Martin Bryant

[womble]

There were at least 25 wounded who lived to tell the tale. They know who shot them.
Inhisbineest is correct that it offends the survivors and those whom lost loved ones, to suggest he was’nt the shooter.

It was a very confusing day/night and theres a lot of information out there from the press at the time who were just reporting whatever secondhand rumours they could get.
We did’nt have the communications network we have today and the whole country was screaming for information.
People don’t have very good recollections under fear, stress and panic. Timelines get confused.
People could’nt register what was happenning and they were trying to make sense of it.
I can remember it dragging out all day and every news update being a new version of events.

There had been other mass shootings but the numbers from this one really shook people up. The numbers were difficult to fathom. It was an end of innocence.
The public were furious. They rallied in masses and demanded the banning of guns here.
Myself and no doubt many other shooters did’nt really look at guns the same way anymore either. The inconceivable had been conceived. It had become possible and made real.
Howard had always hated guns, really hated them considered them evil. But the NFA was bipartisan and swift.

If you really recollect the outcry from the public, including a great many who owned guns and just wanted to burn the things, wanted them gone from the house.
Then you’d realise how lucky we are to have any at all today. We were lucky to get any citizen ownership.

It’s difficult in hindsight to weigh up what is worth more. The lives that have been saved in decades following unquestionably, or the freedom we lost. Because there was a shift. It’s palpable and you can mark it to that day.

It was also morally wrong to hold all accountable in some measure for Bryants actions. That too is unquestionable.
In truth , far from the perspective todays forums will give you. There were far more gun owners than not, that agreed to the sacrifice.

Never ending conundrum

You seem like you have the links, are you able to link me the survivor's testimonies?

Not sure if that’s a serious question. Bryant pleaded guilty.
The real investigation was as meticulous as you’d expect. The event demanded as much. There was nothing for him to contest.
https://web.archive.org/web/20010508013225/http://www.shootersnews.addr.com/cttranscript.htm

[womble]

As many of us know some survivors still campaign till this day. Adler shotgun being a recent one.
So I’m not going down that path here because it’s conflicting.
But most survivors suffer with guilt. Wish they had have done more to help others. Most don’t like to talk about it. Unfair that it should define their lives ever since.
If you research you can find survivor accounts.

As i said earlier it did’nt make sense then and it still dose’nt now. Bryant himself did’nt make sense. Just lies and giggles.
He looks like one of us. That struck me at the time. Just looked like one of your mates. But whatever is inside that shell is’nt human.
It tried to mimic a human throughout it’s life. It’s mimic was gleefully sarcastic in the end.
It has’nt changed or evolved or grown over the passage of time, since we incarcerated it. It’s still exactly the same today.
Just that it’s shell has grown old and fat.

People have tried to make sense of it but there is none. Conspiracy theories were just another way to try and find answers or an explanation.
It’s only in more recent times that the far right has utilised it like any other conspiracy theory, to recruit the gullible as foot soldiers/ cannon fodder for rich oil tycoons and ogliarcs.

We did have a sense at the time that citizen gun ownership symbolised a free society. Being as in it was a universal consideration. Any government that had disarmed it’s population was not a free society. That was a given. But It was’nt necessarily American specific.
The American influence of gun policies/ politics here is a more recent one.

I think society here as a whole had more compassion and empathy for others then.
The century of self had’nt quite morphed into self entitled, to the narcissism that is more prevalent today.
When relayed such events as the little girls being chased around a tree like he was playing a game with them. Anyone would have done anything to give the father some relief from his suffering. Anything he asked of us.

It’s fair to argue much of what was adopted was unnecessary and the same results could have been achieved otherwise.
Would the masses have been satisfied with less though. No chance, no way.
This massacre was different,. It set a new precedent. If this could happen then what could come next. Something even more unimaginable.

Psychological explanations of Bryant have been Aspergers or schizophrenia, i must stress combined with other mood disorders. Because it’s extremely rare for either disorder in itself to be dangerous to the public. But he doese’nt really fit in any of those pigeon holes either. Savant perhaps with marksmanship. There’s really no fitting diagnosis for him.
He’s quite a unique abomination. Or it. Because with the lies and giggling and his demeanour throughout, it’s perhaps not too hard to accept demonic.

[straightshooter]

Dear Womble
The whole episode will continue to arouse suspicions and "conspiracy theories" purely because none of the formal and colloquial evidence was tested in open court.
As Bryant was induced to offer a plea of guilty, perhaps justly, and the various authorities did not see fit to hold a subsequent Royal Commission into one of the most serious incidents of it's kind in Australian history the scene was set for endless speculations.
Bear in mind that Bryant had/has an IQ of 66 roughly equivalent to an 11 year old and would have been quite susceptible to, and be lead by suggestion. For example the transcript of interview you referred to earlier would have been successfully challenged by Bryant's council even if that council happened to be Dennis Denuto.
The reality is only a select few actually know or will ever know the whole of what truly happened.
The rest of us believe what we are inclined to believe, sometimes in opposition to contradictory evidence.
In any case the incident did provide Howard the pretext to introduce the "uniform gun laws" he had been sitting on for some time prior.
By the way of odd coincidence Howard had at an earlier time, following mass shootings in NSW and Victoria, stated that such an incident in Tasmania was a necessary prerequisite for the introduction of his "uniform gun laws".

[womble]

I would agree with that.
There should be a royal commission. There are more people involved that need to be held to account and never have been.
It was however fair to spare the victims a trial. There was nothing to be gained from that for anyone except Bryant who would have revelled in it.

Relative to lafos it was’nt Bryant who changed our lives. That was not his achievement . It was Howards.

[Bugman]

Maybe so, but Bryant was the catalyst in this case.

[Die Judicii]

StraightShooter makes mention of Little Jackboot Johnnies "uniform gun laws"

If it weren't so serious, Howards uniform gun laws would have to be the joke of the century.
I believe we had more uniformity beforehand,,,, than we had/have now.

As far as I'm concerned the only and major improvement/benefit that came about as a result,,, is that now it is common practice that f/arms
be locked in a secure and approved safe/cabinet (and even that has no uniformity) as it varies from state to state.
Whereas prior,, firearms were more often than not stored "on top of wardrobes etc and considered ok cos they were supposedly out of children's reach.

The only real chance of gaining "uniform gun laws" would have been if administered federally.
Whether the end outcome was Little Johnnies doing/fault or not is now irrelevant, and we're forced to live with the bullsh#t discrepancies.

[Farmerpete]

StraightShooter makes mention of Little Jackboot Johnnies "uniform gun laws"

If it weren't so serious, Howards uniform gun laws would have to be the joke of the century.
I believe we had more uniformity beforehand,,,, than we had/have now.

As far as I'm concerned the only and major improvement/benefit that came about as a result,,, is that now it is common practice that f/arms
be locked in a secure and approved safe/cabinet (and even that has no uniformity) as it varies from state to state.
Whereas prior,, firearms were more often than not stored "on top of wardrobes etc and considered ok cos they were supposedly out of children's reach.

The only real chance of gaining "uniform gun laws" would have been if administered federally.
Whether the end outcome was Little Johnnies doing/fault or not is now irrelevant, and we're forced to live with the bullsh#t discrepancies.

I'll argue the point of firearms being locked up through s farmers/farm kids perspective
As a kid dad always had a sks in the shed sitting on the table. It was there to be used on pigs/wild dogs when seen. I knew not to touch it unless I wanted a boot up my arse.

Now if I see a pig/dog I have to go get the keys go to another room and unlock a safe then unlock another safe for the ammo and hope the pig/dog hasn't found cover by the time I get back. It's super safe but just not practical for farmers.

The reason I stayed away from the guns was I was taught what they were and what they could do we need to get back to teaching our kids about gun safety rather than locking them up and hopeing they don't find the keys

[on_one_wheel]

StraightShooter makes mention of Little Jackboot Johnnies "uniform gun laws"

If it weren't so serious, Howards uniform gun laws would have to be the joke of the century.
I believe we had more uniformity beforehand,,,, than we had/have now.

As far as I'm concerned the only and major improvement/benefit that came about as a result,,, is that now it is common practice that f/arms
be locked in a secure and approved safe/cabinet (and even that has no uniformity) as it varies from state to state.
Whereas prior,, firearms were more often than not stored "on top of wardrobes etc and considered ok cos they were supposedly out of children's reach.

The only real chance of gaining "uniform gun laws" would have been if administered federally.
Whether the end outcome was Little Johnnies doing/fault or not is now irrelevant, and we're forced to live with the bullsh#t discrepancies.

I'll argue the point of firearms being locked up through s farmers/farm kids perspective
As a kid dad always had a sks in the shed sitting on the table. It was there to be used on pigs/wild dogs when seen. I knew not to touch it unless I wanted a boot up my arse.

Now if I see a pig/dog I have to go get the keys go to another room and unlock a safe then unlock another safe for the ammo and hope the pig/dog hasn't found cover by the time I get back. It's super safe but just not practical for farmers.

The reason I stayed away from the guns was I was taught what they were and what they could do we need to get back to teaching our kids about gun safety rather than locking them up and hopeing they don't find the keys

There is no substitute for proper training. The type of training you received as a kid.

Children should be taught respect for the rules, boundaries, discipline and respect for others.

Now days children have rights, there taught to say "I'm not comfortable with this conversation " when they hear things they don't like or are made to be uncomfortable. They're getting around from the age of 5 thinking their adults that cam make their own decisions based on how they feel and what they want and scream bloody murder when they don't get their own way... I thought gen Y were a bunch of self entitled s**ts, I have little hope for gen Z
Old time values seem to have completely vanished and replaced with entitlement and self righteousness.

[Ziege]

all a bit too convenient for slimy howard and his cronies if you ask me. too many staged preparations for it to be all on bryants head entirely, most people like to be blissfully ignorant and trust the government and think that as long as they keep their nose clean and fly under the radar they will be fine, but surely as the days come and go, that same government never stops at eroding away liberties and freedoms and raising their status above the rest, no better way to keep the peons at bay than to disarm them, and since everyone is so happy to be fed their information by charles wooley and ray martin through some vacuum tubes and glass panel while they read their sunday times, they kinda deserve to be treated as sheep.

[Ziege]

I would agree with that.
There should be a royal commission. There are more people involved that need to be held to account and never have been.
It was however fair to spare the victims a trial. There was nothing to be gained from that for anyone except Bryant who would have revelled in it.

Relative to lafos it was’nt Bryant who changed our lives. That was not his achievement . It was Howards.

I dont believe in "sparing the victims a trial" that s**t is bulls**t, if someone is giving evidence to police about an accused, or giving testimony of an event where they describe the perp, they should definitely be made to verify that in court, also its about due course, no one should be made to face court/trial/questioning without being able to know their accuser and know the evidence against them, and have ample opportunity to cross examine, any evidence given by someone to the police, if not able to be cross examined, should be thrown out of the legal process as heresay as the witness did not front up and allow for a fair defence, this should be the case 100% of the time, no one should be guilty till proven innocent. as for his "confession" he made no such confession until his lawyer was unconstitutionally put aside by the government and their own crony took over the handling of his defence.

and I agree, all this misplaced anger at bryant should be aimed at both the liberal and labor parties equally as they both unanimously passed the now defunct and arbitrary and draconian gun laws we have to live with now. its not all howard, its the entire government.

[Member-Deleted]

I would agree with that.
There should be a royal commission. There are more people involved that need to be held to account and never have been.
It was however fair to spare the victims a trial. There was nothing to be gained from that for anyone except Bryant who would have revelled in it.

Relative to lafos it was’nt Bryant who changed our lives. That was not his achievement . It was Howards.

I dont believe in "sparing the victims a trial" that s**t is bulls**t, if someone is giving evidence to police about an accused, or giving testimony of an event where they describe the perp, they should definitely be made to verify that in court, also its about due course, no one should be made to face court/trial/questioning without being able to know their accuser and know the evidence against them, and have ample opportunity to cross examine, any evidence given by someone to the police, if not able to be cross examined, should be thrown out of the legal process as heresay as the witness did not front up and allow for a fair defence, this should be the case 100% of the time, no one should be guilty till proven innocent. as for his "confession" he made no such confession until his lawyer was unconstitutionally put aside by the government and their own crony took over the handling of his defence.

and I agree, all this misplaced anger at bryant should be aimed at both the liberal and labor parties equally as they both unanimously passed the now defunct and arbitrary and draconian gun laws we have to live with now. its not all howard, its the entire government.

This'll piss someone off....
Agreed!

[Die Judicii]

[quote="Farmerpete]


I'll argue the point of firearms being locked up through s farmers/farm kids perspective
As a kid dad always had a sks in the shed sitting on the table. It was there to be used on pigs/wild dogs when seen. I knew not to touch it unless I wanted a boot up my arse.

Now if I see a pig/dog I have to go get the keys go to another room and unlock a safe then unlock another safe for the ammo and hope the pig/dog hasn't found cover by the time I get back. It's super safe but just not practical for farmers.

The reason I stayed away from the guns was I was taught what they were and what they could do we need to get back to teaching our kids about gun safety rather than locking them up and hopeing they don't find the keys[/quote]

You seem to have missed one of the main points I was making.

Being a land owner myself as well as contract vermin shooting on other land owners properties,,,,, I am WELL AWARE of the difficulties/problems
that some/many of the "new" regulations pose.

However,,, the main point I was trying to make was,,,,,,,,, We do not have the supposed "uniform" gun laws that Howard was bleating about.
Uniformity between the states or rather lack of creates major headaches.

I too was taught the "old" way regarding firearms which, back then was good.
But nowadays, there is far more ingredients in the mix.
ie: crime rates have shot upwards, and endeavoring to prevent gun thefts and the risk of (children) who haven't been taught (f/arms) playing with them
can only be a good thing.

[Oldbloke]

I think its good we have storage requirements but as you say they need to me uniform. Issue is that its the states that have to power under the constitution.

Maybe somehow farmers need some sort of exemption. Dont know how that would work though.

They tried to make the (W)OHS laws uniform. Failed. Same reason.

[boingk]

The reason we don't have farmers able to have guns lying around is because statistically most stolen firearms are from just such properties. I guarantee that they are left out and about, too, and that the lock or mechanism on the safe is disabled before Police.

There is piss-poor complacency in many of our owners and its ridiculous that those same people argue for more relaxed storage laws due to their apathy.

More on th laws, I'd say we have a fairly reasonable mix. Some countries don't let you have anything. Some let you have a singuar sporting arm, say a 12g shotgun or 22-cal rifle. Some let you have the world - ala the USA. Even the US is questioning their need for such free ownership of arms, and rightly so.

As for parity between jurisdictions? All for it. Probably not going to happen due to our olitical structure, and likely to involve further restrictions if it does.

Be careful what you wish for.

[Farmerpete]

The reason farmers are targeted for firearms theft is simple every farm has them, how many houses would I have to search through in the city before I found even one.

I also guarantee they're not left out laying around as you put it. I know lots of farmers not one doesn't follow the storage requirements for one simple reason: we run on overdrafts try getting a loan with a conviction

The laws are arguably ridiculous based on the fit and proper test, why restrict the type of guns a fit and proper person can have? What does it do for public safety?

If harsher penalties were imposed for the use of firearms in a crime they'd solve a lot of issues.

If you want to look at other countries try Switzerland where everyone is given training then required by law to own an assault rifle (yes an actual assault rifle) then compare them to America where no training is given

[womble]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LrxjYfl05ek&t=44s

Meanwhile in our schools “what gender am i ??

[snag]

There are volumes of conspiracy theories about the PAM, but there are two questions that still niggle me -
1. Why no Coroners inquest? I know that the government stated that they didn't want to subject the families of the victims to "undue stress", but that never stopped them before or since. How many inquests into the Lindt Café event? Or the Whiskey au GoGo mass murder? Doesn't pass the pub test.
2. The weapon involved was allegedly handed in to the police prior to the event (SA I think the reports read). So how did Bryant get it? That should have been an enquiry on it's own.
It's the unanswered questions that will always keep us all wondering.

[Baronvonrort]

There are volumes of conspiracy theories about the PAM, but there are two questions that still niggle me -
1. Why no Coroners inquest? I know that the government stated that they didn't want to subject the families of the victims to "undue stress", but that never stopped them before or since. How many inquests into the Lindt Café event? Or the Whiskey au GoGo mass murder? Doesn't pass the pub test.
2. The weapon involved was allegedly handed in to the police prior to the event (SA I think the reports read). So how did Bryant get it? That should have been an enquiry on it's own.
It's the unanswered questions that will always keep us all wondering.

There are a lot of things that are not right which doesn't mean a conspiracy it's just many questionable things happened.

Bryant had no control of his inheritance because of mental illness. He should have been found not guilty due to mental illness he would still be locked up for life yet nobody seems concerned about proper legal processes being followed.

The gun was handed in to Vic police during an amnesty they tried to frame gun dealer Terry Hill for supplying it yet couldn't pin it on him. Todays paper made a claim he supplied this gun yet there was no evidence he did which is just another example of fake news.

[Baronvonrort]

If harsher penalties were imposed for the use of firearms in a crime they'd solve a lot of issues.

The Shooters Fishers and Farmers party introduced a bill that would make people serve time for firearm offences after they had served time for criminal offence resulting in longer jail time for criminals with guns. Labor Liberal and the greens opposed it.

[Ziege]

YEP Entire government response to the event is completely uncouth.

[Oldbloke]

The Shooters Fishers and Farmers party introduced a bill that would make people serve time for firearm offences after they had served time for criminal offence resulting in longer jail time for criminals with guns. Labor Liberal and the greens opposed it.

Never vote for any of them myself.
But that says something. So what is their policy position relating to gun related crime?

[womble]

Mandatory sentencing for gun crime.
All of their firearms policies are sensible and balanced.

[Oldbloke]

Mandatory sentencing for gun crime.
All of their firearms policies are sensible and balanced.

Yeah, that's SFFP. Great. What about the other bastards?

[womble]

Currently it’s one specific bastard, our favourite smiling 2 faced c*nt
https://apnews.com/article/ee81cb8466a44e84b91bd532dbd05095

[Ziege]

yep there is the not so right wing allegedly conservative party (they simply aren't) at play yet again.

[womble]

In simplest terms Aussie politics since forever is the conservatives aligning with the liberals to combat the labor party.
When the coalition is on a particularly conservative bender, like Howard and Scummo now,
We are so f*cked.
We are a minority group. We will be assimilated. We can be cured etc.
For now anyway. Next comes suppressed, abolished, prohibited etc

[Oldbloke]

Currently it’s one specific bastard, our favourite smiling 2 faced c*nt
https://apnews.com/article/ee81cb8466a44e84b91bd532dbd05095

All 3 majors are much the same.

[womble]

yep there is the not so right wing allegedly conservative party (they simply aren't) at play yet again.

Seriously.
How does it get any more conservative than putting your opposition ahead of one nation to protect gun control.
Self sacrifice to uphold convention.

[Oldbloke]

yep there is the not so right wing allegedly conservative party (they simply aren't) at play yet again.

Seriously.
How does it get any more conservative than putting your opposition ahead of one nation to protect gun control.
Self sacrifice to uphold convention.

LNP are as bad as Gun Control Australia. Here, read the LNP gun policy. Written by Little John Howard.
https://www.guncontrolaustralia.org/

I reckon GCA is a LNP franchise. Or is it t he other way around?

[womble]

Kinda correct.
Their chairman was peter costello’s brother.
They’re not politically affiliated officially. That’s intentional. Basically they’re the anti - ssaa