Are magistrates out of touch or am I out of touch?

[mickb]

forget it mick, he is a complete retard, its not worth the effort.

If he didnt attribute arguments to people they didnt make, he would probably make more sense.

[Ziege]

SAnewb85 - I mostly concur but I will never support the death penalty, plenty of slave labour they could be doing instead. Too many people are falsely incriminated these days, took my mate 6 years to clear his name despite his ex being a blatant liar after she made allegations of violence toward the children, can only think it would take someone falsely accused of paedophilia just as long if not longer considering the prejudice and triggering surrounding it. I would hate to see disconnected and distraught fathers being needled due to the fabrications of some scorned wench, after hell hath no fury etc, (that whole thing s**ts me, women acting like they have a right to be malicious cos someone upset them, but that's a different topic) There are rehabilitative steps that can help a person with sexual issues. although these need to be autonomously prescribed and seen through in their entirety for any real change to take place, this is seldom the case. I think its despicable that people commit such acts but I would be doing my education an injustice if I was to ignore the cycle that leads to people being as such, just in that the extreme few people are genuinely born sociopathic, so too are people seldom born a paedophile, cycles of abuse, sadly mostly generational, lead to this behaviour and desire in the vast majority of cases, so the real answer to that is teaching families to have proper boundaries and for parents to be alert and able to recognise the patterns and indicators that such abuse may be happening. this is the most easy to implement and the simplest way to eliminate the vast majority of such crime and stop innocent children becoming victims, the biggest hindrance however to this is the Bogan/meathead response to the issue whereby all pedos should be, shot, drowned, mamed, attacked, killed etc. If a young man or woman or even child who has suffered the abuse of a predatory abuser, especially someone grooming the victim, is struggling with their desires and urges, they are not going to actively seek help because there is too much fear of reprisal, this is very true for a lot of young men in the indigenous community, and I know as I have counselled these young men, and trust me, you're not helping with the violence, the only way to stop the cycle is for the grooming to stop, this is done usually at such a formative age that their entire creative subconscious and schema is mapped densely with the acts of a abuse being put into parts of their reasoning where love and care and affection belong. This is why they offend, they have a positive association with that sexual act in the same way that a healthy person has with patting their best 4 legged mate on the head after playing fetch, or having their nana give them a big warm hug. This stuff isnt clear cut, and sadly none of our mental health system or society is properly setup or orientated to actually stop the abuse, Victims of grooming often get a bout of counselling at the beginning and are then left with all that unresolved positive association for the rest of their lives, and that's only the people who are identified as victims and are helped.


Its a very difficult topic, make no mistake if someone touched my kids god help them, but the system needs to be made to actually deal with the issue. And to anyone thinking they're above this issue, statistically every family in Australia has this issue, dirty secret or not. some relative up to 2nd degree of separation will have either been abused, is an abuser or both. frightening stat isn't it. Only solution is reformation of society to actually address and extinguish it, this unfortunately falls into the individual hands of the collective to be proactive in how they raise their children from hereon out. and cant be solved my malice alone.

[boingk]

I will never support the death penalty, plenty of slave labour they could be doing instead.

Indeed. Plenty of roads that need fixing around my way, or tarring in some cases.

This is why they offend, they have a positive association with that sexual act in the same way that a healthy person has with patting their best 4 legged mate on the head after playing fetch, or having their nana give them a big warm hug. This stuff isnt clear cut, and sadly none of our mental health system or society is properly setup or orientated to actually stop the abuse, Victims of grooming often get a bout of counselling at the beginning and are then left with all that unresolved positive association for the rest of their lives, and that's only the people who are identified as victims and are helped.

To hell with their positive association. We going to just let them roam around until they toucha few kids up? Its unfortunate but they aren't going to be fixed. The abuse is often tacitly condoned by the (often remote as you insinuate) communities it occurs in, in that it is known about but not stopped.

Its a very difficult topic, make no mistake if someone touched my kids god help them

We agree on this.

but the system needs to be made to actually deal with the issue. Only solution is reformation of society to actually address and extinguish it, this unfortunately falls into the individual hands of the collective to be proactive in how they raise their children from hereon out. and cant be solved my malice alone.

Bingo. The biggest thing would be to identify and proactively target all the offenders. Or kill them, you know, whatever. Cycle stops when the perpetration stops, right?

[Ziege]

mostly agree, you just wont get me onboard with the witch hunt, I have personally counselled a lot of kids who suffer, and the fear of reprisal is the biggest road block to stopping the abuse, the only fix is to reprogram and give the right tools to change those associations, so whilst the old pedo who has a list as long as his arm deserves contempt, a kid or young adult who is not an offender but a victim and living in their own personal hell isnt.

[Ziege]

parents tune in, if your child is abused you are their custodian, take responsibility for your neglect to educate yourself on the signs of abuse and your lack of vigilance. in a lot of things discernment is learned. learn it.

also never raise your children in an environment with little or no boundaries, you are asking for disaster, whether its this issue or others, you will have been entirely responsible for that environment.

[boingk]

parents tune in, if your child is abused you are their custodian, take responsibility for your neglect to educate yourself on the signs of abuse and your lack of vigilance. in a lot of things discernment is learned. learn it.

also never raise your children in an environment with little or no boundaries, you are asking for disaster, whether its this issue or others, you will have been entirely responsible for that environment.

This. I deal with this through my job on a daily basis. Children without boundaries become adults without boundaries, and very quickly. Most I speak with wish it wasn't the was they'd gotten into things, or are going through things currently. Many are battling legal proceedings, parenthood and drug addictions simultaneously.

Experienced people take advantage of unsupervised children. Don't let your children be the ones there when "opportunity" knocks.

fear of reprisal is the biggest road block to stopping the abuse, the only fix is to reprogram and give the right tools to change those associations, so whilst the old pedo who has a list as long as his arm deserves contempt, a kid or young adult who is not an offender but a victim and living in their own personal hell isnt.

Can't argue with you there mate, I think we're arguing to the same end here. Help the victims, persecute the offeners harshly. A victim is a victim until they perpetuate the cycle.

[Ziege]

"Flyer - I'm not offering any answers to that, just pointing out the facts. You acknowledge it yourself. It is bitterly ironic that sympathy for an abused child disappears as soon as that child grows up and propagates the same behaviour on another innocent victim. It is not right. But what happened to the perpetrator when they were a child was not right either."

This we can definitely see eye to eye on,

from a therapeutic point of view its due diligence to rehabilitate and address the wrongs done to people as opposed to painting them a monster for something that was done TO them. No one would berate a boy or girl who acts inappropriately if they knew that child had been molested and groomed or even worse raped.

the same has to be done for the adult with the same issue, the person is literally stuck at a formative age due to the abuse and the abusive bonds and positive association issues are keeping them there until that is broken.

Unless people actually study the subject and look deeply into the dynamics of the entire mechanism and the way the child/juvenile brain interprets and compartmentalises its experiences, there is nothing but ignorance. This ignorance is what holds back people from getting help and the right kind of help, sex abuse creates a myriad of different personality and emotional issues, all sewn into the psyche at a formative a deep level that most cant even get their heads around, the perpetrator as an adult is still very much so operating as that child on a deeper subconscious level, and the continuance of the behaviour is nothing more than trying to reconnect with those positive attachments.

Everyone knows that sexual stimulation is a powerful and pleasurable experience. Imagine being at a formative age, with no understanding of any of this, and an adult who you look up to or admire or feel "safe" around is grooming you into liking and therefore enjoying sexual acts. as sickening as it is for the normal healthy adult to imagine, and as outlandish as it SHOULD seem. this is the reality for children that are groomed. they are made to feel - special, loved, pleasure, important, wanted, desired (even though they dont understand that fully yet), and lots of these perpetrators are artful to the point where the child even seeks them out after a while,

I know of a case of a woman in her late 20s, lets say her name is brenda (it isnt) and shes 28, her step father groomed her and her older sister Beth (not real name either) now 31, into playing sex games with one another and then after this became "normal" with him involved directly, so powerful is this bond created via the abusers actions and coercion that even when physical damage is done, the two girls continue to engage in this behaviour....

now this is where things take a turn, different people are more resilient than others, peoples likes are different to others and just as romances of the healthy kind break up, so do these situations, the eldest girl beth decides she doesnt like it anymore, she tells mum, mum tells friend, friend helps mum goto cops, step dad is busted and goes to jail for 6 years plus on the sex offender register for life etc,

YEARS later our original girl Brenda is visited sporadically by her younger not abused sister Missy, Missy lets herself into Brenda's house like she has many times before and to her horror witnesses Brenda engaged in the act of sex with their step father. at the age of 28 years old. what makes this more shocking is that Brenda at the age of 5 had to have corrective labial and vaginal surgery to undo the damage and scarring, yet despite all of this, and despite her knowing he was and is her abuser, and despite her knowing its completely wrong and completely unethical and that he was a monster to her, she still is entrapped by his grooming and abuse. he still has control over her.

this is much the same with people who go on to abuse, the abuse has the same lasting grip on their emotions and thoughts and ability to reason and construct healthy behavioural patterns.

Grooming is nothing like rape, grooming is nothing like a violent assault, and those who do it are often convinced that their victim is going to feel pleasure, and gain sexual gratification from the experience, and the f***ed thing is that they aren't completely wrong, they are however completely messed up, a mess they are actively passing on.....

I do not believe that remotely enough efforts have been put into place to address adult age victims, and I honestly don't think there are enough services for the abused, the courts knew about the case mentioned above, as did all the psychs and therapists and police and doctors and surgeons involved, yet she was left to grow up still connected to her abuser sexually, still seeking his validation and still chasing that first sexual pleasure he groomed her into having. the same ball is what is dropped in every case of where a sexually abused child is left to grow up without any help or guidance to get themselves into a healthy mindset and start to slowly unpack what has happened to them and realise they are a victim of something and that it was NEVER good, and NEVER felt ok, that they were abused and lied to.

this can take years and years. its sad as hell and probably one of if not the most horrific and avoidable and treatable issues we have as a race in this day and age. again, everyone of you on here is related to someone within the spectrum of 2 degrees of separation that is either an abuse victim or perpetrator or both, its a genuine plague.

[mickb]

I'm not getting into a dissecting argument. It's messy and boring.

Probably a good poilicy to avoid your last posts blunders.

And no matter how many different ways you frame the same argument, if it doesn't hold water, it doesn't hold water. That is very different to not understading what you are saying: I understand, but I see no evidence.

Double the incarceration rate, more police for roughly the same crime rates. Stated three times, you have even stated it yourself earlier

already jailing 130% more people per head of population than we were in 1985 – that means our prison population per capita has more than doubled in the past 35 years.

Or was this another flyer?

What I will point out is, it doesn't really matter what your argument is, because it won't change anything: society has moved on and we are not going back to the "good old days" – whatever you think they were.How often do you hear older – and especially conservative – people opining that things were worse in their time? Almost never. It was always better. Generation after generation all say the same thing.

Speak for yourself kid. I lived in 7 countries at various levels of development, I saw older and younger generations claiming things were better, worse , different or the same depending on how things were changing. Generally I considered peoples opinions a pretty good source of what is going on because the reality is, reality changes.

Even in Australia the older generation you talk about is baby boomers but a generation before never dont claim "life was easier" They saw the great depression, war and a lifestyle that was essentially 2nd world. :Life was hard as f*** and unfair. However they did often consider community behaviour better.

People don't "behave less well today" – they simply behave differently.

Sure, they just prefer to go to prison twice as often because its fun and different.

You are out of synch if you believe those days were "better".

Your more than out of synch if you post about a system that is imprisoning twice as many people but think its 'not worse'

And I will say our generation is to blame for the current mess, the prison system etc- us and the booomers that is.

If millenials would stop believing 'the narrative' being placed before you by people in power , you might start listening to the few of us who arent intent on screwing them over.

As it stands they fight for all the nonsensical reasons we throw them like bones to a dog. They will be the first generation with the distinction of having "infinte genders" whilst still having to pay us rent until they are 60.

Its a pretty good deal from my generations point of view. We get richer, they get stupider. The saddest thing is I am not really arguing with millenials anyway. I am fighting the arguments the more powerful people in my generation fed them.

Indeed, you still haven't put forth a good argument as to why today's legal system is a "total fail".

The changes it made failed. Thats called a total fail, a total waste of time, a totally stupid idea, a total waste of money, a total excess of police presence, I could go on and on.

We have more police, because we have a larger population

Nice try, but there are 3x the police but twice per capita.

We have more people in prisons, because we lock up more non-violent drug offenders.

Yes Partly. Another is the rate of recividism is increasing. People going to prison, keep going back, again and again. The system is failing to rehabilitate and deter, which is one of its aims, and society is failing to address the root causes.

We have laws in place now that were not in place even 20 years ago.

I dont disagree with that. There are far too many laws and regulations in place. Possibly 10x as many. And all for lower standard of living than we have now. And they all cost money to make and enforce and put even more strain on taxpayers, especially young ones struggling to buy a house.

Another "big fail" sold to you kids as 'the big success'

You views are subjective and you don't provide the facts to back them up. That's not a strawman argument, it's pointing out the obvious.

We both provided the same statistics. You just feel twice as many people in prison represent a system that is better.

[Flyer]

I said the crime rate was roughly the same, but with less police needed and the prisons half as full.

And again, when people were freer to correct others behaviour we had a system that worked better.

Thats not debatable, the statistics today, the incarceration rate and the police expenditure is disgraceful and a total fail.

it just didnt work. people behave less well these days. You can recruit all the scarecrows and side tangents you want.

Because I could have adopted a more conciliatory tone in my previous post, and because I have more time today, I'll just let the facts speak for themselves this time.

http://w3.unisa.edu.au/unisanews/2016/F ... tory10.asp

We have more police per head of population – you are right

But crime rates are down.

You are also correct that Australia's incarceration rate is much higher. In fact, we put the rest of the world to shame.

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http://andrewleigh.org/pdf/SecondConvictAge.pdf

But if you read the above report – which is very thorough – you will discover that it has nothing to do with Australians behaving more badly and everything to do with the following reasons:

* Policing is better – more crimes are detected and prosecuted (DNA evidence for example)

* Longer prison terms – since 1985, average time served in prison has risen by 56 percent, from 2.4 years to 3.7 years.

* More prisoners on remand – due to fewer people being granted bail, and longer court waiting times

* Indigenous prison rate has more than doubled

* Female prison rate has more than doubled

There is an argument that with more repeat offenders behind bars, then naturally crime rates will fall. But the evidence doesn't bear this out, either.

So to all those calling for more prisoners and longer sentences – you already have them! We are one of the most imprisoned nations in the Western World!

For those who say things were better in the old days, you are right – you could commit more crimers, get away with them more, and stil serve less time in prison or on remand!

We're actually more law-abiding today than we have been at almost any other time in Australia's history.

Facts. Not straw.

[TassieTiger]

parents tune in, if your child is abused you are their custodian, take responsibility for your neglect to educate yourself on the signs of abuse and your lack of vigilance. in a lot of things discernment is learned. learn it.

also never raise your children in an environment with little or no boundaries, you are asking for disaster, whether its this issue or others, you will have been entirely responsible for that environment.

This a side issue to the topic - but from personal experience, this is frustratingly impossible to do for millions of dads around this country (and a few mums), where magistrates have ostracised the dads out of the family environment based on bulldust AVO’s and a bulls**t application of child support policies.
My lawyer from many years ago, said it’s well known in the industry that between 25-35% of FV orders are based on falsehood where the “driver” is money via Csa or simply wanting to “get back at dad”.
And this then opens a huge can of worms...

[Ziege]

parents tune in, if your child is abused you are their custodian, take responsibility for your neglect to educate yourself on the signs of abuse and your lack of vigilance. in a lot of things discernment is learned. learn it.

also never raise your children in an environment with little or no boundaries, you are asking for disaster, whether its this issue or others, you will have been entirely responsible for that environment.

This a side issue to the topic - but from personal experience, this is frustratingly impossible to do for millions of dads around this country (and a few mums), where magistrates have ostracised the dads out of the family environment based on bulldust AVO’s and a bulls**t application of child support policies.
My lawyer from many years ago, said it’s well known in the industry that between 25-35% of FV orders are based on falsehood where the “driver” is money via Csa or simply wanting to “get back at dad”.
And this then opens a huge can of worms...

Oh for real agree, in that case if harm happens to the kids in the care of the useless c*** mole that has taken out the AVO on frivolous grounds or otherwise, she/they should be held accountable entirely.

[TassieTiger]

Who says YOUR facts are the one everyone should be taking as gospel? Because YOU quoted them ? You want facts? You can’t handle the facts...
I know the word “subjective”, I also know the word “narcissistic wanker”.
Ignore list was ok for a while but then I kept going back, seeing what self important entertainment you were leaving...”who on earth do you think your talking too?” omg, I nearly fell out of my car laughing so hard...

[SAnewb85]

parents tune in, if your child is abused you are their custodian, take responsibility for your neglect to educate yourself on the signs of abuse and your lack of vigilance. in a lot of things discernment is learned. learn it.

also never raise your children in an environment with little or no boundaries, you are asking for disaster, whether its this issue or others, you will have been entirely responsible for that environment.

This a side issue to the topic - but from personal experience, this is frustratingly impossible to do for millions of dads around this country (and a few mums), where magistrates have ostracised the dads out of the family environment based on bulldust AVO’s and a bulls**t application of child support policies.
My lawyer from many years ago, said it’s well known in the industry that between 25-35% of FV orders are based on falsehood where the “driver” is money via Csa or simply wanting to “get back at dad”.
And this then opens a huge can of worms...

In the instances if false domestic violence or rape cases the woman should be charged and in the case of rape charges be given thr same amount of jail time as the falsely accused faced.

Lawyers should be held accountable for falsified claims and disbarred.

As I've said in my previous posts, the lack of accountability in society has had a significant impact on the perceived downfall of societal values.

**not arguing with you TT, just stating my opinion on the situation you mentioned

[marksman]

l'm not braggin mate, to old for that crap, just filling the freezer, family and friends love venison
heaps of rabbits with the 22 using the pard as well flyer

[Blr243]

A

[Blr243]

Stop fighting. Go and cuddle your dogs. Life is too short

[TassieTiger]

Okay BLR...you win.
Come here you fluffy arses.

[Grandadbushy]

Crikey TT are they Tasmanian Tiger cross mate, nice looking dogs and nice colours, Stix would love to make a Crocket hat out of each of them Nah just joking mate , what breed are they ?

[TassieTiger]

They are Akita’s mate. The dark female is getting on a bit, so we bought the pup (in white) for company. He’s just gone 40kgs at 10 months...and dead set annoys the crap out of the older dog.
They are both absolutely useless as hunting dogs...unless the quarry is human or feline.
If you want to watch a Really good tear jerker Movie re dog / owner (Richard Gere) - a true story - that will make you cuddle ya dog - I recommend “ Haichi” it’s a true story about a dog that would accompany his owner to take the morning train to work every day, then his owner passed away but the dog didn’t know, so the dog waited at train station for nine years...checking every train, looking for his beloved owner...

[Grandadbushy]

Sounds like a good movie i'll look it up thanks I shoot wild dogs for a job and a hobby and some people accuse me of hating dogs and think i'm a ruthless bastard in doing so but they couldn't be further from the truth, i always cared for my dogs like they were family , you can trust a dog more than i can say for some people at times

[Blr243]

My dog is useless hunting too. I keep him on a lead

[marksman]

LOL l leave mine at home