Next bike: 900cc with traction control or 650cc without it

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Next bike: 900cc with traction control or 650cc without it

Post by Lorgar » 14 Jan 2021, 12:51 pm

A question for the more experienced riders among us.

I currently have a 400cc sportbike which I feel like I'm getting towards the end of my time with.

I've been riding for a few years and all my fundamentals are good. I can comfortably ring out the throttle through first and second and am comfortable with the acceleration/speed. I'm basically never "surprised" by the bike any more.

For city riding, which makes up 90% of my time, the 400c is plenty. The only area that really leaps out as lacking to me (this is really key to the upgrade) is when you're on the freeway at 80km/h - 100km/h and need to accelerate to overtake or for an increased speed limit. The acceleration in this circumstance is fine, but hardly impressive.

Top of my list at the moment is either the Kawasaki 2021 Ninja 650 or 2021 Z900. For reference the peak power of each is:

400cc - 33kw
650cc - 50kw
900cc - 90kw with traction control/modes

Now, on the one (probably more sensible) hand the Ninja 650 seems like an excellent and obvious choice. The size/style/ergonomics of the bike are very similar to my current one, so I'd basically be stepping onto the same bike but with 50% more oomph.

On the other, the Z900 has nearly triple the power, but comes with the full spread of modern rider aids. Traction control for the road, rain, etc. Improved suspension, brakes, blah, blah, blah...

As contradictory as this might seem for the inclusion of the z900, I don't want an ultra-fast bike. I don't race, I'll likely never go to the track, never in my life am I going to be ripping down a deserted highway at 200km/h+.

So my question is basically, do the rider aids actually make the 900cc a better option despite the huge step up in power, or is the 650cc a better way to go despite the lack of "safety net" technology.

I need to go and test ride both bikes, of course, but I'm not sure I can really get the answer to my question with a few test rides. Obviously I'm not going to take the z900 around the first soaking wet corner I can find at full throttle to try and wash out the rear end so I can say "Yep, the traction control saved me. Good pick".

Interested in feedback from anyone whose got proper time on comparable bikes.
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Re: Next bike: 900cc with traction control or 650cc without

Post by Member-Deleted » 14 Jan 2021, 2:45 pm

G'day Lorgar,
Based on what you've said, I reckon look hard at the 650:
As city riding makes up 90% of your time, the 650c is plenty. Freeway acceleration with the 650 will still not be impressive by bike standards but you will still hose 90% of all cars on the road, and you will notice the acceleration improvement over the 400cc. You said you don't want an ultra-fast bike. Realistically most riders cannot use all the power available to them with modern bikes anyway so the 650 can probably be ridden faster than you will ever want to.

That said, buying decisions with bikes are at least 50% with the heart. Ride them both and see which one stirs you. I just upgraded recently too. I've had three 650s over the past 30 years - Ducati, BMW, Suzuki. I just sold the Suzuki after 5 years and bought an FJR 1300 because I do a lot of two-up riding and wanted more oomph including when overtaking on highways. I haven't stopped smiling.
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Re: Next bike: 900cc with traction control or 650cc without

Post by boingk » 14 Jan 2021, 3:18 pm

Hi mate, the 650's nowdays are a really strong bike. You'll be able to overtake and do anything legal very easily. Check what the reg/insurance costs of a 650 vs 900 are as well. In NSW at least its much better to get a sub 750cc machine.

Have you considered the Yammies? The MT series is a bloody cracking couple of bikes. The MT-07 is a nice light naked twin and the MT-09 is a triple much like the Triumph Speed Triples. With 80 and 130hp on tap respectively and a light like to haul around they've both been winning journo praises for a few years now.

Plus... standard quickshifter on the MT-09....

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Re: Next bike: 900cc with traction control or 650cc without

Post by bladeracer » 14 Jan 2021, 3:19 pm

Are you riding in too high a gear on the freeway? On the ZX6R I rarely got above third around town, and fourth of fifth on the freeway in traffic. Only time to ever be in top gear is when there's no traffic around, otherwise you want to stay just in the bottom of the powerband.

I'm against electronic aids, but I learned to ride before they existed.
The slipper clutch is pointless, I don't use the clutch to change gears on any bikes, it's only for starting and stopping. The bike's transmission has all the gears turning at the same time, all you are doing is swapping between which set is driving the wheel, thus, no need for a clutch.

192kg and 67hp seems a lot of weight with weak power. My brother is currently riding a 900 Vulcan and has always moaned about the lack of power, now he's commuting an hour to Canberra he's looking for something better, and especially something with a fairing due to the rain and low temperatures.

For mainly city riding I'd prefer a 250cc to 400cc myself, the 600 is more than can be used, but is handy for wheelies. My old '88 GPX250R is tons of fun for getting around town, while getting better than 20kpl.

The Z900 has been an awesome stunting bike since it hit the market, very similar to the Bandit 1200. I haven't ridden the Z900 (I have ridden with them) but spent a fair bit of time on a mate's 1200 Bandits, really have to concentrate to keep the front wheel on the ground around town.

Have you ridden the older 250-fours, like the Bandit 250? Or the twin 250 sportsbikes? At city speeds, the GPZ250R is possibly the most fun I had on a bike, although the Bandit 250 comes close.

I also don't believe in borrowing money for a bike or car, unless it's a work expense. They devalue fast enough without adding interest. Borrowing also means you have to comprehensively insure it, which is a further waste.

Ringing out the throttle is a non-skill that will never help you stay alive, cornering and braking are the things you need to practice daily, several times daily, every time you get on the bike. Learning to brake effectively is what can save you, not traction control.
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Re: Next bike: 900cc with traction control or 650cc without

Post by No1Mk3 » 14 Jan 2021, 4:44 pm

G'day Lorgar,
Based on your post, I would suggest the 650 as your best choice to fulfill your needs as it will give you the extra mid-range grunt you feel the 400 lacks. The Z seems overkill for your desires, never going to open up on the back roads, never going to track, why go the extra expense even with the added safety do-dads which, like bladeracer, I don't really feel are needed as good observation skills will keep you safer than any fancy gizmo ever could. Can you hire a 650 for a weekend? Used to be a bloke off Elizabeth St had a lot of hire bikes, Cheers.
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Re: Next bike: 900cc with traction control or 650cc without

Post by womble » 14 Jan 2021, 6:21 pm

For commuting I’d want the low down torque of the bigger engine. Roll on acceleration gives you superior positioning among traffic. Better control of the buffer around you. Quick to make simple adjustments of your placement on the road, to basically compensate for all the s**ty drivers.
I commuted for about 30 years and survival comes down to not being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Torque is the key.
Placement in the lane and multi lane roads, avoiding blind spots, using the aware drivers to shield you from the dangerous ones, not getting boxed into a bad space etc.

The 650 would be the better choice for weekend twisties.

If you do advanced courses, hope you do, they will supply 650’s. This would be well worthwhile before buying a litre bike.
It will take you longer to grow into the bigger bike if you go straight from the 400. You’d still be competent enough, but perhaps not as confident to really chuck it around.
Explore the limits on the 650’s in a controlled environment, will fast forward your learning curve.
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Re: Next bike: 900cc with traction control or 650cc without

Post by boingk » 14 Jan 2021, 6:34 pm

Just an aside... if you're mainly worried about traction control I would advise to turn the damn thing off except possibly for the ABS.

I've ridden everything from 125cc fopur strokes on the freeway to litrebikes as daily small-town commuters, and never really wanted traction control. Learn to ride properly and you just dont need it. Theres a large proportion of riders who will argue that it promotes mechanical negligence in the rider; that is you become used to being able to do things with your right hand in a certian mode and then get caught out when not in said mode.

I would not bemoan the loss of traction control on any machine, but ABS is undeniably handy.

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Re: Next bike: 900cc with traction control or 650cc without

Post by womble » 14 Jan 2021, 6:52 pm

Agreed.
Really nfi why traction control for 90 killer wasps. Probably just to meet some bulls**t market compliance. Safety bulls**t.
Rip it off, throw it in the bin with your fender.
Apparently abs does beat skilled riders at pulling up quicker. Been proven beyond doubt.
Ride modes, rain, sport etc. whatever. Couple of years 90kw you’ll be slipping the clutch to try and make it pick up faster.
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Re: Next bike: 900cc with traction control or 650cc without

Post by Bill » 14 Jan 2021, 7:54 pm

Rode a Bmw R1200 R on a wet greasy road before Xmas and traction control would have been working overtime. 125Nm at very low revs made it stress free to ride. My RZ350 on the same road is a sketchy kill death machine in the first 3 gears.

ABS is a different kettle of fish and I doubt you'd even know you had it till you need it to save your life.....

With all the unmarked speed camera's these days id probably choose a mid range bike to daily, something with good vision and comfy seating, 650-900cc is heaps enough. Lol must stop looking at old TRX850's :drinks:
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Re: Next bike: 900cc with traction control or 650cc without

Post by boingk » 14 Jan 2021, 8:46 pm

womble wrote:Apparently abs does beat skilled riders at pulling up quicker. Been proven beyond doubt. Still gay, but yeah i spose.


Its not the pulling up quicker I'd be concerned about, but hard stops on varied surfaces. Let me explain.

I've had a few bikes, over a dozen. The big boppers that I enjoyed were a VTR1000F, CBR1000F and GSX1100EFE. The VTR I still have as its an amazing allrounder. The CBR was a ehavy goddamn pig of a thing but fun to ride and was cheap. The GSX was a brilliant sport tourer but let down by electronics of the era - its charging and wiring just sucked.

The Cibber I dropped during a hard brake coming up to a roundabout. A red VS commodore shot through and lit it up in front of me. I braked fairly hard, slowed almost to a stop from 45kmh, and then the front washed out on crack-patch snake lines. Fahrk!

The GSX was similar, road ripples didn't play well with the odd 16" front wheel setup and antiquated anti-dive. I locked it up frequently before I found that the pro-tip was an 'oversize' Shinko front tyre of a sepecific sidewall height.

My point is that ABS might no have stopped me quicker, but definitely would've stopped the butt-pucker moments I experienced and 99% would've stopped me from binning the Cibber.

Note that the CBR wasn't damaged, but had there been other traffic or inattentive drivers I may not be typing this.

ABS for the win. You can always pull the fuse if you go offroad.

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Re: Next bike: 900cc with traction control or 650cc without

Post by Member-Deleted » 15 Jan 2021, 7:52 am

Go and ride them both mate. That’s the only way you will know. Take them for a good squirt. Most bike shops are happy enough to let you go further than around the block these days.
I took out an Indian FTR1200 a couple of weeks ago. The sales guy just said be back before we close... so I clocked nearly 200k on it. Lol

Personally I’d go the Z. I think they are a better bike.
The 650’s are a little antiquated so to keep with LAMS crap
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Re: Next bike: 900cc with traction control or 650cc without

Post by GQshayne » 15 Jan 2021, 9:14 pm

My 2c.

All of these bikes are suitable. How much power is used is controlled by you, by the throttle. Simply open it up to your satisfaction. On most modern bikes, this is all you will need. There are exceptions, that are very focussed and would be horrible in traffic, but you are not looking at those.

For a bike that will do more than the other, I would be looking at the Z9. Having good low end power makes for enjoyable riding.
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Re: Next bike: 900cc with traction control or 650cc without

Post by Lorgar » 16 Jan 2021, 11:31 am

Member-Deleted wrote:As city riding makes up 90% of your time, the 650c is plenty. Freeway acceleration with the 650 will still not be impressive by bike standards but you will still hose 90% of all cars on the road, and you will notice the acceleration improvement over the 400cc. You said you don't want an ultra-fast bike. Realistically most riders cannot use all the power available to them with modern bikes anyway so the 650 can probably be ridden faster than you will ever want to.


Yeah, the 400 is already faster than 90% of cars even.

Agreed on the 650 being faster than I will ever want to go. Just looking for more of that usable mid-range I suppose. And really, this is more from 'want' than 'need'.
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Re: Next bike: 900cc with traction control or 650cc without

Post by Lorgar » 16 Jan 2021, 11:36 am

boingk wrote:Have you considered the Yammies? The MT series is a bloody cracking couple of bikes. The MT-07 is a nice light naked twin and the MT-09 is a triple much like the Triumph Speed Triples. With 80 and 130hp on tap respectively and a light like to haul around they've both been winning journo praises for a few years now.


I dismissed MT's a few years ago when I got my original bike due to fit.

I know their good rep, but I just wasn't comfy on them, unfortunately.

The midweight Kawasaki's are just the perfect fit for me, ergo wise.
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Re: Next bike: 900cc with traction control or 650cc without

Post by Lorgar » 16 Jan 2021, 11:39 am

bladeracer wrote:Are you riding in too high a gear on the freeway? On the ZX6R I rarely got above third around town, and fourth of fifth on the freeway in traffic. Only time to ever be in top gear is when there's no traffic around, otherwise you want to stay just in the bottom of the powerband.


2nd in the CBD, 3rd in the burbs, 5th on the freeway.

Don't get me wrong, the 400 isn't 'lacking' in capability for the freeway. It does everything you can (legally) do with no problems.

Can always drop down a gear for a burst of speed. Really just looking at more of that usable midrange to replace doing this, I suppose.
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Re: Next bike: 900cc with traction control or 650cc without

Post by Lorgar » 16 Jan 2021, 11:43 am

No1Mk3 wrote:Can you hire a 650 for a weekend? Used to be a bloke off Elizabeth St had a lot of hire bikes, Cheers.


As I put in the original post, it's more lack of being able to test the traction control etc. of the larger bike that is my query.

Not going to try and nearly have an accident for the sake of checking it out, obviously :lol:

Peter Stevens was the one on Elizabeth St, they've shut post-covid though.

Their new store is out in Ringwood, I think. I'll get there for a rise in due course.
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Re: Next bike: 900cc with traction control or 650cc without

Post by Lorgar » 16 Jan 2021, 11:45 am

womble wrote:The learning never ends, even 10 years in you think you’ve nailed it. But look back in 15 years and you still did’nt have it quite right.


I completely agree. Even after a few years of riding, on local roads I've ridden literally a thousand times I still find I'm doing this corner or that corner better and better.
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