The underhanded shooting gear marketing pressures

[Fester]

I don't think you will find too many blokes on a shooting forum who need $1,5000 thermal scopes.
I will stick to playing; I love my recreational hunting and shooting, enough to come to forums and discuss it as well.
If I just did it for pay, I likely wouldn't enjoy shooting so much, and shooting stuff.
Likely just learn what I need and just do it because I need to.

I had the same fishing boat for about 30 years, and the motor only saw a shop in the first couple of years, when I was a newb.
I always maintained my cars and bikes, including an Italian superbike.

We all have different opinions, interests, and needs.
Mine are just things I can justify and afford for my interests and hobbies.

I do use my toys, and one mate explained it like "He who dies with the most, Wins"

[fussy]

My shopping trips, even for groceries, are a bit slow, as I check the country of manufacture, eg., Where was it grown (as opposed to being extruded through NZ to give it some legitimacy and wipe off the panda fur).

Boots: Aussie made, thanks, Pays for itself over the next 2-3 years.

As for warranties: do they have a PHYSICAL address at which I can knock on their door, and stand there, waiting to be served while I tell the other customers, "I'm still waiting for the warranty to be honored."?

[tuknal]

The fact that most professional shooters (Men off farms or doing their own work for either money, stock protection and both) use spotlights because they are faster.
Eye colour, the right k of light holding an animal, the eye colours and shapes they've spent many years recognising as they quickly swing a good light left-and-right, is way faster. As is a good pair of sharp eyes looking at a real image and transmitting it to a brain to download instantly.
And the fact that their cash-disposable income is usually bugger all, so they hang on to what they are experts in using.
Sitting in the dark, without light, well that's a different story.
Yes I have thermals, two, but when running in a vehicle I will never swap out my HID light.

absolutely !!
im in contact with around 6 other roo shooters all use thermal monoculars ,some scopes as well ,1 of the better bloke around will not go back to a thermal scope ,yes they are good for some nights but over all hes says there more hassle than their worth
but every shooter has a light ,, one thing i will say wapiti ,,ditch the HID and go back to halogen they are way faster and better light i did years ago and ill never go back

this thermal game is good (when they work as described ) ,,but the ppl selling them are still just salesmen theyll take your money promise the world and half have no idea how to use the s**t they are selling 100%
ive been through 7 thermals 3 were mine 4 were different models of loan units trying to solve wifi issues in the last 24mth ,,started out with a infaray finder mk11 ,they both s**t themselves in 3mth ,so i upgraded to hikmicro (so i thought) the wifi to tablet/ipad was appalling i was given 4 different hikmicro units to test and all were not up to standard ,,all while my unit was back being looked at and told they cant find a fault ,,ive had 2 C ports replaced as well,,i will say that the importers and sales ppl were good and tried to help but still to no avail
ive heard every excuse in the book ,,oh your cars radio is interfering ( FFS i have to take my fuse out to make your U BUTE $3000 thermal work properly F OFF really !!) ,turn your phone off wifi/bluetooth ,it must be the model ipad /tablet you name it ive heard it,and when you get them on youtube telling you how 5ghz is the answer and watch while i drive up a road and use it for 10mins and nothing happened so its solved 5ghz WOO HOO ,,yeah go use it for 10hrs straight and see how you go,there is not a night EVER that ive used a thermal and there hasnt been some kind of freezing/glitching/or just shutting down
i have a nova now and yes they are better but far from what they are sold as ,,ie bomb proof wifi connection ,,i wont name ppl but the main ones on youtube getting the new gear are only telling you the good not the bad ,,cos their getting stuff for free
the bit that pisses me is i have spoken over the phone to ALL of the youtubers/salemen/importers/reps and they all admit they are not perfect over the phone
but never on youtube or in the sales brochure
but the issues ive had are RARE !!! bulls**t ,,i know plenty of hunters around here that ALL have some kind of glitch liveable to outright painfull

what ive come to believe is there is only 1 BOMBPROOF way to view a thermal on a screen/roof mount and thats hardwire but no one does it
the nova does it but its not reliable older hik stuff does it but on a monitor the detail just isnt there /the new hik stuff has issues with apps
and all have problems as soon as apple update their software
as soon as someone brings a a dedicated touch screen tablet dedicated to thermal use only hardwired with a cable to power AND charge BOTH devices ,,no apps just to view the thermal theyll kill it
i will say if you use them as just a monocular they seem be be very good ,but wifi to screen NONE are perfect
my experiance is with hik/infaray/nocpix i know ppl with pard and they seem to be ok with some minor connectivity issues
at the end of the day Australia is a very small market and we are i think the only one or one of a very few that use thermals roof mounted with spotlights so we are not that important ,,well that is what ive been told by at least 3 of the ppl anyone would be familiar with on youtube they all sell/promote thermal monoculars for roof mounting purposes as awesome

[niteowl]

This has gone off track a bit since my first comment, no problem though.
Any way I suggested that people will not get a real benefit from consumer grade thermals and still stand by that. If you can't afford them that is also fine, just be wary, I will never criticise you for that. The top end ones are EXPENSIVE but they will out perform the others. Even in really bad thermal conditions, mist, light rain and so on, you will still see animals clearly without any problems at the same distances, just the trees etc are harder to see. By adjusting the gain and using other menu settings to suit, makes things better too.

Re kangaroo shooters, I have not been one in the commercial sense since the '60 s when I was an apprentice. I / we shot them on a commercial licence on very part time basis to cover our "shooting" costs. Always back then, with a spotlight and would still do. Although I have no deisre to go back there.
I do not understand how a commercial roo shooter would go with thermal or any other Night Vision gear ????
Yes we do shoot roos on contract, but only under very specific situations (Govt only)
So I still stand by my comment regarding price, yes we do use those $14 - 15 K units (Plus, with some). Some years ago we started with commecial thermals, they were all you could get. They also kept losing zero. Don't know if this has been solved yet and don't care, we will NEVER go back
We have customers of all levels for these units, some are professional pest controllers too, and once having used one in the top end have sold all their "consumer grade" units, some now have 4 of the top end ones, and will never go back.

When we do Night Vision Workshops we do a hands on with NV of all types. We start people on the bottom end and have comments like "wow this is great". Then work up to the top end, and the normal first comment is "XXXX" that is outstanding.

Now remember technology (spelling??) changes quickly these days, so while even your top end unit will not be quite up to the same standard as a current model 5 years later. We have 14 year old units still in service.

I thank everyone who has gone to the effort to read all this ramble.

[tuknal]

This has gone off track a bit since my first comment, no problem though.
Any way I suggested that people will not get a real benefit from consumer grade thermals and still stand by that. If you can't afford them that is also fine, just be wary, I will never criticise you for that. The top end ones are EXPENSIVE but they will out perform the others. Even in really bad thermal conditions, mist, light rain and so on, you will still see animals clearly without any problems at the same distances, just the trees etc are harder to see. By adjusting the gain and using other menu settings to suit, makes things better too.

Re kangaroo shooters, I have not been one in the commercial sense since the '60 s when I was an apprentice. I / we shot them on a commercial licence on very part time basis to cover our "shooting" costs. Always back then, with a spotlight and would still do. Although I have no deisre to go back there.
I do not understand how a commercial roo shooter would go with thermal or any other Night Vision gear ????
Yes we do shoot roos on contract, but only under very specific situations (Govt only)
So I still stand by my comment regarding price, yes we do use those $14 - 15 K units (Plus, with some). Some years ago we started with commecial thermals, they were all you could get. They also kept losing zero. Don't know if this has been solved yet and don't care, we will NEVER go back
We have customers of all levels for these units, some are professional pest controllers too, and once having used one in the top end have sold all their "consumer grade" units, some now have 4 of the top end ones, and will never go back.


When we do Night Vision Workshops we do a hands on with NV of all types. We start people on the bottom end and have comments like "wow this is great". Then work up to the top end, and the normal first comment is "XXXX" that is outstanding.

Now remember technology (spelling??) changes quickly these days, so while even your top end unit will not be quite up to the same standard as a current model 5 years later. We have 14 year old units still in service.

I thank everyone who has gone to the effort to read all this ramble.

niteowl
mate your comments IMO wont be treated as ramble
im all ears ,im happy to be educated
my question is tho these ppl spending this kind of money are who ??cashed up farmers and so called contract shooters that are cashed up from other incomes that can afford the initial cost to claim later
or government /entities/employees that dont have to pay for it out of their own pockets ,im yet to met a so called contract shooter that can make what a good roo shooter can a night,,unless under a lucrative government contract ,,yes mind you theres alot more work in roo shooting than meats the eye, sure as s**t aint all beer a scittles

i dont doubt theres units better out there than the generice s**t we/most are sold but im sure if the stuff your talking about is that far superior (not doubting is isnt cos ive never seen or used or heard of it) there would be roo shooters that would pay for it theres bloke out there turning over 250000 plus a year (im far from catagorey tho )that would find it beneficial but theres also alot that would say F that we still shot 50/60/70 a night without that s**t for that price ,,all comes down to knowing the counrty you shoot,and that comes with any type of contract shooting,,
but you cant always live in or know the country your shooting and thats where this technology WILL give you a upper hand
im strictly not talking about scopes for i have no experience with them, im takling about a device used for monitoring the view ,,ie locating animals whilst under spotlighting conditions

im all ears if theres a solution but wifi is OVER rated ,,good when it works but cant be 100% relied on in my experience

sorry this is abit askew from the original post subject but f*** im sick of the promise the world deliver an island from the mainstream thermal providers

[niteowl]

Hi tuknal
First off, lets try and explain the situation better. My original comment was that a lot of people seem to complain or run down thermal as being very ordinary and or expensive at 4 - 5K. Just tying to point out the difference.
There is no comparison between the two ends of the market.
No my clients are NOT the top end of town with unlimited money. One professional is fairly well off but does a LOT of work to get there. All the others include Joe Average who have actually seen the benefit and saved their money rather than spending half of the price and not being satisfied with consumer grade products, after believing the garbage on line.

For a couple of them I actually refunded their money for up to 3 units and replace them with better, after working with the importers who admitted that they had a problem and could not overcome it. (They have now actually stopped importing these and gone to another brand, unfortunately a similar product )
Yes we sold them for a start as they appeared to be OK and do the job, but we ourselves finally saw the light and went to the higher end stuff and NEVER looked back.
OK, in the very early days we did sell them, unaware of the problems or how poor they actually were. Wont mention the brand.
When you see through, basically any of this cheaper stuff for the first time, you tend to think WOW that is great, until you find them wanting.

There is an influx of hopeful "professionals" starting in this state up due to our new firearm laws, that will never make it even if they can convince the authorities they should qualify.

So now roo shooters, as I mentioned previously, I do NOT recommend any NV for that job. I have been there in the early days before we could even consider NV.
Oh WIFI ?? have no use for it.
We, ourselves operate in a completely different way to a commercial roo shooter, and so do our "other category users".
I am not here to "sell" stuff, just to warn people about available products BEFORE they spend their money.

No, we do not sell one of these products every week (How I wish) but they do sell.
A note here, they are controlled items that come out here with a Canadian Govt. permit, but are perfectly legal to own and use in Australia. Just do not try to send them out of the country without a Defence Dept and Australian Customs permit !!!!!!!
We would be visiting you inside for about the next 20 years.
Yes, we are registered with DECO and Border Force.

[Fester]

Question time, as I know next to nothing about thermals and am only here to learn from others.

Is it the consensus that to use a thermal scope you can pay 4-5K and be getting something with decent performance and fault free in how it operates, but a 2K rifle scope is asking for disappointment?

Also, what is the main reason that a NV scope is not recommended for a roo shooter?
I could see them as a good thing on rabbits in a small field 22lr type of shooting.

Even the Vic deer hunters using thermal monoculars could be a bit horses for courses as sambar hunters in the thick bush may get away with a cheap version like what I have played with, but a bloke using one to glass a hill face would be needing something that can work at much further range.

The biggest issue with mine in night and day is all the other crap showing the heat signatures: rocks and trees.
Can better units lessen, or filter that at all?
I have never really found a deer hiding in thick stuff on the fringe of an open area, not that I have done much trying.

The Vic guitar teacher bloke that gets on here and hunts sambar in thick stuff gets great results that cleary show deer before he could see them. I have no idea what his monocular is worth. I forget his YouTube channel name as I am hopeless at remembering names.

[niteowl]

Question time, as I know next to nothing about thermals and am only here to learn from others.

Is it the consensus that to use a thermal scope you can pay 4-5K and be getting something with decent performance and fault free in how it operates, but a 2K rifle scope is asking for disappointment?
A 2K scope - yes. 4-5K is still not what can be construed as high quality. Not saying dont do it if you wish, just be aware We are talking $14,000. Now get up off the floor

Also, what is the main reason that a NV scope is not recommended for a roo shooter?
Too slow and restricted area of vision
I could see them as a good thing on rabbits in a small field 22lr type of shooting.
Yes

Even the Vic deer hunters using thermal monoculars could be a bit horses for courses as sambar hunters in the thick bush may get away with a cheap version like what I have played with, but a bloke using one to glass a hill face would be needing something that can work at much further range.
In the right conditions this can help. We don't do much in the way of deer "hunting" There are too many varying conditions that would take a week to try to explain them all here. Scanning a distant hill, yes without question

The biggest issue with mine in night and day is all the other crap showing the heat signatures: rocks and trees.
Can better units lessen, or filter that at all?
Well thermal "sees" heat. If it is there and hot, then you WILL see it
I have never really found a deer hiding in thick stuff on the fringe of an open area, not that I have done much trying.

The Vic guitar teacher bloke that gets on here and hunts sambar in thick stuff gets great results that cleary show deer before he could see them. I have no idea what his monocular is worth. I forget his YouTube channel name as I am hopeless at remembering names.

In the right situation you could do this even with crappy gear in the right conditions and range. This is IMPORTANT as you CAN NOT see through something that blocks your direct sight with any device ! except X-Ray

Unfortunately this whole subject is long and complex that can never be fully explained here in text. Especially with such short answers. Sorry about that. I responded to this thread originally as there was some serious micoceptions that need clarifying. Not to try to explain the systems and their actual uses and benefits in text.

[Fester]

Thanks

The answers are fine and what I was looking for.
Looks like some years yet before normal blokes will be buying decent units.

In saying that, lots of blokes seem happy shooting with last year's outdated 4k scopes.
For me, I am old and bought European bikes and cars for less than that, so not for me, not ever.

[Wapiti]

Mate, don't ever think you are missing out on anything essential either.
You are not.
There always will be a market for high end stuff, marketing will see to that. And the sellers will keep the pressure on.
The latest cartridge, the latest ammo, bigger heavier scopes, thermals, competitiveness.
The human today has been taught consumerism, and if you don't, you are missing out.

Whatever happened to the hunter yesterday who had a rifle with a modest optical scope that worked, who actually hunted the animal using wit and knowledge.
It's still there, and still the most satisfying part of the game played.
Until you run out of opportunities doing that, why bother because all the colourful ads forced on us tell us to.

Even the blokes who have the most to lose, the owners of the land growing something, get the same results with the old ways and wit, just with a different procedure. Using the simple gear that is still around, before this current change in tech.

People will always be the same, the consumer will tell you their justification for spending all that cash is essential, because they have to tell themselves they are better off. Otherwise they have to confess they just blew a wad of dough. Heavens, no, the ego blow !!
In theory they will be more flexible in what they can get up to, but like the latest fad cartridge that's superior on paper, the bloke with the 7x57 Mauser who is experienced will leave the 6.5 Manbun Magnum user for dead, still punching buttons.

Interesting to see everyone in agreeance with the fact that a professional shooter is still faster collecting Kg in meat from a property, using just experience, a spotlight, knowledge of game habits and learned behaviour to pay his wages.
Doesn't keep the consumer market flowing cash though.
The topic of this thread.

[Fester]

Yeah buddy, I am missing out on nothing, and making the impulse-buyer types think they are is exactly what the salesman wants.
The marketing can go on until the cows come home, but I will still be sitting back watching.

My mate called me an astute buyer, I think that was the word, and he taught me some tactics against car dealers. He used me when he thought they would use that outnumbering tactic, and we reversed it.
That salesman said in the end, "If the manager lets me do that deal, you should also get me a carton of beer"
He did well in small business as a tradie, also importing Yank campers, and pretty much re-building them for our regulations before selling them new.
They were the good times when the AU$ actually went above the US$, he locked in that rate for a period.
He did well, and he and his wife drive cruisers so car buying and rebuilding is just for the kids now.

I don't even bother with trail cams, but I should buy a couple now that they are cheap as chips.
I got 1, but just for backyard critters; I have a bandicoot friend visiting, and got good footage.
I just go to the spot repeatedly, learn it, and then on occasion the deer will be there.
The stalk and shot must count, as there is only 1 shot, and that's on a good day.
That's public land hunting in the highest hunting-pressure forests close to Sydney, so it was never meant to be easy, lol.
Having lived through the forest hunting times will always be considered a privilege for me, and I can see the end coming, but I may see it out.

I went YouTubing last night and was thinking of asking that Voice of the Hunter bloke what thermal he uses, as the footage of the bigger Sambar deer looked pretty impressive for in thick country, and it was unlikely to be a million-dollar handheld.
Didn't get to ask as it turns out the companies are onto him and gave him one of their rock-bottom budget night vision scope to test.
Turns out that the $500 cheapy works fine and holds zero, just like my unbeatable Magnum Sports thermal for under $500 lol.
It just seems to work, and still working; touch wood.
It was one of the big brands that had trouble holding zero when night vision was newish, and I saw a bloke with a few of them having issues, so likely they didn't resolve the problem; they just kept selling what was not ready to be released at the start, as they do.
Complex methods of zeroing with stupid menu options is also a fail in my books; looks like they have figured that out. Sales-induced, fixed the problem with a quick couple of shots for zeroing.

If I can't even justify buying them, not really doing nighttime pest-type shooting, it doesn't mean I won't buy the best-value cheapy now that they are improving, just to play and give my accurate sluggy some shooting, as it deserves, being a safe queen lately.

I have also never filmed any shooting before; I just need to think up and exploding fruit like the 30-30 vers cheap small pineapples, passion fruit comes to mind, and the JSB pellets that really expand (Jades hunting ones)
Do I wait, or do I just try one and use the BDC reticle for ranging? Decisions, decisions.

Sorry for going off topic so far, but better some learnings and a good discussion on what started as a bad sort of subject.
That's how it goes on forums, and not a bad thing IMO.

[niteowl]

Hey guys, I did say that under certain conditions a cheapy can do what you want. No argument there.

A couple of things though. There are some thermal clips posted from time to time that the user considers "great". Yes you can see what the target is, but still a very crappy image and fairly close. Like I said before, the first time we show someone a basic device at our workshops, they are blown away. If you have never used genuine professional ones you can't make a judgment on what is good.
I also never say you should not use consumer devices, just be aware.

Now some of you seem to think that a professional shooter is an every day kangaroo shooter. There are other professional shooters, not just kangaroo shooters.
Be informed, I / we shoot kangaroos a lot in our work, but NOT in the situation you may imagine, but NEVER use a spotlight. We are not shooting for meat or just to rid a farmer of some kangaroos.

As I have said may times, if a true professional thermal is out of reach on your own budget, or you don't have the need OK again no argument.

A comment that puzzles me is that a thermal is hard to zero ???? It is no more difficult. or should be, than a day scope.

Any way all good, nothing further on this subject from me.

Yes the thread has gone of track a bit, but as Fester says, that is how it goes.

One little PS. No matter how long your thermal may last, the technology does change as time goes by. We are still using one scope that is now 14 years old!
No the image prcessing etc is not to the current standard of the others.

[Fester]

The comment about zeroing was about some night vision scopes that had a complex menu-type procedure that blokes could never remember when out in the field.

Some couldn't even learn to do it using the instructions.
A decent bloke was teaching them and said once you know it's not so bad.
Obviously they have sorted that with these 2 shot zero methods that the unit then remembers.
Not holding zero to me is a binable offence.

In some ways, my reasoning is a dabble in night vision because it's just close-range small-bore stuff that sort of suits it.
It's also OK as a short-range day scope.
The picture clarity of the critters is fairly clear and good.

I tend to agree that a thermal scope for the centrefires would need to be much higher in the range, or if like me, keep sitting back watching for a couple more years when the mid-range scopes are more acceptable.

I would likely fall off my chair if I looked through a top-end unit, but I won't go there.
When I started hunting and shooting rifles, I just didn't look through a top-end conventional scope as I didn't want to see how good they were.
Now they have doubled in price so it's even less likely that I will buy one.

For me, when I watched some medium- sized pigs through my cheapo spotter at around 200yds, it was clear and gave a positive ID.
There was no mistaking them for sheep.
Exacty the same results on the fallow deer.
What it see's and IDs in thick country is not yet proven, but may well be OK.
Good enough for me, and looking up the NV scope that the voice man tested, the fker will only cost about $400 with a 12 month warranty if it fails.

For an honest sort of bloke, I reckon he will sell some units for the company.
I like the bloke and his vids for some reason, and never quite put my finger on why.
Keen, and willing to share and teach, not at a high expert level like others.
Non of that crap sound or footage that could make a bloke seasick.
He is doing something right and enthusiastic for sure; only hunted for a few years but must have put the thousands of hours in, so he is keen, would have done some family property pest control, though.