The Non Climate Change Bushfire Discussion

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Re: The Non Climate Change Bushfire Discussion

Post by Bill » 14 Jan 2020, 11:41 am

Trekin if you dont keep up with the news down south then im not sure why your commenting, plenty of places that had hazard reduction recently and they went up.

RFS hey, that would be like my dad and uncle who have 100 years experience between em.
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Re: The Non Climate Change Bushfire Discussion

Post by Member-Deleted » 14 Jan 2020, 12:23 pm

Lets get something straight here Fire Hazard Reduction does not stop country from burning unless it was done and not regrown . Fire Hazard Reduction removes large amounts build up of ground cover which leads to less hotter and less larger fires when it does burn making it easier to control the fire. Of cause burnt back areas will burn after regrowth but it won't have the devastating affect that 2-10yrs ground cover will have . i'm not sure that some people commenting on here actually know how burning off actually works . Its not the be it all end it all remedy for fires but its a must in controlling fires combined with breaks and the maintenance of them
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Re: The Non Climate Change Bushfire Discussion

Post by trekin » 14 Jan 2020, 12:33 pm

Bill wrote:Trekin if you dont keep up with the news down south then im not sure why your commenting, plenty of places that had hazard reduction recently and they went up.

RFS hey, that would be like my dad and uncle who have 100 years experience between em.

Your deflection only makes your ignorance on the subject appear even greater. One should hope that men of such experience would pass on some of their knowledge to you, but, maybe their experience tells them they can not teach someone not willing to learn.
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Re: The Non Climate Change Bushfire Discussion

Post by Bill » 14 Jan 2020, 1:46 pm

nice try trekin but the only deflection I can see is coming from a QLDer who clearly knows SFA about the NSW or VIC fires. get off the internet and go and visit a region that has been burnt then get back to me :thumbsdown: :thumbsdown:
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Re: The Non Climate Change Bushfire Discussion

Post by Bill » 14 Jan 2020, 1:57 pm

Trekin I grew up 400km west of Sydney, my families been farming the same valley for 150 pharkin years, 3.5 years ago we had a nor westerly breeze blow in early August that was 25 deg and 35kmh (this is highly abnormal) and I said to my dad at the time that the season was gone and most of our neighbour who had Canola in would be lucky to get seed back. Turned out true and my father managed to sell his place early Jan 2017 on the gut feeling that we were entering a long dry period. Since then it has gotten drier and drier and we have had abnormally hot season for the last 2 that havent occurred in the previous 100 years. You can lecture from 2000km but you dont seem to get the situation that we are dealing with down south, infact most city folk dont even get the devastation that has occurred. So keep grandstanding that your some kind of expert on hazard reduction or backburning or that you even know whats going on down here :thumbsdown:
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Re: The Non Climate Change Bushfire Discussion

Post by Member-Deleted » 14 Jan 2020, 3:24 pm

Gee bill you sound like we QLD people know nothing about fires well mate something I must point out is Fire does not discriminate QLD,NSW, SA, VIC, NT and if you come from the land you of all people should know that all over Australia lower ground cover will and does help reduce the intensity of a fire nobody was having a go at you it is a known fact. all and I say all fire fighters around Australia know that lower ground cover is better than heavy cover ,heat, wind and drought are just extra liabilities they have to deal with when fighting fires .Yes it's true I've never fought Victorian or NSW fires but like I said your best bet of controlling them is remove what cover you can prior to the blaze then it takes local knowledge ,guts and machinery . why do you try and tear a new one for those who don't think along your lines ? it doesn't make your case any better mate you make big statements about me being only a QLD'er and knowing SFA about the southern fires well mate fires are fires and if you don't know , In all states fires are fought in similar ways depending on intensity and access . so in summing up on your statements well if your fires are so different down there, then are they wasting tax payers money by sending QLD'ers down to fight your fires and also bringing over American fire fighters to fight them also ? Your wrong about one thing anyway I've been through fires similar to yours mate and fought them day and night for weeks ,( Have you) I have felt the peoples loss when this tragic thing happens ,I've seen the dead animals and charred country that was crops ,I've seen the Anguish on peoples faces that have lost everything so mate before you write me off just as a QLD'er that knows SFA about your fires take some of your own advice and get your facts right and stop pretending that you are the only one that knows anything .And tearing Trekin a new one to me sounds like someone who has lost his lollies , mate lighten up for Christ sake
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Re: The Non Climate Change Bushfire Discussion

Post by marksman » 14 Jan 2020, 3:32 pm

l dont understand why a NSW/VIC bushfire hazard reduction would be any different to a QLD bushfire hazard reduction :unknown:

l do know from reports written from lefty greenys protesting burnoff's that a hell of a lot of our vic fire areas have not had hazard reduction for 60 years
and that only 9000 hectares were burnt off instead of 140,000 hectares :wtf:

l like the comment added from markandsam after works youtube vid " if we don't manage the bush nature will" :clap:

l've been thinking a bit about what Doc said at the start of this thread about maybe letting the aborigines look after the land,
the koori's know the land a lot better than we do, been here a lot longer and there not scared of burning off, they consider fire there friend

from the link "Aboriginal techniques are based in part on fire prevention: ridding the land of fuel, like debris, scrub, undergrowth and certain grasses. The fuel alights easily, which allows for more intense flames that are harder to fight."
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/01/12/worl ... index.html

but its actually what of a lot of the white fella's on here are saying, unna bunji (am l right mate) :drinks:
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Re: The Non Climate Change Bushfire Discussion

Post by Member-Deleted » 14 Jan 2020, 3:46 pm

YEP ! ( Yes) :thumbsup: :lol: :lol: Sorry marksman mate I just couldn't resist :lol: ''SORRY'' :thumbsup: :drinks:
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Re: The Non Climate Change Bushfire Discussion

Post by sungazer » 14 Jan 2020, 3:59 pm

The Aboriginals didn't do burning of the land for the purpose of bush fire control however, They did it as a way of hunting. They lit fires to drive the animals out of the scrub or bush and into the waiting hunters. Sorry I just dont give them the credit they are trying to claim as the great masters of the environment.

The only difference between the States and how bush fires act may be due in part to humidity levels but that can change dramatically on the direction of the wind. In some parts of QLD the coast is protected from the really dry westerly winds from over the desert by the mountain ranges. The same and reverse is true for different parts of Victoria. Its why our temps in Vic can vary 20 or more degrees in the space of an hour or two.
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Re: The Non Climate Change Bushfire Discussion

Post by Member-Deleted » 14 Jan 2020, 4:43 pm

Yes sungazer all very valid points and another thing with them burning was to make it easier to get around after it was burnt . there was a degree of master planning with the burns as to contain it to reasonably medium areas by them because a raging fire that burnt out thousands of acres would drive the animals too far and too big of an area, so the burns were common and frequent so as to not let a major burn exist this kept the animals in a tighter area also hunting in open country was difficult some scrub was needed and this was done by colder fires and planed burns . I can remember back when my grandfather had a paddock with lots of noxious weeds and ordinary weeds which out grew the grass he would pull the cattle from it and let build up ground cover to get a hot burn this would kill most of the weed and give the grass a chance . He picked his time to get the best heat and burn for killing the weeds so this burning has been used for many things not only reducing ground cover
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Re: The Non Climate Change Bushfire Discussion

Post by Bill » 14 Jan 2020, 4:49 pm

ofcourse every state has bushfires and but conditions vary across the country and HR is an important tool for fire management around populated area's, but this time things are got a little too dry and no amount of HR would have prevented the the big lightning lit blazes, to argue otherwise just show that you havent seen the conditions on the ground. I noticed patches of brown tree crowns up and down major freeways south of sydney and down the south coast well before the fires started, something Id never seen before.

Looking at the weather forecast there are some promising signs for later this week, I just hope everyone gets some :thumbsup:
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Re: The Non Climate Change Bushfire Discussion

Post by Member-Deleted » 14 Jan 2020, 5:36 pm

Yes Bill that's true I haven't seen the ground coverage down there and yes the lightening will light fires that grow in size and intensity . I understand what you are saying mate but even lightening fires need large ground cover to grow to intense we have them up here also this is why the pre preparation ( That seemingly hasn't been happening too often down there) has to be done prior to fire season. I absolutely agree these fires will turn devastating to life and property but they need the right fuel , the right amount of fuel ,wind and temperature all of which we have plenty in Australia and this being so, all the more to pre plan , pre burn, amongst other things. this won't stop the fires from starting it will make them less severe and more controllable at best. From what I've been hearing from people I know down there some of these areas that have been devastating haven't been burnt for years so this area would support the intensity of carrying that inferno at tree top level , ( a fire you cannot beat once its under way) this is where ground cover doesn't matter and this is why people are saying ( it didn't help being pre burnt) as the fire is above it. but if in the original start of the fire the areas were devoid of large amounts of ground cover then the inferno would not have occurred in the first place it would not have got the momentum or the heat to cause combustion at tree top level even in eucalypt country. Rather than debating something that has many remedies our thoughts should be with the people lost ,those that are fighting the fires the people helping those in need and ones that have lost everything or anybody caught up in it all . My thoughts are with them and god bless them all
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Re: The Non Climate Change Bushfire Discussion

Post by Stix » 14 Jan 2020, 6:11 pm

I cant help but think maybe arguing sematics in cirles from mis typed &/or misunderstood posts here fellas... :)

No point having a pissing comp over territory, or over depth of knowledge on this given subject either--particularly when were on the same side... :)

Its dry...we all know that...
We all also know backvurning does help--to say it doesnt help is to be deluded...just as to say that an area backburned wont burn again...of course it will...!!...just not as hard, & depending on conditions & how long since, it'll give better opportunities to contain...
Because a backburn takes a skim off of the top of the fuel load, it doesnt wipe it out alltogether...

And conditions are over-all hot & dry, but also very localised...
A farm i shoot in the mallee the farmer was calling drought 2 years ago, & his paddocks were a dust bowl...not normal for him at all--even when its dry...yet that year he had bugger all rainfall yet did ok with crops...
Yet this year, he had more rainfall than Adelaide, but everything went into feed & almost nothing for harvest--all because the rainfall was at the wrong times...
All the while, a farm just a few kms south of him had bumper harvests, & then a fire... :crazy:

Its trying times out there, we all know that--yes---even some of us city dwellers... :D ...

I also agree with sungazer about the indigenous burn-offs...they used fire for food...it just so happens that our flora has evolved to benefit & self heal from the effects of fire...there is nothing that suggests to me they were ecologists...they just werent as destructive as us, because they mined for roots & wichety grubs that self replenished......rather than us who mine for coal & copper rendering the land useless...
Given they were nomadic, once a given area was torched with nothing left, they moved on...nothing scientific about that...& yet they managed it better than we can... :lol:

I could just imagine their culture with social media pre white fellas....imagine the change.org peririons because the tribe burned out an area of scrub to feed the hords some roo meat... :lol:

Putting it in that perspective makes us white fellas look pretty stupid in many ways i rekon...
Ah well... its all Scomo's fault anyway... :roll: ...& now the polls say Albo is the ducks nuts... :lol: ... :roll:
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Re: The Non Climate Change Bushfire Discussion

Post by Member-Deleted » 14 Jan 2020, 7:44 pm

I reckon Stix if you melted down all politicians and made candles out of them it wouldn't be bright enough to see inside a matchbox
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Re: The Non Climate Change Bushfire Discussion

Post by Sergeant Hartman » 14 Jan 2020, 7:57 pm

All this talk and still many of the fires this year were lit by arsonists.
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Re: The Non Climate Change Bushfire Discussion

Post by allthegearandnoidea » 14 Jan 2020, 8:55 pm

The Aboriginals didn't do burning of the land for the purpose of bush fire control however, They did it as a way of hunting. They lit fires to drive the animals out of the scrub or bush and into the waiting hunters. Sorry I just dont give them the credit they are trying to claim as the great masters of the environment


If you read "The Biggest Estate on Earth" you'll see that Aboriginals undertook large scale land management through burning and non burning practices. As said - much more than just opportunistic burns to drive animals - though this was a a practice for hunting.

According to the book...
Aboriginal people worked hard to make plants and animals abundant, convenient and predictable.

By distributing plants and associating them in mosaics, then using these to lure and locate animals, Aborigines made Australia as it was in 1788, when Europeans arrived.

Where it suited they worked with the country, accepting or consolidating its character, but if it didn’t suit they changed the country, sometimes dramatically, with fire or no fire.

“No fire” because a conscious decision not to burn also regulates plants and animals. They judged equally what to burn and what not, when, how often, and how hot. They cleared undergrowth, and they put grass on good soil, clearings in dense and open forest, and tree or scrub clumps in grassland.
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Re: The Non Climate Change Bushfire Discussion

Post by marksman » 14 Jan 2020, 9:32 pm

this is what l have been reading as well, not the same book but there traditional burning healed the land

this is very small part of what l have been reading:

"Prior to European contact, Aboriginal peoples across
Australia used fire as a tool for managing Country.
The cultural use of fire is a socially and ecologically
complex practice, governed by kinship, eldership,
spiritual connections to Country and environmental
interactions with fire. Cultural landscapes that extend
beyond and across western administrative boundaries
imposed through colonisation are also considered.
Aboriginal Victorians used cultural burning for a wide
range of purposes, including protecting Country,
providing habitat for wildlife and the harvesting
of resources."

l dunno maybe it should be a part of a fire hazard reduction scheme :unknown:
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Re: The Non Climate Change Bushfire Discussion

Post by Member-Deleted » 14 Jan 2020, 11:12 pm

No sungazer you're not racist mate there is not a race of people on earth that won't take an opportunity to gain some thing if the chance arises the indigenous are no exception but on saying that they do have very complex ways in the old way of life burning is one of them . and I agree their system should be incorporated into the way fires are managed throughout Australia. most graziers patch burn to get green feed growing back for the cattle this was learnt years ago from the old people and many trees and grasses have evolved to needing fire for germination or regrowth
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Re: The Non Climate Change Bushfire Discussion

Post by trekin » 15 Jan 2020, 4:24 am

Gee bill you sound like we QLD people know nothing about fires well mate something I must point out is Fire does not discriminate QLD,NSW, SA, VIC, NT and if you come from the land you of all people should know that all over Australia lower ground cover will and does help reduce the intensity of a fire nobody was having a go at you it is a known fact. all and I say all fire fighters around Australia know that lower ground cover is better than heavy cover ,heat, wind and drought are just extra liabilities they have to deal with when fighting fires .Yes it's true I've never fought Victorian or NSW fires but like I said your best bet of controlling them is remove what cover you can prior to the blaze then it takes local knowledge ,guts and machinery . why do you try and tear a new one for those who don't think along your lines ? it doesn't make your case any better mate you make big statements about me being only a QLD'er and knowing SFA about the southern fires well mate fires are fires and if you don't know , In all states fires are fought in similar ways depending on intensity and access . so in summing up on your statements well if your fires are so different down there, then are they wasting tax payers money by sending QLD'ers down to fight your fires and also bringing over American fire fighters to fight them also ? Your wrong about one thing anyway I've been through fires similar to yours mate and fought them day and night for weeks ,( Have you) I have felt the peoples loss when this tragic thing happens ,I've seen the dead animals and charred country that was crops ,I've seen the Anguish on peoples faces that have lost everything so mate before you write me off just as a QLD'er that knows SFA about your fires take some of your own advice and get your facts right and stop pretending that you are the only one that knows anything .And tearing Trekin a new one to me sounds like someone who has lost his lollies , mate lighten up for Christ sake

The question asked of Bill has been answered to the satisfaction (and bemusement) of me and the boys up at the shed, by his deflection of the question and his assumption that he is speaking to people in the city, who he believes, are too young or have no experience, or have no connection to the bush.
As for a new one, I could really use a new one after the old one got reamed by a dose of the liquid ****** the other day.
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Re: The Non Climate Change Bushfire Discussion

Post by Bill » 15 Jan 2020, 7:27 am

I guess if your bemused by the southern fires then you win Trekin and if you think kind words on the internet is having you back then you are strange fellow indeed. :violin:
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Re: The Non Climate Change Bushfire Discussion

Post by marksman » 15 Jan 2020, 8:16 am

No sungazer you're not racist mate there is not a race of people on earth that won't take an opportunity to gain some thing if the chance arises the indigenous are no exception but on saying that they do have very complex ways in the old way of life burning is one of them . and I agree their system should be incorporated into the way fires are managed throughout Australia. most graziers patch burn to get green feed growing back for the cattle this was learnt years ago from the old people and many trees and grasses have evolved to needing fire for germination or regrowth


+1 :drinks: your not racist for having a view :thumbsup:

l must be racist about politicians then because l am very skeptical giving them control of money for anything :lol:
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Re: The Non Climate Change Bushfire Discussion

Post by Stix » 15 Jan 2020, 8:59 am

Well i understand what you guys are saying...(Aboriginals land management)

I dont for a moment think they werent connected to the land that sustained them, but i dont think its right to clasify them as some lot of gods who didnt make any mistakes...and any doco's ive seen, whether that be of full blood old school tribes, or the ones carrying on tradition with modern tools, i havent seen anything in the way of empathy for the animals they hunt either...so they may preech respect for the land & how it sustained them, but contradict that in many ways also...
And no im not trying to be divisive... :)

I have no doubt that in a lot of cases, they couldnt controll the fires they lit, not like we have the capability of doing, & so many of them wouldhave got out of controll...i cant help but wonder how many had a far greater adverse effect than they had anticipated.
Having said that, as i first said here, i dont mean for thet to suggest they had no connection to the land, or any idea on how to manage it for themselves either... :)


But all that aside,the land is completely different now, so i dont think using just "their way" will help at all when it comes to fires...

I think some of the principles they used are most valid, but we know & understand them anyway, yet we dont use them in a lot of cases...

Look at the fire breaks we have as compared to what they had...by that i mean how much land white fellas have cleared for grazing & cropping...look at all the mallee regions of SA & Vic...the cypress forrests felled & cleared in NSW...all the open wooded forrest accros the country now all stubble fields...

We have domestic dogs gone feral, & with this & grazing meaning no dingoes, we have removed the kangaroo's natural population stabeliser...

The land is completely different to what it was before white man invaded & settled...using some principles of the native's would be a good thing, but to let them manage the land in regard to bushfire mitigation, based on what it was then wouldnt do any good.

We have the knowledge to better manage it, utilising experience gained from all areas & cultures, yet we let ego's & opinion get in the way & choose to lay blame on whoever we want--regardless of it being their fault or not -(aka--its all scomo's fault because he was on a holiday-- :roll: )...

Anyway, im not trying to dismiss the Indigenous ways at all... just saying the land is different now--very different indeed...!!...whether it be bushfires or Aboriginal affairs, we need to better manage it, & manage it for what it is, not for who is right based opinions...get off our arses & be proactive, rather than sit around pandering to the popular vote & the offended minority groups...!!

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Re: The Non Climate Change Bushfire Discussion

Post by Member-Deleted » 15 Jan 2020, 11:35 am

Yeah stix a little of everything would be better than whats happening now
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Re: The Non Climate Change Bushfire Discussion

Post by Member-Deleted » 15 Jan 2020, 11:50 am

Well Bill , ''nice try Trekin but the only deflection I can see is coming from a QLD'er who clearly knows SFA about NSW and Vic fires get off the internet and go visit a region that has been burnt then get back to me '' not a crack bill .Not questioning my experience just having a crack hey, YES you're right having a crack at someone is low and frankly disgusting so Bill ''DON'T do it
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Re: The Non Climate Change Bushfire Discussion

Post by Sergeant Hartman » 15 Jan 2020, 1:02 pm

Awww look, people are getting their bikini bottoms in a tight knot. How about everyone have a chill pill.

While the country is the same, and fire is same. Same way i being in VIC might not understand all the intricacies hunting in QLD, or those hidden spots. I would say probably the topology of east Gippsland might be different than say northern QLD.
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Re: The Non Climate Change Bushfire Discussion

Post by Member-Deleted » 15 Jan 2020, 1:24 pm

Nobody said any different ziad but you're off the mark i'm talking ''FIRE'' and fire needs 3 major ingredients no matter where in the world you put it and they are , OXYGEN ,FUEL and HEAT given the right amounts it is lethal . You hunt dogs the same way in NSW, VIC, WA in all the states same goes for Deer, goats any other animal just select one and hunt. it's the traits of individual people that is different not the hunting.
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Re: The Non Climate Change Bushfire Discussion

Post by marksman » 15 Jan 2020, 2:05 pm

Ziad wrote:Awww look, people are getting their bikini bottoms in a tight knot. How about everyone have a chill pill.

While the country is the same, and fire is same. Same way i being in VIC might not understand all the intricacies hunting in QLD, or those hidden spots. I would say probably the topology of east Gippsland might be different than say northern QLD.


ziad no different than what l said "l dont understand why a NSW/VIC bushfire hazard reduction would be any different to a QLD bushfire hazard reduction :unknown:"

l dont understand why the hunting intricacies would be different from VIC to QLD :unknown:

having been lucky enough to hunt deer and pigs in both states l found it to be no different :?
l dont know why maths has anything to do with it :unknown: topology :unknown:
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Re: The Non Climate Change Bushfire Discussion

Post by Stix » 15 Jan 2020, 2:14 pm

:lol:
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Re: The Non Climate Change Bushfire Discussion

Post by sungazer » 15 Jan 2020, 5:06 pm

I just read an article by Ron Owen on ozgunsales http://www.ozgunsales.com/listing/77581 ... _owen.html He makes some good points about the things we have discussed such as fire breaks, fire access roads, dams built in the bush for fire trucks which are all good points.

However like it seems all media he goes way to far especially in the opening paragraphs about people affected by the fires not getting any money from the government and insurance companies taking to long to pay out ect. All doom and Gloom type stuff. I can say from first hand experience from the Black Saturday fires which this was not the case. Within two days the Government relief agencies had given out $1000 to all those effected that turned up to the relief centers on the spot. This was really welcome as there were immediate needs and personally I didnt have power for three weeks. We we loaned a generator to aid with essentials such as making ice for the fridge and more importantly just runing the pump on the water tank so we could shower.

The insurance companies all had tents at the relief centres and although traffic was controlled to locals only on some major roads for about two weeks for security purposes the insurance assessors were there in that period and claims processed very quickly to get you on your feet. There were special circumstances made to allow for initial payments and then as you discovered things that were lost could make additional claims.

I can only speculate but from each fire these type of support centres and organizations have learnt to help people and to know what to expect as well.

There are certainly issues that have been raised here like the fire access tracks, breaks and reversing the closing up of crown land to people that will lessen and help fight fire in the future. But to completely slander the good work that is done by so many and give misinformation to further any cause is inexcusable in my book.
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Re: The Non Climate Change Bushfire Discussion

Post by marksman » 15 Jan 2020, 6:04 pm

a couple of points you have bought up sungazer that l think need looking at are the locking up of crown land, national parks, the closing of fire tracks and water points in the bush for the fire trucks

IMHO l dont like public land being locked up, all it does is create a rubbish dump of tree litter making fuel for a bushfire
been hearing this for years especially from fireys who put themselves on the line and cockys who have to live next to it
but of course the greenys think its wonderful :lol:

a hell of a lot of bush tracks end up having trees dropped over them by lefty/greeny types to stop access in victoria and need to be maintained
be a good way of giving someone a job

water points are very important in the bush but there are not enough of them, they are not maintained, usually overgrown so the fire trucks cant get to them
l know this because they are also used by the animals l hunt and see the state of them, a fire truck will empty them in one go

as to what Ron Owens views are, all l can say is that his experiences may not have been the same as yours :unknown:
at the moment people are pretty raw about the fires :drinks:
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