reasonable time? 7pm? 8pm? 6am?
Yes, you could send them away if you were eating dinner, or putting the kids to bed.....but who decides on the 'reasonableness' of the time? I'm not sure about the non-compliance, if say you refused an inspection on the grounds of dis-agreeing with the reasonable-ness of the time if that means an automatic licence cancellation - given that an inspection is a condition of the licence!!??

Note the storage inspection has nothing to do with firearm inspection.... it a different thing that falls under section 120 of the Act;

120 Offence not to produce firearm for inspection
(1) A person in whose name a firearm is registered must produce the firearm for inspection at any reasonable time and at any reasonably convenient place when so requested by a member of the police force.
Penalty: 60 penalty units or 12 months imprisonment.

So if the 'law' rocks up at the door in the evening, at say 6pm - 'demanding' to see your storage..... and your firearms..... and you say "sorry officers, its not really convenient" Then maybe they'll apologise for disturbing your family time and suggest a phone call when more convenient..... or......maybe they'll write you up for refusing to 'produce the firearms for inspection' and also cancel your licence.

[Gwion]

I'd like to see some definition on 'reasonable time'. I will look it up but not while on my phone at the moment.

At 'anytime' and 'any reasonable time' are two very different terms.

[brett1868]

Good point Genesis93, much will come down to the interpretation of the words "reasonably convenient" and rather then the burden of proof being on the cops, you'll have to prove why it was inconvenient for you at that time. Getting charged with an offence, even if found innocent causes all kinds of grief with your license. They should make it similar to produce license and allow you a period of time to produce said firearm before any charges can be laid.
I've gotten into the habit that all firearms are locked up unless being worked on or being used, any active component is under lock and key when not in my immediate presence to the point that I have a small safe under the bench so I can easily place gear in if I have to duck inside for lunch or visit the bathroom.
Here's the stupid part, if I were to leave a single 22LR round on the bench unsecured I'd get done for not store ammunition properly BUT I can leave a toolbox with 2000 rounds in it on the bench so long as its got a padlock on it and that's perfectly legal.

[Gwion]

Yep... can't find any definition of 'any reasonable time' in Victorian act.

Cant find any reference to inspections in the act itself, only to warrant to search premises. Regulations also seem to only define powers to search in relation to reasonably suspected breaches of the act in a public place.

Can anyone point me to where it defines these powers to enter and inspect with in the act or regulations?

All i can find is a statement on Vicpol website and a legal aid reference to the general powers of police to enter and inspect subject to powers outline in licencing regulations; similar to inspection of licenced liquor premises.

[happyhunter]

Police are REQUIRED by LAW to make an appointment at mutual convenience with respect to personal privacy. It is NOT an unwarranted SEARCH. If you feel you are being searched and unfairly treated, REPORT it. INSIST inspections are at a time that suits YOU and make sure everything is in order for it.

You might find you are wrong about that statement. They have no obligation to make prior arrangement. If the turn up unnanounced you can ask then to leave but I can tell you from experience that won't work in your favor.

Report them to who? The police? When it comes to firearms you have no rights. If you are ok with inspections then you are saying you are happy to have no rights.

[<<Genesis93>>]

........

Wanna bet?


.....

Yup. bet you a box of 22 ammo! (Its quite expensive in these parts...

We are the easy target due to the misunderstanding that we do not have a right to arms for defense.... its actually legislated in at least 2 states, VIC, and the ACT, but conveniently overlooked or dismissed...... we are the testbed and your protection is obviously the 2A, along with the sheer number of armed civilian and presumably the proportion ready to use them to defend the right.......

I never suggested 'they' are succeeding, but each of the very few times a semi-auto is supposedly used in a killing the whole media in the USA as well as locally jumps up and down for weeks about the terror and devastation caused by 'assault weapons', "wont someone do something for the children...." even though NO ONE has ever, neither are they able to say how many victims are killed by someone wielding a semi-auto.....it could be as little as 30 or 20 or less, across the whole country.... one day the media WILL whip up enough of a frenzy.... generate enough momentum, like 1996 in Aus....

[happyhunter]

'Reasonable time' means anytime that fits between jobs on their shift.

[Gwion]

Police are REQUIRED by LAW to make an appointment at mutual convenience with respect to personal privacy. It is NOT an unwarranted SEARCH. If you feel you are being searched and unfairly treated, REPORT it. INSIST inspections are at a time that suits YOU and make sure everything is in order for it.

You might find you are wrong about that statement. They have no obligation to make prior arrangement. If the turn up unnanounced you can ask then to leave but I can tell you from experience that won't work in your favor.

Report them to who? The police? When it comes to firearms you have no rights. If you are ok with inspections then you are saying you are happy to have no rights.

Ok. Forget it. Just go on complaining about it.

I have been lead to believe this is the case in Tas, at least. My experience with the process confirms this. It may be different in other states. The question is, if it is so unjust; what will you do about it other than blame all the 'organisations' for not doing anything about it?

[Title_II]

........

Wanna bet?


.....

Yup. bet you a box of 22 ammo! (Its quite expensive in these parts...

We are the easy target due to the misunderstanding that we do not have a right to arms for defense.... its actually legislated in at least 2 states, VIC, and the ACT, but conveniently overlooked or dismissed...... we are the testbed and your protection is obviously the 2A, along with the sheer number of armed civilian and presumably the proportion ready to use them to defend the right.......

I never suggested 'they' are succeeding, but each of the very few times a semi-auto is supposedly used in a killing the whole media in the USA as well as locally jumps up and down for weeks about the terror and devastation caused by 'assault weapons', "wont someone do something for the children...." even though NO ONE has ever, neither are they able to say how many victims are killed by someone wielding a semi-auto.....it could be as little as 30 or 20 or less, across the whole country.... one day the media WILL whip up enough of a frenzy.... generate enough momentum, like 1996 in Aus....

I can't predict the future, but how do you justify your prediction when every year gun laws get better in the US?

Oh, BTW, West Virginia just went no-permit concealed carry last week Just like the rest of the country has been slowly headed.

Image is not updated and missing two states that have gone no permit concealed carry:

[happyhunter]

Police are REQUIRED by LAW to make an appointment at mutual convenience with respect to personal privacy. It is NOT an unwarranted SEARCH. If you feel you are being searched and unfairly treated, REPORT it. INSIST inspections are at a time that suits YOU and make sure everything is in order for it.

You might find you are wrong about that statement. They have no obligation to make prior arrangement. If the turn up unnanounced you can ask then to leave but I can tell you from experience that won't work in your favor.

Report them to who? The police? When it comes to firearms you have no rights. If you are ok with inspections then you are saying you are happy to have no rights.

Ok. Forget it. Just go on complaining about it.

I have been lead to believe this is the case in Tas, at least. My experience with the process confirms this. It may be different in other states. The question is, if it is so unjust; what will you do about it other than blame all the 'organisations' for not doing anything about it?

Where have I blamed

all the 'organisations' for not doing anything about it?

The firearms act itself by lack of clear definition allows the police a lot of power. I'm doing more than you ever will, Fuddy.

[Gwion]

Where have I blamed

all the 'organisations' for not doing anything about it?

The firearms act itself by lack of clear definition allows the police a lot of power. I'm doing more than you ever will, Fuddy.

Fair enough with that first part, I haven't seen you "blame" but plenty of others do, which was my point and not a direct personal attack. I agree that the lack of definition allows a lot of police power, amonst that power, however, is not a licence to entrap individuals or to conduct unwarranted searches. An inspection is an inspection, not a search. If you feel the line has been crossed, tell them. State that you have complied with regulations and it is now time for them to leave. If they cause you further issue, make a formal complaint and press it.

The second part find rather amusing and juvenile. Again, because i don't think exactly like you i am somehow less important or part of some perceived problem. Maybe you should go take a long look in the mirror.

[Gwion]

Police are REQUIRED by LAW to make an appointment at mutual convenience with respect to personal privacy. It is NOT an unwarranted SEARCH. If you feel you are being searched and unfairly treated, REPORT it. INSIST inspections are at a time that suits YOU and make sure everything is in order for it.

I will edit the previous post, so as not to be misleading interstate. In Tas, the police interpret 'reasonable time' to be one that works for both parties.

[juststarting]

This thread started as bullsht and degenerated into just normal sht.

[Gwion]

How true.

[Title_II]

This thread started as bullsht and degenerated into just normal sht.

Which is preferred? I'm not a sht connoisseur

[<<Genesis93>>]

This thread started as bullsht and degenerated into just normal sht.

Like most of your threads??

[<<Genesis93>>]

........

Wanna bet?


.....

Yup. bet you a box of 22 ammo! (Its quite expensive in these parts...

We are the easy target due to the misunderstanding that we do not have a right to arms for defense.... its actually legislated in at least 2 states, VIC, and the ACT, but conveniently overlooked or dismissed...... we are the testbed and your protection is obviously the 2A, along with the sheer number of armed civilian and presumably the proportion ready to use them to defend the right.......

I never suggested 'they' are succeeding, but each of the very few times a semi-auto is supposedly used in a killing the whole media in the USA as well as locally jumps up and down for weeks about the terror and devastation caused by 'assault weapons', "wont someone do something for the children...." even though NO ONE has ever, neither are they able to say how many victims are killed by someone wielding a semi-auto.....it could be as little as 30 or 20 or less, across the whole country.... one day the media WILL whip up enough of a frenzy.... generate enough momentum, like 1996 in Aus....

I can't predict the future, but how do you justify your prediction when every year gun laws get better in the US?

Oh, BTW, West Virginia just went no-permit concealed carry last week Just like the rest of the country has been slowly headed.

Image is not updated and missing two states that have gone no permit concealed carry:

I have ESP..... and a crystal ball.... one day the peeps will be sufficiently distracted by faceache, twatter, the latest 'celebrity' on 'celebrity' love tryst, or 'sportman's' piece getting her things out....or other famous for being famous attention whore posting a pic of her posterior from a different angle.....

....... that the legislator, who themselves ARE ALL paid off by a certain lobby/s....

That they'll just say...."Fork it!" and pass a bill, just like they did a few days before Christmas 1913 when they passed the most devastating legislation your nation has ever seen...... most legislators were well on their way home to their families..when a bunch of traitors were making good on their paid for promises...

Mind you if and when the time comes, that theyre taking your guns, the rest of the globe will be well and truly in.... dire straights.

[juststarting]

This thread started as bullsht and degenerated into just normal sht.

Which is preferred? I'm not a sht connoisseur

I don't know, I don't have tertiary qualifications in Fecallogy, maybe ask Genesis.

[David Brown]

Here is a question for you all to contemplate.

A police inspection of your safe storage is required to determine that you are in compliance with the ACT/Regs.

How would you feel if they were also to record the location of your safe/s and their type of construction.



Discuss!

[Title_II]

Let's all be nice now, mates

[juststarting]

I feel that the requirement for an inspection makes an assertion of me being guilty of non compliance, then police (enforce the law, not make it) come over to verify whether I am or not. The fact that they come over means the assertion is there, which is the opposite of how our legal system should operate. I agreed to this contract when I applied for a firearms permit. So the option of not having an inspection is there - don't get a gun, but it is what it is and I feel powerless to do anything about it. The End.

[<<Genesis93>>]

This thread started as bullsht and degenerated into just normal sht.

Which is preferred? I'm not a sht connoisseur

I don't know, I don't have tertiary qualifications in Fecallogy, maybe ask Genesis.

You mean perhaps faecalogy..... yes, I've studied it for a long time, I've developed an expertise in bovinefaecalogy. I can smell bullShiit from miles.

[juststarting]

<<Genesis93>> - 7/10 on comeback

[SamHuntVic]

Knowing 'where' the keys are and having 'access' to the keys are 2 different considerations....

If you're not home
There is NO inspection -
Your family members should all be made aware of how to handle a police visit....apart from ID, reason for visit etc...any inspection is at your convenience not that of the police.....

I couldn't agree more.
I had the locals turn up unannounced at 8PM on a Sunday night in May.
It's been dark for two hours already and I was away hunting. Mrs SHV was still shaking five days later when I got home. Seeing them at the door, of course she thought they had some rather bad news.
I arranged for a time for inspection soon after and when it was over, all done nicely, I gave them an earful about their previous approach. It didn't go down well, so now I haven't seen the new Sergeant here since then.
Previous to him we had a great working firearms arrangement.
Grant.

[Gwion]

Safe storage requirements were ostensibly introduced to alleviate a known problem with some firearm owner being complacent about storage, resulting in some unnecessary deaths and injuries. Similar to seat belts and speeding with motor vehicles.

So, like speeding, there needs to me some implement by which to ensure compliance; in this case it is safe storage inspections, or with speeding, it is road patrols and radar guns.

An inspection, to determine adequate compliance is acceptable WHEN made with an appointment. I do not agree with police just rolling up whenever they want, this is tantamount to harassment and i would be resistant even if it caused myself problems. If they reasonably suspect laws are being flaunted and broken, then they should turn up, unannounced, WITH A WARRANT TO SEARCH. This is not an inspection.

As for details of my security measures being kept on record, that is an emphatic NO.

[Norton]

Strongly agree with the last point.

An inappropriate access or leakage of information from a registry and it's a shopping list for criminals.

[Title_II]

100% bullshit. Including seatbelt laws. Complete nonsense and nanny state BS.

[happyhunter]

100% bullshit. Including seatbelt laws. Complete nonsense and nanny state BS.

Strongly agree with that last point.

[happyhunter]

An inspection, to determine adequate compliance is acceptable WHEN made with an appointment.

Are there any other areas you believe replacing individual responsibility with state surveillance is acceptable, by appointment?