Military buffs, can you identify this?

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Military buffs, can you identify this?

Post by Chappo » 04 Apr 2019, 4:42 pm

A friend of mine loves getting out with a metal detector and has found some pretty nice stuff over the years.
This came out of the ground recently and we thought it was from a military uniform?
The symbols look to be a bayonet, a powder horn and a snake wrapped around a staff.
The rusty steel on the back looks like some kind of clip / attachment.
Any ideas???
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Re: Military buffs, can you identity?

Post by bigrich » 04 Apr 2019, 4:54 pm

That’s unusual. I remember my grandfathers ww2 era buttons were a map of Australia. That button might be pre federation. A British regiment button maybe ? I think Americans had U.S on their buttons. Very interesting
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Re: Military buffs, can you identity?

Post by TassieTiger » 04 Apr 2019, 4:55 pm

Perhaps email war museum contacts at Canberra? -id suspect a curator there would know.
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Re: Military buffs, can you identity?

Post by Bilko » 04 Apr 2019, 7:01 pm

Agree with Tas - check the war memorial, as first port of call. Maybe a button from 19th Century which would mean some research perhaps in a NSW museum of British units in the area, and then chasing info from Old Blighty.
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Re: Military buffs, can you identity?

Post by duncan61 » 04 Apr 2019, 7:02 pm

That may go back to the rum corp days of convict era.Please find out and let us know
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Re: Military buffs, can you identity?

Post by on_one_wheel » 04 Apr 2019, 7:24 pm

Wow, that's really interesting 8-) ... where did he find it? (Roughly)
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Re: Military buffs, can you identity?

Post by JimTom » 04 Apr 2019, 7:41 pm

An idea of the area it was found may yield a few more clues mate.
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Re: Military buffs, can you identity?

Post by Chappo » 04 Apr 2019, 7:57 pm

Murringo nsw.
I know the post office there opened in 1857.
About 200m apart he also found a smaller plain button that had “firmin & sons London” stamped on it.
I’ve googled firmin & sons. Interesting reading!
Last edited by Chappo on 04 Apr 2019, 8:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Military buffs, can you identity?

Post by TassieTiger » 04 Apr 2019, 8:05 pm

If anyone wants a general idea on where to start looking for some cool stuff with a metal detector - this was recently shown to me - google the location of old railway stations in your area and then try and pin point where the ticket booth would have been in reference to the platform. Bit of luck, you’ll find an area near by where coins were dropped by the patrons, in between platform / booth areas and never recovered from many years ago...a mate of mine has amazed me with what he has found on some old west tassie stations....
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Re: Military buffs, can you identity?

Post by JimTom » 04 Apr 2019, 8:35 pm

Mate I have been doing a little research and you can almost guarantee it’s British military as we thought. The Horn on the button seems to be reasonably common amongst those older British units, and in my experience, a staff and snake typically denote medical corps. I shall keep on looking.
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Re: Military buffs, can you identity?

Post by JimTom » 04 Apr 2019, 9:23 pm

Most, but not all British military badges, buttons etc, generally have a crown, and depending on what type of crown it is will help you date it to an era, i.e kings or queens crown.
No such luck in this instance. Back to the drawing board.
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Re: Military buffs, can you identity?

Post by Chappo » 04 Apr 2019, 9:33 pm

I’ve found that an images search of “rifle regiment buttons” shows heaps that feature the powder horn.
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Re: Military buffs, can you identity?

Post by bigrich » 05 Apr 2019, 4:52 am

With the variety of people from all over the world that came out to Australia, ya might have something really unusual. Who knows, it might have come from the uniform of a military surgeon as the snake around the sword suggests , but as someone else pointed out British military had crowns on most of their buttons. Maybe a retired military man from Prussia , France or god knows where came out here as a settler. A lot of Germans of the Lutheran religion migrated out here . The sugar cane growers south of Brisbane are descended from them
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Re: Military buffs, can you identify this?

Post by Rod_outbak » 05 Apr 2019, 10:24 am

Had a quick look around for similar yesterday, and have a couple of ideas.

1). Powder horns tend to be used to designate either military infantry or rifle regiment/battalion/etc. - In some instances, volunteer rifles.
[Cannon depict artillery, snakes depicted medical, anchors usually depict marine, etc etc]

2). Is it a powder horn or just a horn? I dont know what would show it as being one of the other.

3). Quite a few British buttons DONT have the crown on them; it depends on the era, and the particular regiment.
Crowns seem much more common in later designs, but not as much in what I've found from the 1800's

4). Looking at similar designs of powder horns, the closest designs I saw were dated from just prior to the US civil war.

5). The metal on the back seems weird for a standard button(usually a loop of some design). It looks different to nearly every button back I saw. I wondered if it was actually a cap of some sort, and the metal on back being the remains of a seal-cap, but I didnt find anything that matched.

6). I didnt find any buttons that combined a snake, a sword, staff and powder horn.

7). After looking at around 500 different buttons (mostly British, some French, and some USA), I didnt see anything even close to the same design.

8). Not very many buttons that I saw have any sort of shaping (crenation??) around the outer rim. Quite unusual; suggests it would be more expensive to make than the normal service coat buttons.

From the buttons I looked at, I'd guess either British of an as-yet unknown regiment, or a volunteer infantry group from before the US civil-war era.

My 2 cents worth.

An interesting find; to be sure!
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Re: Military buffs, can you identify this?

Post by brett1868 » 05 Apr 2019, 10:38 am

Might not actually be a powder horn due to the belling and could be related to the signaling corps.
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Re: Military buffs, can you identify this?

Post by Chappo » 05 Apr 2019, 10:39 am

Rod_outbak wrote:Had a quick look around for similar yesterday, and have a couple of ideas.

1). Powder horns tend to be used to designate either military infantry or rifle regiment/battalion/etc. - In some instances, volunteer rifles.
[Cannon depict artillery, snakes depicted medical, anchors usually depict marine, etc etc]

2). Is it a powder horn or just a horn? I dont know what would show it as being one of the other.

3). Quite a few British buttons DONT have the crown on them; it depends on the era, and the particular regiment.
Crowns seem much more common in later designs, but not as much in what I've found from the 1800's

4). Looking at similar designs of powder horns, the closest designs I saw were dated from just prior to the US civil war.

5). The metal on the back seems weird for a standard button(usually a loop of some design). It looks different to nearly every button back I saw. I wondered if it was actually a cap of some sort, and the metal on back being the remains of a seal-cap, but I didnt find anything that matched.

6). I didnt find any buttons that combined a snake, a sword, staff and powder horn.

7). After looking at around 500 different buttons (mostly British, some French, and some USA), I didnt see anything even close to the same design.

8). Not very many buttons that I saw have any sort of shaping (crenation??) around the outer rim. Quite unusual; suggests it would be more expensive to make than the normal service coat buttons.

From the buttons I looked at, I'd guess either British of an as-yet unknown regiment, or a volunteer infantry group from before the US civil-war era.

My 2 cents worth.

An interesting find; to be sure!


My thoughts exactly.
The metal on the back looks more like a clasp possibly for a belt, sling, cap etc but not a button.
Possibly for ceremonial purposes?
It appears to be mild steel and rusted whereas the badge is not and I can’t identify the metal used.
I’m thinking pre federation British but only because it was found near a Firmin & sons button.

I’ve sent an email to the Canberra war museum and a British war memorabilia website.
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Re: Military buffs, can you identify this?

Post by JimTom » 05 Apr 2019, 12:26 pm

Good idea mate. Please let us know what you come up with.
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Re: Military buffs, can you identify this?

Post by pomemax » 05 Apr 2019, 12:34 pm

Decoration from a horse harness / bridle seeing a powder horn a tomahawk and sword would be nice
to see cleaned up
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Re: Military buffs, can you identify this?

Post by trekin » 05 Apr 2019, 12:58 pm

Rod_outbak wrote:Had a quick look around for similar yesterday, and have a couple of ideas.

1). Powder horns tend to be used to designate either military infantry or rifle regiment/battalion/etc. - In some instances, volunteer rifles.
[Cannon depict artillery, snakes depicted medical, anchors usually depict marine, etc etc]

2). Is it a powder horn or just a horn? I dont know what would show it as being one of the other.

3). Quite a few British buttons DONT have the crown on them; it depends on the era, and the particular regiment.
Crowns seem much more common in later designs, but not as much in what I've found from the 1800's

4). Looking at similar designs of powder horns, the closest designs I saw were dated from just prior to the US civil war.

5). The metal on the back seems weird for a standard button(usually a loop of some design). It looks different to nearly every button back I saw. I wondered if it was actually a cap of some sort, and the metal on back being the remains of a seal-cap, but I didnt find anything that matched.

6). I didnt find any buttons that combined a snake, a sword, staff and powder horn.

7). After looking at around 500 different buttons (mostly British, some French, and some USA), I didnt see anything even close to the same design.

8). Not very many buttons that I saw have any sort of shaping (crenation??) around the outer rim. Quite unusual; suggests it would be more expensive to make than the normal service coat buttons.

From the buttons I looked at, I'd guess either British of an as-yet unknown regiment, or a volunteer infantry group from before the US civil-war era.

My 2 cents worth.

An interesting find; to be sure!

I don't think it is Americian. Yanks use a staff with two serpents and wings as their medical symbol, where the true symbol is only one snake and no wings.
This is known as the Rod of Asclepius (Greek: Ράβδος του Ασκληπιού, Rábdos tou Asklipioú; Unicode symbol: ⚕), also known as the Staff of Asclepius (sometimes also spelled Asklepios or Aesculapius) and as the asklepian, is a serpent-entwined rod wielded by the Greek god Asclepius, a deity associated with healing and medicine. The symbol has continued to be used in modern times, where it is associated with medicine and health care, yet frequently confused with the staff of the god Hermes, the caduceus.
The caduceus on the other hand, (☤; /kəˈdjuːʃəs, -siəs/; Latin cādūceus, from Greek κηρύκειον kērū́keion "herald's wand, or staff") is the staff carried by Hermes in Greek mythology and consequently by Hermes Trismegistus in Greco-Egyptian mythology. The same staff was also borne by heralds in general, for example by Iris, the messenger of Hera. It is a short staff entwined by two serpents, sometimes surmounted by wings. In Roman iconography, it was often depicted being carried in the left hand of Mercury, the messenger of the gods, guide of the dead, and protector of merchants, shepherds, gamblers, liars, and thieves.
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Re: Military buffs, can you identify this?

Post by trekin » 05 Apr 2019, 1:07 pm

The "powder horn" may also be a trumpet.
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Re: Military buffs, can you identify this?

Post by bigrich » 05 Apr 2019, 2:31 pm

trekin wrote:The "powder horn" may also be a trumpet.


I had considered this theory myself. It might be from a scot or Irish immigrant who served with some sort of volunteers regiment back in Britain that’s a bit obscure and not well known. The “decorated edge reminds me a little of some of the engraving ya might see on a scot highland sword or the buckle on some of their kit . The plot thickens. This is a great little mystery
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Re: Military buffs, can you identify this?

Post by Stoney » 06 Apr 2019, 6:45 pm

Firemans badge or button.
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Re: Military buffs, can you identify this?

Post by Chappo » 06 Apr 2019, 7:43 pm

Stoney wrote:Firemans badge or button.


Fireman?
Explain why?
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Re: Military buffs, can you identify this?

Post by Stoney » 06 Apr 2019, 8:18 pm

Its not military, looks more civil. I could be very wrong.
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Re: Military buffs, can you identify this?

Post by MislMan » 08 Apr 2019, 10:14 am

I think this could be a button/medalion from an awarded medal. The medals that are worn above the left breast pocket of formal uniforms during military high level functions. That might help explain the attaching hardware as well as the trim around the edge.
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Re: Military buffs, can you identify this?

Post by zhuk » 11 Apr 2019, 1:40 am

pomemax wrote:Decoration from a horse harness / bridle seeing a powder horn a tomahawk and sword would be nice
to see cleaned up


DON'T clean it. I did a bit of voluntary work in the Australian museum conservatory dept years ago, you will destroy any historical value if you don't know what you're doing.
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