Solving the worlds energy crisis - 1 step at a time...

[TassieTiger]

stalling doesn't mean stopping, its just a general term for the lack of action, in any case I understand entirely your concept, but dont see it working in the slightest myself, not in any equitable fashion. remember perpetual motion is mathematically possible but not a reality. so even if you get it working as a thought experiment its not guaranteed to work

Wtf ? Perpetual motion? Geezus...there’s a jump lol.

[Ziege]

dont be daft just saying that concepts are well and good but the math may be more generous than the reality

[TassieTiger]

also peak power is only for 4 hours a day, so you essentially only have maybe 6 hours of useful pumping time, unless your array can follow the sun, but even then you only stretch it out a little. so you will end up with 60L per min max (less because impeller(s) and whatever else like joiners and so on) through your 1" pipe, you need to be able to use that low pressure (cos gravity only) feed to create energy, at 70L/m you will get a tad over 25,000L and that will only flow for 7 hours at 60L/min, I just dont see that kind of flow making much of any electricity

Real issue that I’m looking at resolving is the storage of “energy” without having to utilise insanely expensive batteries...and then HOW to best utilise that stored energy...might be...? This is what concept actually is...design is steadfastly deciding on equipment...so constantly banging on about 1 inch pipe? Means nothing...
Re turbines vs wind - you do know of actual hydro projects in use? snowy river, 90% of Tasmania power, etc ? Have you actually witnessed a small hydro set up ? They are pretty cool to witness...especially tiny creek systems.
I’ve proven the concept that you can use excess solar energy to drive a dc pump (or 2 or 5)and explained it the best I can - it’s clear you dont understand this aspect. If a 6.6kw system (smallest of mum and dads systems) is generating only 4 hours of excess power at max(your number), that’s 24kws and 2000 amps to utilise for free - every day...hey - what size water pump could you run with that power? Lol...or don’t believe in solar ? Farmer Pete to the rescue lol.

7 hours would be enough night time power surely ?? You are on calculating on flow and not adding in the gravitational fall - again, 3kgs or thereabouts of water(volume) falling at 9.8 ms from 3.5 or so metres = a fair crack of force...certainly much, much, MUCH more force than small 1000w wind turbines requirements...
What power is needed over night ? Lights use bugger all, TVs, bugger all - heating and fridges? - probably not going to cancel them off grid completely unless they are refined components.
25,000 litres (again on the design, but I digress) - might be enough - might not? Depends what output can be achieved. Not enough ? Double up - test that...As I’ve said - conceptual idea. It’s likely that there is a recipe where it works at a smaller scale and a different recipe for larger scale...would it value add in the long term ? Maybe...maybe not. Gut feeling with clever design - it might.
Could a 3rd world hilly country, doze in a few megalitre dams above / below each other? and use a chesp solar array to fill one dam? What if the upper dam incorporates a creek? Maybe...maybe not. I bet 1000 x 3rd world homes would kill just for lights at night...

So, hey thanks for input. Kinda glad you weren’t on Apollo 13 project lol. “Well Z, we have this problem and these items to fix it with...” “sorry sir, but they are f***ed” lol

It might be a stupid idea...but what is really stupid is to have all that excess solar energy not being used or being sold for 4c a kWh.

[TassieTiger]

dont be daft just saying that concepts are well and good but the math may be more generous than the reality

I get it - just kidding.
This all started because I put a header tank in and then when I switched off DC pump...the water pressure from gravity would run back down the 5m length of hose...and it was coming down with so much pressure, it was reverse spinning the pump impeller at speed...light bulb moment lol. But that light might be halogen.

[Ziege]

yeah I just dont think it would be great output myself, as in the actual amount of energy usable at any given time. so I think that batteries albeit expensive would still be more equitable

reason I have stayed with the 1" pipe concept is that if you increase diameter you will increase the amount of liquid and therefore weight/force that can go through the system, however with an estimated 25,000 litres it seems that a "decent" pipe diameter, as stated above 100mm would churn through that in an impractical amount of time, so, in essence you would then have the capacity to create a lot of current, but then you wouldn't have it for long. loosely the current of the water passing the impeller is proportionate to the current created at the generator. also the scale/size of the generator can be exponentially increased as you have increased torque at similar rpm, so it makes perfect sense in the practical that the opposite is correct when scaling down to smaller diameter pipe ergo reducing the force*surface are ergo torque and therefore generator size therefore ending up in a smaller current overall. capiche?

[TassieTiger]

Well - I searched the almighty you tube and found a guy who is effectively doing it. A 2 inch pipe flowing at approx 50% and generating 170w - however, that 170w he is making at the house is significantly lower than at the generator as he has run the power cables 250 feet lol. But - it’s kinda close...to concept...the fall isn’t in this system thet I envision but it shows that gens might already be out there...
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nQcWcKAGPfs

[on_one_wheel]

How many meters of head are you working with?

[Ziege]

yeah 170 watts eek not even as much as 1 panel makes now, so halve that or even maybe more than halve it for a 1" to get your 7 hours of production and you only get 0.5kw and then you have to deal with voltage drop over distance/resistance.

[Ziege]

So given my onga is a standard transfer/pressure pump and its 55L/m and uses 1200 watts, lets be generous and say that your 70L/min pump uses the same (it will use more) and work it out over the 6 hours of viable pumpin time you have while the sun is beating down, so 6*1200 = 7.2kWh, so on top of your already used power during the day you need to produce another 7+kw at a minimuim to get that tank filled and primed to give you a .5kw return come night time for 7 hours, or a 1kw return for 3.5 hours come night time. so you basically will have spent 6+ kw to make 1 or less kwh of energy. that's before impedance and other issues scavenge power from your system too.

[eddievic]

So 2 inch pipe even at 50% flow is 30,000L per hour to make let's say 200w.

If you look around you can probably get a 2nd hand 30k water tank for 1000-1500...or about 3000-3500 new. Need two of them. Plus a pump. Plus your generator. Pipework etc.

Or you can get a few truck batteries with an old school inverter for under 1k (seen them in this world countries).

If its simple but no one has done it..... there has to be a reason.

[TassieTiger]

How many meters of head are you working with?

Ultimately - what ever would be optimal. I have 5m on my own pump but that was set up for a one way transfer...

[TassieTiger]

So given my onga is a standard transfer/pressure pump and its 55L/m and uses 1200 watts, lets be generous and say that your 70L/min pump uses the same (it will use more) and work it out over the 6 hours of viable pumpin time you have while the sun is beating down, so 6*1200 = 7.2kWh, so on top of your already used power during the day you need to produce another 7+kw at a minimuim to get that tank filled and primed to give you a .5kw return come night time for 7 hours, or a 1kw return for 3.5 hours come night time. so you basically will have spent 6+ kw to make 1 or less kwh of energy. that's before impedance and other issues scavenge power from your system too.

Something very wrong with your calculations or mine lol.

A 6kw system as on many homes (20 panels) will generate 6kw x 6 hours = 36,000w of power...
even using your 7,200kw for your onga...you’ve still got mucho surpluso of electrical energy...yes?

My 70l min / DC pump draws 15amps per hour.
4200 litres per hour for 15 amps.
15amps x 6 hours = 90amps x 12v = 1080 watts.
6 hours x 4200 litres = 25,000 litres.
1080 watts / 6 hours = 180w per hour...

Your onga I assume is 240v ?
1200/240 = 5 amps per hour.
6 hours x 5 amps = 30 amps for day.


170w / 12v = 14 amp production from his weirdo set up.

[eddievic]

TTi am not being a smartarse..... just blunt honest opinion as i see it.

[mchughcb]

This is done in several parts in Europe like Germany where they have some very high mountain lakes. They also use Hydro electric systems a lot on thier mountain rivers and streams. Even in some very small ones and small turbines for local city use. They will pump the water from a bottom lake to a mountain lake and then drain it to produce electricity when needed.

I did not know this Larry. This is exactly the sort of thing I was looking at - could it be made to work on a local, independent or community basis...?

either lake or even the sea.

https://www.energyaustralia.com.au/site ... 202017.pdf

[TassieTiger]

TTi am not being a smartarse..... just blunt honest opinion as i see it.

Your always a smart arse
I’ve posted this up to “kick it around” - it’s not going to upset me if I’m wrong mate. It’s ideas that move us forward - maybe not this one...but a spin off mAybe...maybe...but I enjoy tackling weird things like this and trying to think outside of the box.

Now please - check calculations above - either Z or myself are wrong - he has me questioning myself....lol.

The flow rate from this you tube river guy was very rudimentary- there was no head, it was very low and had uphill sections ffs, it was pathetic really and he still got a measly 170w.

The thing is - it’s free power regardless and solar doesn’t work at night. 170w will run a few LEDs, charge a few phones, and run a laptop.

Your correct re a few truck batteries but in some places - they can be few and far between...or just outright dead. Not many ppl throw good batteries away - but, I agree - they are definitely a component needed in what ever it is I’m proposing.

Back to old mates set up - optimistically, I’d have to concede that 500w appears that it might be a stretch...but again - don’t think about us...think about 3rd world, where 500w would run their 60 inch lcd screen (but not their sub woofers) and all the lights they could want or need - and maybe even a couple of those Indian hash pipes lol.
We take it for granted - amount of power available to us...

I’ll put it to you for perusal - a house hold in middle of nowhere (Russia) has a community 10kw solar system that works during the day but no electrical storage facility exists - how do you get these people electrical energy in the night ? (And no - the battery shed blew over in a sand storm and ole mate melted the battery lead to shoot his gun) - how would you do it ?

[eddievic]

Its a good question. The EA is similar to the snowy hydro 2... but seeing the report was written 2017.... and but not much has happened since then. It might be feasible but only on a giant scale.

To answer your windmill question, its because of the surface area of the blades, they are huge so even if the breeze is not very high, as the surface area is very large there is enough energy in it to provide the necessary torque. A simple example you stand at a cliff it is windy and feel buffeted. Put a 1inch water hose and nothing happens, but put a 100mm pipe from a irrigation pump and you probably go flying.

3rd world countries, don't have readily access to water. Further they will use a torch at night or.....lead acid batterie(s) with an inverter to power one or two lights and a fan. No laptops or refrigerators or AC there. Saying that you could run a fridge for 4 or 5 hours on 2 truck batteries... sure for a 3rd world wage they might be expensive... but a village could afford them. They take up little space and not much to break.

Idd personally been interested in wind power more than solar...but solar is cheaper due to subsidies

[TassieTiger]

Its a good question. The EA is similar to the snowy hydro 2... but seeing the report was written 2017.... and but not much has happened since then. It might be feasible but only on a giant scale.

To answer your windmill question, its because of the surface area of the blades, they are huge so even if the breeze is not very high, as the surface area is very large there is enough energy in it to provide the necessary torque. A simple example you stand at a cliff it is windy and feel buffeted. Put a 1inch water hose and nothing happens, but put a 100mm pipe from a irrigation pump and you probably go flying.

3rd world countries, don't have readily access to water. Further they will use a torch at night or.....lead acid batterie(s) with an inverter to power one or two lights and a fan. No laptops or refrigerators or AC there. Saying that you could run a fridge for 4 or 5 hours on 2 truck batteries... sure for a 3rd world wage they might be expensive... but a village could afford them. They take up little space and not much to break.

Idd personally been interested in wind power more than solar...but solar is cheaper due to subsidies

As previous posted - I work with solar, wind, batts, etc at remote locations on a daily basis.
The smaller wind turbines have huge losses vs drag and their output result is compromised as a result.

We recently found a 600w wind turbine smashed to pieces on a mountain that was inaccessible other than chopper. We reviewed remote cam footage - a wedge tail took a dump on a blade...it set hard and then put the turbine that far out of balance, it destroyed itself in the next 100kph gust - blew itself apart like an explosion.
To counter your torque argument - fill up a 2kg water bottle, get someone to lift it up on the roof - then drop it on your head...let me know if the torque is more than compressed on to a wind blade lol. Water has the mass...

Re fridge on battery...yeah - nah...yeah...2 truck batteries won’t do it A fridge is a humongous draw, despite only running for several minutes per hour - I’ve managed to get one running in my shed but I had to scale down the size of fridge to 280l and scale up batteries to 700ah(210kgs of battery) . The 240v fridges inverted to 12v are insanely power hungry...in winter months when day light hours drop - 3 cloudy days in a row saw my batteries drop to 11.8v and inverter would alarm for LV.
When designing an off grid system for house - the two household items, that suppliers generally write off is fridge and heating. Because these two items draw hard over night - where dishwashers, washing machines, etc can be operated in day time.

[eddievic]

https://lgindiablog.com/industrys-first ... -inverter/

Where there is a will there is a way...esp of there is lots of money to be made.

But here is another link talks numbers
https://www.quora.com/Will-a-1-000-watt ... frigerator

No the reason your 2kg milk bottle will hurt is due to the mass of the object and gravity... but once it hits it releases its energy.

I think you need to talk to the brewry guy... or someone at a university. They can explain more reasons than i and zeige can why what you say will not work. Someone more intelligent once told me the do not waste your time reinventing the wheel.

None of these mechanical systems are set and forget type. Batteries can catch fire and burn the house.

[TassieTiger]

https://lgindiablog.com/industrys-first-smart-connect-technology-run-your-refrigerator-on-home-inverter/

Where there is a will there is a way...esp of there is lots of money to be made.

But here is another link talks numbers
https://www.quora.com/Will-a-1-000-watt ... frigerator

No the reason your 2kg milk bottle will hurt is due to the mass of the object and gravity... but once it hits it releases its energy.

I think you need to talk to the brewry guy... or someone at a university. They can explain more reasons than i and zeige can why what you say will not work. Someone more intelligent once told me the do not waste your time reinventing the wheel.

None of these mechanical systems are set and forget type. Batteries can catch fire and burn the house.

Your startin to get it - the 2kg bottle will release its energy and hurt lol - but guess what’s behind that 2kg bottle? Another bottle and another bottle etc...obviously not exactly like that, and dispersion would factor in a reductive number - but the “push” from the water would be a constant and this in itself has an Initial benefits over wind...if I was inclined to do so, I’d take a 20 litre bucket on the roof and place some scales underneath and monitor - simple maths equates to force (mass of water in conduit x acceleration of gravity 9.8ms).
The reason you see wind turbines with lantern and sail type vanes - they are looking and searching for not additional rotational force, but less drag, via the trailing vanes...

[on_one_wheel]

How many meters of head are you working with?

Ultimately - what ever would be optimal. I have 5m on my own pump but that was set up for a one way transfer...

The height of your header tank is an extremely important part of the equation as height gives pressure.
10 meter of head = 14.2197 PSI.

In the absence of good height you will need massive volume.

Here's an interesting fact sheet on micro hydro electricity, it contains a useful formula to estimate your power generation potential.
https://www.cat.org.uk/info-resources/f ... cro-hydro/

Some interesting results can be found by googling "Water tower energy storage system"

[on_one_wheel]

Here's another concept to get the creative juices flowing...

Imagine pumping 5000L of water into a tank that's fixed at height to a system of levers and pulleys. That's 5 tonnes that can be multiplied several times by leverage.
Once the weight is at the end of its stroke it can drain and be easily reset the it's maximum height.

images (1).png (16.57 KiB) Viewed 4136 times

[TassieTiger]

That’s Awesome oow - it’s that kind of collaborative thinking that does mount up. And very interesting link - I’d hope prices are a bit better today - but it shows what’s possible.

[eddievic]

Here's another concept to get the creative juices flowing...

Imagine pumping 5000L of water into a tank that's fixed at height to a system of levers and pulleys. That's 5 tonnes that can be multiplied several times by leverage.
Once the weight is at the end of its stroke it can drain and be easily reset the it's maximum height.

images (1).png

5 tonnes is 5,000L not 50,000 you typed. I assume it was a typo. So is the picture a.... type of perpetual motion machine

[Larry]

This is done in several parts in Europe like Germany where they have some very high mountain lakes. They also use Hydro electric systems a lot on thier mountain rivers and streams. Even in some very small ones and small turbines for local city use. They will pump the water from a bottom lake to a mountain lake and then drain it to produce electricity when needed.

I did not know this Larry. This is exactly the sort of thing I was looking at - could it be made to work on a local, independent or community basis...?

Absolutely just like domestic or commercial solar or wind it can be put back onto the grid to help subsidize it. I went looking for the photos I took of the unit I saw but it was before digital cameras.
What they had done was take an off shoot of a main river and feed it into a holding pen that was about 20ft by 20 ft and only 10 ft higher than the turbine. I think to be viable you really need a full time running stream. I would set up a system in a heart beat if I had a river running through my property. Much better than wind or sun IMHO.

[Ziege]

I just skimmed through, its late and I've been driving all day, but I'm not seeing any solutions to the major inefficiencies, oh and as for my calc, its based on that "extra" energy you would need. in any case still think it would end up being more expensive, troublesome, and arduous and flawed than getting some batteries, hence people use batteries.

[TassieTiger]

Looks like ppl have beaten me to the idea anyway...
https://theconversation.com/how-pushing ... sues-28196

[trekin]

The ones who say "you can't" and "you won't" are probably the ones scared that "you will ".

[on_one_wheel]

Here's another concept to get the creative juices flowing...

Imagine pumping 5000L of water into a tank that's fixed at height to a system of levers and pulleys. That's 5 tonnes that can be multiplied several times by leverage.
Once the weight is at the end of its stroke it can drain and be easily reset the it's maximum height.

images (1).png

5 tonnes is 5,000L not 50,000 you typed. I assume it was a typo. So is the picture a.... type of perpetual motion machine

I think you need to see Specsavers, and the perpetual motion machine is in the picture below

[Oldbloke]

Here's another concept to get the creative juices flowing...

Imagine pumping 5000L of water into a tank that's fixed at height to a system of levers and pulleys. That's 5 tonnes that can be multiplied several times by leverage.
Once the weight is at the end of its stroke it can drain and be easily reset the it's maximum height.

images (1).png

Mate, FYI energy cannot be multiplied. It can only be changed/transformed.

In this case (the image) it is changed from one type of energy, motion to another type of motion energy (rotory).

And there will be further changes (losses) to heat in the form of friction. (Bearings and air resistance)

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/en ... -principle

[TassieTiger]

Here's another concept to get the creative juices flowing...

Imagine pumping 5000L of water into a tank that's fixed at height to a system of levers and pulleys. That's 5 tonnes that can be multiplied several times by leverage.
Once the weight is at the end of its stroke it can drain and be easily reset the it's maximum height.

images (1).png

Mate, FYI energy cannot be multiplied. It can only be changed/transformed.

In this case (the image) it is changed from one type of energy, motion to another type of motion energy (rotory).

And there will be further changes (losses) to heat in the form of friction. (Bearings and air resistance)

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/en ... -principle

Thus the reason to utilise the excess solar energy for something rather than nothing...changing the energy to something useful and if the excess cannot be stored in electrical form, then what better way to utilise it than storing it as mechanical energy for use when most needed...