Safety, I’m Puzzled

[Oldbloke]

Sooo. I have a long standing interest in Safety/OHS.

Generally speaking shooter/hunters always spruuck about safety when handling/using firearms and just about every hunter I have gone out with has been conscientious. In fact rare to hear other wise. Shooting Ranges, very regimented, perhaps even over the top. But no complaints here.

But, often/occasionally here on the forum (and others) I read comments that are far from safety first. To be clear I’m not targeting anyone. This is a general observations of late and in the past.

Just a few examples. (in general terms, not quoting)
Quad bikes, no need for ROP or helmets.
Seat belts, nope, don't need therm.
Covid, just let it rip, a few oldies will die but only a bit earlier than expected!
Don't think there is a need to wear life jackets.
And a few stories about accidents people have had as a result of doing silly things.

To be fair the above comments don’t seem to be the majority view.

And to make a point, I have seen this many many times in a lot of industries. "Be safe doing this or that, then walk around on a slippery 2 story tin roof." She'll be right mate.

So whats the deal here. It’s seems to me its required to be safe using firearms but for other activities or situations don’t bother. What is driving this cavalier approach? Or have I got it wrong.

I’ll duck under the table now!

[duncan61]

As a 59 year old plumbing contractor I will weigh in.I have seen and done some dumb stuff over the years and got lucky.Its up to the Individual to make the call on any situation it is normaly rushing that causes most issues .Regarding fire arms I went to a range on Saturday but we got lost and arrived too late to do the field rifle detail and they had just started the walk up which was members only.I had a chat with the rangemaster and as he explained the safety aspect I made the comment [Accidents with high powered rifles are often permanent] . So its a bit different from hitting your hand with a hammer.Its also a bad look for us bad LAFO when something goes down.I personaly am content semi autos are off the table as in my shooting history every accident seemed to be someone climbing a fence with a semiauto shotgun or .22LR and shooting their buddy when it went bang.Bolt actions you can keep the bolt up and it will not go bang.Semis you have no Idea if its live without opening it.After that comment I am getting under the table with you

[Oldbloke]

As a 59 year old plumbing contractor I will weigh in.I have seen and done some dumb stuff over the years and got lucky.Its up to the Individual to make the call on any situation it is normaly rushing that causes most issues .Regarding fire arms I went to a range on Saturday but we got lost and arrived too late to do the field rifle detail and they had just started the walk up which was members only.I had a chat with the rangemaster and as he explained the safety aspect I made the comment [Accidents with high powered rifles are often permanent] . So its a bit different from hitting your hand with a hammer.Its also a bad look for us bad LAFO when something goes down.I personaly am content semi autos are off the table as in my shooting history every accident seemed to be someone climbing a fence with a semiauto shotgun or .22LR and shooting their buddy when it went bang.Bolt actions you can keep the bolt up and it will not go bang.Semis you have no Idea if its live without opening it.After that comment I am getting under the table with you

I'll try to make you feel welcome. lol

[niteowl]

Sooo. I have a long standing interest in Safety/OHS.

Generally speaking shooter/hunters always spruuck about safety when handling/using firearms and just about every hunter I have gone out with has been conscientious. In fact rare to hear other wise. Shooting Ranges, very regimented, perhaps even over the top. But no complaints here.

But, often/occasionally here on the forum (and others) I read comments that are far from safety first. To be clear I’m not targeting anyone. This is a general observations of late and in the past.

Just a few examples. (in general terms, not quoting)
Quad bikes, no need for ROP or helmets.
Seat belts, nope, don't need therm.
Covid, just let it rip, a few oldies will die but only a bit earlier than expected!
Don't think there is a need to wear life jackets.
And a few stories about accidents people have had as a result of doing silly things.

To be fair the above comments don’t seem to be the majority view.

And to make a point, I have seen this many many times in a lot of industries. "Be safe doing this or that, then walk around on a slippery 2 story tin roof." She'll be right mate.

So whats the deal here. It’s seems to me its required to be safe using firearms but for other activities or situations don’t bother. What is driving this cavalier approach? Or have I got it wrong.

I’ll duck under the table now!

Interesting, I have read all the above mentioned posts and wondered if anybody saw things the way "oldbloke" has.
It is my opinion that people can do what they damned well like with their own safety............ but DON"T expect a rescue helicopter, marine rescue or a hospital etc with all the risks and the HUGE associated expenses involved to come to your aid, (all paid by OTHERS) to save your arse!!!!
Yes I am OLD and have survived so far by just thinking a bit. In my younger day I have also done some questionable things but realized it was not smart.
So, if you don't care about yourself, go for it but be prepared to go it alone.
OK oldbloke just make room under the table for me too.

[bladeracer]

I don't agree with nannying people...but, we live within a society that tries to support and protect its people, which means we have responsibilities that go with those benefits. If my taxes are paying for free medical and financial support for people that get injured or sick, then it is only fair that people take at least some responsibility to reduce the risks that they take. If a motorcycle helmet, seat belt, or facemask reduces the risk of somebody adding themselves, or somebody else, to the public welfare burden, a responsible person accepts their responsibility. I much prefer to educate people so they can make their own informed choices than to simply generate more and more laws forcing people to comply, without educating them properly about the benefits.

But, I think we are evolving into a very "me, me, me!", "I want it now!" society, with little thought to "tomorrow", or "consequences". I watch a lot of criminal investigation stuff, and two things often stand out to me, egocentricty and zero sense of "tomorrow". If people realised the world is not all about them, and that "tomorrow" is the direct result of "today", so many of these crimes simply wouldn't happen.

[mickb]

A thread like this is designed to start fights. Arguing about safety is like arguing religion.

so I'll give my 2c. Safety is often second. Otherwise you would just cancel non essential passtimes that take lives or injures. Every sport, hobby or recreation kills people, some quite a lot, and most of them are not necessary to do.In a lot of cases you cant completely avoid or engineer the risk out so you accept a free life means sometimes the ultimate safety( not doing something dangerous) takes a back seat to the freedom to do it. In other words lifestyle is more important than life at times.

Where the balance is...its a decision that somes from a mix of public perception and also socities big players and industry... which unfortunately can also see safety as profit and control factors. Its why personally I am also leary of too much safety brainwashing. Particularly where the 'one life is more important than anthing" shtick becomes a religious mantra. Because you can shut down any sport or anything at that point without an argument,

[bigrich]

well . i worked for a metal foundry in brisbane , big mulit national company, bradken . and it was drummed into us that the individual ultimately has the final say on their personal safety . so if your supervisor tells you to do something dumb and you get hurt, it's on you as you should've refused . legally that's where it's at and some of these big companies make you sign all sorts of forms that you acknowledge that so it's harder to sue or get compensation if things go bad .
they had a deffective dust extractor in this plant that got worse as the years rolled on and i ended up with occupational asthma . they tried to screw me in all sorts of ways (a really epic tale that's worth a 60 minutes TV story ), i proved my case in the end and was payed out and let go .

but the politics and hipocracy was incredible . the lady safety officer when i confronted her about the situation on advice from the union, gave a safety lecture to the shifts in my section on silicosis and lung diseases to cover her own arse . two days later she was made redundant

health and safety is a out of control beurocratic monster , that basically tries to "idiot proof" everything as people don't take responsability for their own actions anymore . i've seen lots of risky behaviour at times, and in my opinion there's a fine line between brave and stupid

JMHO

[PaddyT]

Hmm cant comment on the quad bikes (no knowledge), always wear a seatbelt, Covid is also out of my area of expertise but will comment on the rockfishing and lifejackets-been a rockfisho since i was 13 but mainly fish from a boat these days and have spent 15 years running a swim school and been involved in water safety for a damn long time. I DONT think compulsary wearing of LJ's on the rocks will save lives, first of all the number of folk killed rockfishing is very small (consistantly for the last god knows how many years about a dozen per annum in all of OZ). Inevitably the story seems to be -Rockfisho killed -but there was a weather warning for dangerous swell etc, . There is never any account of was the fisho a strong swimmer, did they have correct footwear (around ****** and the sandstone ledges to the north and south a pair of cleats or metal spikes is essential), were they simply too uncoordinated not to fall in?, do they know how to read the weather and the sea? The LJ issue has been pushed rellly hard by the Surflifesaving movement who are no friends of fishos . The overall drowning statistics for Australia show that just as many drown while scuba diving or snorkelling , over 100 souls are lost in inland waterways every year but the only activity being singled out for compulsory LJ's is rockfishing- does this sound familiar to us shooters? So thats why i write letters to the Minister about that.

[Bugman]

Unfortunately in the past few years, at the Club I am involved in I have seen some stupid breeches of safety, and at times right in front of the "hierarchy" of the club itself.
It appears that if your in the "in crowd" and you make a mistake, a little quiet word in your ear is the go, but if you are just another club member, then be prepared to be bellowed at by said "hierarchy, in front of other members.
I think in any club, you as a shooter, are the first line of safety, if you are not prepared to go by the safety rules, for whatever reason, then most definitely, you should not be using a firearm

[mickb]

Id happily roll safety back 30 or 40 years. I dont remember the 1980's being a warzone of cars crashing into burning buildings lacking smoke detectors while an unleashed pitbull attacked drowning kids in the backyard pool without a fence, while a forklift without chocks rolled backwards into mums front garden and murdered the guy with an unlicenced gun stalking the family who neede the money because his whole workplace just closed down from 'trip hazard and computer posture' related deaths.


Is there are space left under the table for me oldbloke

[Shootermick]

I don't agree with nannying people...but, we live within a society that tries to support and protect its people, which means we have responsibilities that go with those benefits. If my taxes are paying for free medical and financial support for people that get injured or sick, then it is only fair that people take at least some responsibility to reduce the risks that they take. If a motorcycle helmet, seat belt, or facemask reduces the risk of somebody adding themselves, or somebody else, to the public welfare burden, a responsible person accepts their responsibility. I much prefer to educate people so they can make their own informed choices than to simply generate more and more laws forcing people to comply, without educating them properly about the benefits.

But, I think we are evolving into a very "me, me, me!", "I want it now!" society, with little thought to "tomorrow", or "consequences". I watch a lot of criminal investigation stuff, and two things often stand out to me, egocentricty and zero sense of "tomorrow". If people realised the world is not all about them, and that "tomorrow" is the direct result of "today", so many of these crimes simply wouldn't happen.

Me me me, I want it now. No thought about tomorrow. Sounds like my wife.

[on_one_wheel]

Safety is for sissies

[Oldbloke]

Safety is for sissies

Why?

[on_one_wheel]

Safety is for sissies

Why?

Seriously .... did I really need to add a "sarcasm" emoji to make it obvious I'm kidding?

[Strangedog]

I would form an argument that all the OHS bombardment is dumbing down people to an extent they don't actually evaluate what is dangerous because they expect a regulation to be in place to protect them. Education and personal responsibility is much more important than legislation when it comes to safety.
In reference to our natural safety with firearms. There are two points to be made here. The first is that as my dad taught me from a very young age, you don't get second chances with guns, if you have an AD and it's pointing at someone, they are likely dead. It's just different to so many other dangerous things, you can make a couple of mistakes with them and it probably won't be a big deal. Not with firearms. The second point is this. The fact we are all so safety aware with firearms is due to education, not legislation, there is nothing written in law it's just common practice amongst gun owners to be very safe. That in itself just backs up my philosophy. The fact that safety laws encroach on our freedoms, as a gun owner and libertarian freedom is very important to me and that's why I don't like increased safety rules in society.

[mchughcb]

Personally I think everybody that works in OH&S should be tested to make sure they are not senile.

[Oldbloke]

Safety is for sissies

Why?

Seriously .... did I really need to add a "sarcasm" emoji to make it obvious I'm kidding?

I did suspect.

[duncan61]

I got ya on one wheel

[boingk]

Just a few examples. (in general terms, not quoting)
Quad bikes, no need for ROP or helmets.
Seat belts, nope, don't need therm.
Covid, just let it rip, a few oldies will die but only a bit earlier than expected!
Don't think there is a need to wear life jackets.
And a few stories about accidents people have had as a result of doing silly things.

Screw quad bikes. Seen plenty of people gett majorly fahrked up on them. One poor lass was mustering and turned over on a hill, got knocked out, and woke up to the smell of pork. It was her inner thigh, pinned against the hot engine and cooked almost to the bone. Quads can eat a big one, safety up or just take a car.

Seatbelts won't do bugger all under 50kmh. Over that put it on or die. Either way, belt up or suffer the consequences.

Life jackets? Yeah, wear them. There's a reason. Its called drowning. Most people who drown have suffered head injuries while entering the water, are intoxicated or both. *sips beer*

Covid?

Nah, let her rip. Its the goddamn flu, just a new strain. Happens every year and no-one gives a hoot. Everyone wants to blame China though so go figure.

Know how many die from the regular old flu in Australia? About 400 to 500 per year. Suicides? Fives times that, well over 2000. Road deaths? About 1000 in recent years, versus almost 3800 back in 1970 with a steady decline to current levels.

You know what? You gotta die from something. Most people who die from COVID are over 80 and already suffering at least 2 other illnesses. Protect those people, let the rest of us get goddamn well on with it already.

[Oldbloke]

The first is that as my dad taught me from a very young age, you don't get second chances with guns, if you have an AD and it's pointing at someone, they are likely dead. It's just different to so many other dangerous things, you can make a couple of mistakes with them and it probably won't be a big deal. Not with firearms. .

Perhaps this is an important point.
In society there is, let's say 5% of people who simply DGAF about other people and are often risk takers themselves. These people usually at some stage in their lives suffer serious injuries or simply die younger than most.

But if he/she above is a shooter, whilst using firearms might become more risk aware. Purely because of the obvious additional risk. But would not otherwise.

I have been told the people on the ASD do not understand risk and lack empathy.

[mickb]

Perhaps this is an important point. In society there is, let's say 5% of people who simply DGAF about other people and are often risk takers themselves. These people usually at some stage in their lives suffer serious injuries or simply die younger than most.

Oldbloke , more like 66% are risk takers. 2/3 of people these days are fat. Being 150,000 peope die a year with the biggest killers as heart, blood vessel, kidney disease and arse cancer etc all exacerbated by being a nation of obese lardguts, they are taking more risks than not wearing a seatbelt.

I found it funny on minesites all the doctine on safety and the importance of not having some random tool dropped on your head. Then the safety officer and the other miners would heave their 120kg guts around smoking 30 durries a day and 3 helpings of dessert back at the camp....

Also look at the last 80 years of automobiles that can exceed the speed limit for absolutely no good reason. We added seatbelts and airbags whilst ignoring the elephant in room, all the dumb kids killing themselves and others driving cars designed to go 2x faster than legal.

Safety doesnt come first there, it comes second to profits.

Safety is an important concept but they turned it into a religion of complete inconsistency, like most religions.

[TassieTiger]

Take away peoples need to develop common sense and you create a volatile and a falsely secure environment - I see it every day at work, where people now feel that corporate have safety teams, so they are safe no matter what...I see it on the roads everyday - "I'm below the speed limit so I can text, not concentrate, etc because Im safe"...In my humble - many, many safety teams have taken it a step to far.

[Strangedog]

Take away peoples need to develop common sense and you create a volatile and a falsely secure environment - I see it every day at work, where people now feel that corporate have safety teams, so they are safe no matter what...I see it on the roads everyday - "I'm below the speed limit so I can text, not concentrate, etc because Im safe"...In my humble - many, many safety teams have taken it a step to far.

Yep. People don't take responsibility for their actions. I've seen people come out of a mine job where safety rules are OTT, into a small operation working for someone and they are a lability on the worksite. If there isn't a set of rules and barriers they have no-idea about what might be dangerous.

[marksman]

Take away peoples need to develop common sense and you create a volatile and a falsely secure environment - I see it every day at work, where people now feel that corporate have safety teams, so they are safe no matter what...I see it on the roads everyday - "I'm below the speed limit so I can text, not concentrate, etc because Im safe"...In my humble - many, many safety teams have taken it a step to far.

your spot on there Tassie

there should be more common sence and OH&S is only there because of litigation

imagine this, l'm wearing a safety harness at 2.5m off the ground but the safety harness has a 3m rope

l am a Qld ticketed WH&SO and have seen it all from working as a scaffolder, the workers couldn't even wait for the scaffold to be built to start pulling it apart
or the new straight from uni building inspectors who come and ask me if the scaffold is made correctly as she watches it being pulled apart
now l believe it has to be signed off and checked but that's why every man and his dog get there basic scaf ticket
probably one of the worst things l've seen that comes to mind is a bricky walking the plank to put a couple of bricks in while his mates are standing on the plank to stop it tipping over, he was at over 10m in height and italian, no offence to the italians its just that they had no rules at that time and no fear

hey OB you dont really believe this do you "Covid, just let it rip, a few oldies will die but only a bit earlier than expected!"
although we all have different thoughts on how the CCP virus is being treated l dont believe anyone wants that

[bigrich]

Covid?

Nah, let her rip. Its the goddamn flu, just a new strain. Happens every year and no-one gives a hoot. Everyone wants to blame China though so go figure.

Know how many die from the regular old flu in Australia? About 400 to 500 per year. Suicides? Fives times that, well over 2000. Road deaths? About 1000 in recent years, versus almost 3800 back in 1970 with a steady decline to current levels.

You know what? You gotta die from something. Most people who die from COVID are over 80 and already suffering at least 2 other illnesses. Protect those people, let the rest of us get goddamn well on with it already.

well maybe there's people in our society , or even on this forum , that aren't ready to die from covid just yet . it's killed quite a few younger than 80 mate . myself , i had cruppe really bad when i was a kid , about 8 or 9 years old at the time. i spent two weeks in a oxygen tent with collapsed lungs . as a result i have scarring on the lungs and suffer shortness in breath at times . me getting covid doesn't seem like a good idea , cause at 52 i'm not ready to die yet buddy
your right in that there are lots of deaths from other causes, smoking related being a very high cause of death that's self inflicted . i think you should listen to the working conditions of doctors and nurses who are trying to save peoples lives who aren't in that high risk elderly catagory . i'm not happy with the current situation in this country due to covid , but a little empathy for your fellow aussies would be appreciated . who knows , maybe your more suseptable to covid than you think

[Oldbloke]

MM. My comment was general intentionally. And simply my interpretation. There have been plenty of comments strongly suggesting we drop the restrictions and let the covid take its course. Obviously this will result in a higher death rate, particularly in the older population. So I think the statement is fair enough. Again not point ijng the finger. Of course that's my opinion, some may disagree.

But the intent of the thread was:
(perhaps I wasn't very clear in the OP)
Why are shooters so conscientious about shooting safety, but seem less conscientious about safety outside shooting? I would have thought shooting would further encourage safety throughout life, well more so.

[marksman]

l'm glad to hear your comment was general intentionally. And simply my interpretation
l didn't think you could seriously think that just because others have there own interpretation and think there is a better way it does not mean they want to sacrifice anyone's life you were just joking

also l'm pretty sure you have an answer to your question:
"Why are shooters so conscientious about shooting safety, but seem less conscientious about safety outside shooting?"

a) at work it's about litigation, so to keep your job you have to go through health and safety courses as well as inductions all for the employer's insurer so when you do the wrong thing they can say you were trained not to so the employer is not at fault using bad work practices

b) when shooting/hunting ect... its about litigation as well, eg.. you have an incident where you accidentally shoot uncle ernie there will may be a court case

c) safety at home becomes controversial because there is no way in hell you are going to jump through the hoops you have to at work regarding safety eg.. you will not have or get the safety gear needed to adjust your tv antenna on your roof by the workplace health and safety rules, legislation or regulations
you will make a decision on how you will do it using common sence and do the job as safely as you can, without drama

its funny because l dont believe employers want to hurt their employees, although the rules are set for them they but do put their employees at risk everyday eg... our healthcare workers who still cannot get the right PPE for the job they are doing
https://www.change.org/p/australian-gov ... r-covid-19

[Ferrisweil]

Unfortunately natural selection is dead so stupidity is breeding and there are now more idiots making stupid decisions. This is why everything on the planet is now over-regulated and controlled so idiots don’t hurt themselves.
Common sense is also dead and you can simply swap those words with “natural selection” in the above paragraph.
People also won’t take responsibility for stupid decisions and therefore want to sue someone when s$&t hits the fan, so again, our safety in all that we do is over regulated.

[ThatNewGuy]

I'm probably towards the younger end of the shooting world in aus anyway. However I had lab partners in physics & chemistry during school that have, Set my arm on fire by not following general safety when using a bunsen burner, trip and drop red hot metal on to my hand and finally had nitric acid spilt on me. After the 2nd event happend I just started requesting to work alone except whenever it is absolutely required.

So my 2cents on the subject is be as careful as you possibly can doing anything much to the dismay of everyone (family & friends) it seems as it is viewed as "Un-Australian" by them and as such im overreacting, so that if everything goes awry at least you messed up on your terms it seems.

(My grammar atrocius i'm quite aware)

[mchughcb]

Perhaps this is an important point. In society there is, let's say 5% of people who simply DGAF about other people and are often risk takers themselves. These people usually at some stage in their lives suffer serious injuries or simply die younger than most.

Oldbloke , more like 66% are risk takers. 2/3 of people these days are fat. Being 150,000 peope die a year with the biggest killers as heart, blood vessel, kidney disease and arse cancer etc all exacerbated by being a nation of obese lardguts, they are taking more risks than not wearing a seatbelt.

I found it funny on minesites all the doctine on safety and the importance of not having some random tool dropped on your head. Then the safety officer and the other miners would heave their 120kg guts around smoking 30 durries a day and 3 helpings of dessert back at the camp....

Also look at the last 80 years of automobiles that can exceed the speed limit for absolutely no good reason. We added seatbelts and airbags whilst ignoring the elephant in room, all the dumb kids killing themselves and others driving cars designed to go 2x faster than legal.

Safety doesnt come first there, it comes second to profits.

Safety is an important concept but they turned it into a religion of complete inconsistency, like most religions.

Correct Mickb. The first OH&S guy I knew, and great guy he was too, weighed over 135kg and guess what he died of? Heart attack.

Then I remember have a discussion with another OH&S guy who said nobody should ever die on site. I said what if they die of a heart attack? He said that is totally unacceptable death.

Some OH&S officers are good but most are box ticking oxygen thieves that should be rounded up and fired into the sun.