New Yank/AU submarines coming sooner or later

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Re: New Yank/AU submarines coming sooner or later

Post by cz515 » 23 Sep 2021, 7:01 am

I can plaster links here about cost over runs and problems with function of defence contracts to fill the page. But maybe go do that in your own time

But I will say this, if it's mainly the deterioration of military environment why don't we just go order some off the shelf yank nuclear subs, instead of building them here.

Think about it...Scotty from marketing to the rescue
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Re: New Yank/AU submarines coming sooner or later

Post by cleger » 23 Sep 2021, 8:03 am

cz515 wrote:That's keeting comments. Go read what he said in full ya lazy. Pity if only some of the brains had been transferred down you won't have needed to ask the question. But maybe I need to explain so to appease the sheeple and spoon feed them.

the arrangement results in a loss of Australian sovereignty and commits Australia to further involvement with Americans. but the question is do we stand independent or be slaves to US (or for that matter China). I rather we stand independent and neutral.


So the choice is between independence and becoming "slaves to the US?"

The Canadian Armed Forces are more tightly integrated with the US DoD than may ever be practical for the Australian DoD. Go and ask a Canadian if he is a slave. The RCAF fies F18s, just as does the RAAF. Both are somehow still free to choose to buy Swedish or French planes. Go figure.

cz515 wrote:There is huge doubt about Australia’s ability to cope with advanced submarine technology. We have had difficulty in running a bunch of Australian built conventional submarines – imagine the difficulty in moving to sophisticated nuclear submarines, their maintenance, and operational complexity.


Doubt? Among whom? You doubt that Australians can "cope" with technology mastered by Americans, Canadians, and the British over 50 years ago? Do you understand how a reactor works? If not, don't worry; there are plenty of Aussies who do.

cz515 wrote:Historically most of our defence contracts have always been failures or compromises and run way over budget. It generally costs USD3+ billion dollars in the states to build a nuclear submarine with industry already in place (a conventional submarine
lot less) These new subs with their 40% Australian content will mean we will need to setup some of those industries here


Tragic.

cz515 wrote: and unlike a chook raffle it's extremely complex stuff (or everyone be building nuclear subs). But we are still dependant on US for fixing all of the complex systems. So we be driving a bus and America will be the manufacturer and the mechanic. At terms set by the whim of any future president of America.


You will be dependent on us for submarines and infrastructure you build yourselves? Is the USN dependent on Australia for the warships it buys from Austal? Have we become your "slaves?"

cz515 wrote:But let's go back a step


Let's.

cz515 wrote: we were getting 12 s**ty subs from France for 90 billion. How much do you think these nuclear subs will cost each? The devil is in the detail boys... and you will never know. But lets guess if a diesel sub was going to cost 8 billion dollars (there is a lot of fat there seeing USA builds a nuclear one for 5billion aud) you can bet the nuclear one would end up double that before cost over runs so likely 20+ billion to build one of them. And what could you get for all these billions of dollars worth of black shiny rocks?


I bet the French would still take you back, if you think $90B of "s**ty subs" is what is best for Australia.

cz515 wrote:And finally the other argument, where with a defence force of 50,000 people and I repeat with no nuclear missile capabilities how do you even expect to stop an invasion long enough for the yanks to get here.


Does Isreal have nuclear weapons? Probably not, I guess.

cz515 wrote:The reality is no country wants a war now a days. The biggest warmongering countries at the moment are Israel, China and India. While they might have skirmishes with their neighbours but there hasn't been an actual war for 40+ years. India does not even have a toilet for 70% of their population but yet they spend billions every year on military, the question is do we want to be like that?

Do we want to waste hundreds of billions for 40 years preparing for a war that will not happen. As China is more interested in $$$ than outright war. Or it would have already taken over Taiwan. And tiawan have an army 6 times larger than ours and a fraction of the area to defend.


China has not taken over Taiwan in the past, because they had a sense of the consequences, but the American government has not exactly ramped up their rhetoric around this question of late. Do you think the Chinese will never try? Do you think Taiwan's 6X army will help them then?

Do you think any of Israel's neighbors (e.g. Iran) with "an army 6 times larger" are contemplating an invasion of Israel?

cz515 wrote:And finally I rather this money be spent in Australia on Australians, including heath, education etc. our universities deserve more money so they don't have to rely on foreign students. Our old shouldn't be waiting for 3 to 5 years in pain to get a hip replacement. Our diggers shouldn't have to live a life of poverty and pain after retirement, Our RSL clubs shouldn't need to run pokies to fund activities. I could go on, hopefully some of you get the point

So did I have an answer. Yes I did. Will you be willing to open your sheeple minds and digest the info.... I doubt some would


I get that you prefer hospitals and schools to weapons, but all of the arguments you have made are specious. Australia already spends tens of billions each year on defence.

You have many available choices, but if I were to attempt to reduce them, as you have, I'd say they are

    * Stop acquiring weapons and build more hospitals. Then you can rely on the UK/US/CA for your defence, and see where that leads you.
    * Keep your Collins subs going for another 50 years, for the good that would do you in a future crisis.
    * Buy new diesel subs from the French or Swedes or whomever (we don't make them anymore.)
    * Acquire new, terrible, and convincing means to defend yourselves in your own right, with the attendant costs and benefits.

Australia is at the end of the world, and you are right that in the event of a major threat, time will be short. As it is today, no foreign foe dare set foot in that Commonwealth of yours; the trick is keeping it that way. Your view that "no country wants war now a days" is facile. Even childish. Keep an eye on Taiwan.

In the end, the Australian people will choose the path most beneficial to them, and consistent with their character.
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Re: New Yank/AU submarines coming sooner or later

Post by cleger » 23 Sep 2021, 8:08 am

cz515 wrote:I can plaster links here about cost over runs and problems with function of defence contracts to fill the page. But maybe go do that in your own time

But I will say this, if it's mainly the deterioration of military environment why don't we just go order some off the shelf yank nuclear subs, instead of building them here.

Think about it...Scotty from marketing to the rescue


How is buying American subs better than building them yourselves?
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Re: New Yank/AU submarines coming sooner or later

Post by ThePlinkster » 23 Sep 2021, 8:44 am

cleger wrote:Your view that "no country wants war now a days" is facile. Even childish. Keep an eye on Taiwan.

In the end, the Australian people will choose the path most beneficial to them, and consistent with their character.

Spot on
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Re: New Yank/AU submarines coming sooner or later

Post by straightshooter » 23 Sep 2021, 8:58 am

cz515
I object to the accuracy of your description of we becoming US slaves.
You must understand that a slave, being possessed livestock, must be fed, housed and looked after for the general wellbeing and maintenance of the value of the asset.
On the other hand even the most servile faithful lackey may be employed or discarded at whim without consequence.
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Re: New Yank/AU submarines coming sooner or later

Post by cz515 » 23 Sep 2021, 9:01 am

Not sure what you want to argue about, BUT the facts are (edit, replying to cleager)

Australia has a bad history of cost overrun and delays in defence projects, esp with the vote pulling media string about building bespoke things. Look at Taliban they defeated America with a Toyota 4wd and a couple of ak47s costing 20k while how much does the rheinmetal land400 cost? And both can easily be defeated by a drone or rocket/missle strike....

There is a clear potential for a collapse in Australia’s submarine capability. We had already gone through that when transitioning from the Oberon to the Collins, and spent the next 15 years recovering. If the new subs are ready by 2040 (which is still optimistic considering the French subs we already wasted 6 years without even getting to build anything) the Collins will be 47 years old, and well past the 10 year life extension they have been given.

And yes if we have a threat it's in the next 5/10 years these subs will not be ready... hence the comment that maybe we just buy off the shelf existing subs, rather than building them here. So we spending $20 billion on a sub, that will not be ready for 20 years, even though the need is now, or we buy/ lease a us sub for $5b which we could get the first off in say in a couple of years.
Last edited by cz515 on 23 Sep 2021, 9:09 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: New Yank/AU submarines coming sooner or later

Post by cz515 » 23 Sep 2021, 9:08 am

straightshooter wrote:cz515
I object to the accuracy of your description of we becoming US slaves.
You must understand that a slave, being possessed livestock, must be fed, housed and looked after for the general wellbeing and maintenance of the value of the asset.
On the other hand even the most servile faithful lackey may be employed or discarded at whim without consequence.


It's not my words mate, Paul Keating said it. You argue the intricacies with him. I just quoted what he said directly.

And cleager, I have rubbished the idea of getting a diesel electric sub a few months ago on this forum.

The only one benefiting from war are the defence manufacturers, earning hundreds of billions of dollars from the misery of others.

Ok sure we want to have manufacturing capability, let's build solar panels, lithium Harris, let's put a chip waver lab. Let's invest in medical technology, like making our own mrna vaccine. Building agricultural equipment. There are hundreds of industries that don't get funding. I was looking into a small fledgling company in Melbourne who are trying to make a heart engine, which is simple, cheaper and more efficient than others. An innovative company like that deserves funding. Not multinational defence organisations which take the bulk of the profit overseas
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Re: New Yank/AU submarines coming sooner or later

Post by straightshooter » 23 Sep 2021, 9:29 am

cz515 wrote:It's not my words mate, Paul Keating said it....

And by repeating in the way you have you have taken possession of it.
My only intent was to clarify the word's usage by focusing attention on the liabilities and benefits of being a slave.
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Re: New Yank/AU submarines coming sooner or later

Post by cleger » 23 Sep 2021, 9:37 am

cz515 wrote:Not sure what you want to argue about, BUT the facts are (edit, replying to cleager)

Australia has a bad history of cost overrun and delays in defence projects, esp with the vote pulling media string about building bespoke things. Look at Taliban they defeated America with a Toyota 4wd and a couple of ak47s costing 20k while how much does the rheinmetal land400 cost? And both can easily be defeated by a drone or rocket/missle strike....

There is a clear potential for a collapse in Australia’s submarine capability. We had already gone through that when transitioning from the Oberon to the Collins, and spent the next 15 years recovering. If the new subs are ready by 2040 (which is still optimistic considering the French subs we already wasted 6 years without even getting to build anything) the Collins will be 47 years old, and well past the 10 year life extension they have been given.

And yes if we have a threat it's in the next 5/10 years these subs will not be ready... hence the comment that maybe we just buy off the shelf existing subs, rather than building them here. So we spending $20 billion on a sub, that will not be ready for 20 years, even though the need is now, or we buy/ lease a us sub for $5b which we could get the first off in say in a couple of years.


Now you sound as if you're in a rush. Where can you buy off-the-shelf submarines?

You *might* be able to make a deal to lease an American sub, but the existing ones are already allocated. Congress generally does not let the navy order spares.

What kind of subs do you want? You can have:

Collins
French/Swede/Chinese/Argentine/etc oil-fired steamsubs
Pure US/UK purpose-built Astute/Virginia subs (maybe)
AU/US/UK jointly-developed and Oz-built subs
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Re: New Yank/AU submarines coming sooner or later

Post by cleger » 23 Sep 2021, 9:45 am

cz515 wrote:[
Ok sure we want to have manufacturing capability, let's build solar panels, lithium Harris, let's put a chip waver lab. Let's invest in medical technology, like making our own mrna vaccine. Building agricultural equipment. There are hundreds of industries that don't get funding. I was looking into a small fledgling company in Melbourne who are trying to make a heart engine, which is simple, cheaper and more efficient than others. An innovative company like that deserves funding. Not multinational defence organisations which take the bulk of the profit overseas


The problem you have is that the RAN and the defence establishment do not take your broad view that encompasses tractors, chips, and medicine.

They are focussed on addressing a current, emerging, and foreseeable set of challenges. None of it has to do with heart pumps.

Petition your government to spend more on medical research if you like. Meanwhile, what do you propose to do about the Chinese?

It's OK to say you wish to ignore them.
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Re: New Yank/AU submarines coming sooner or later

Post by cz515 » 23 Sep 2021, 10:27 am

How much is NZ spending on defence, why don't they spend more on defence. I mean why won't China take over NZ, they only got a few sheep and 15,000 people.

Cuz China doesn't need to make war with NZ. Actually they aren't interested in NZ.

The only reason they have even taken notice of Australia is after we attacked their interests first. If we stay neutral there is nothing of benefit for them in a war with Australia
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Re: New Yank/AU submarines coming sooner or later

Post by cleger » 23 Sep 2021, 10:46 am

cz515 wrote:How much is NZ spending on defence, why don't they spend more on defence. I mean why won't China take over NZ, they only got a few sheep and 15,000 people.

Cuz China doesn't need to make war with NZ. Actually they aren't interested in NZ.

The only reason they have even taken notice of Australia is after we attacked their interests first. If we stay neutral there is nothing of benefit for them in a war with Australia


Why should China take over a bunch of reefs? They haven't even got a single sheep on them.

Why should China build new aircraft carriers, and hundreds of new capital ships? Do you think they plan to sail them all they way to California? (They don't.)

If we follow your plan, what do you think will eventually happen to the cost of container shipping in your region? Maybe, under the cz515 plan, they'll let you ship tractor parts and heart pumps to Port Moresby on your own skiffs.
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Re: New Yank/AU submarines coming sooner or later

Post by cz515 » 23 Sep 2021, 10:59 am

cleger wrote:
cz515 wrote:How much is NZ spending on defence, why don't they spend more on defence. I mean why won't China take over NZ, they only got a few sheep and 15,000 people.

Cuz China doesn't need to make war with NZ. Actually they aren't interested in NZ.

The only reason they have even taken notice of Australia is after we attacked their interests first. If we stay neutral there is nothing of benefit for them in a war with Australia


Why should China take over a bunch of reefs? They haven't even got a single sheep on them.
yes my point, re Australia

Why should China build new aircraft carriers, and hundreds of new capital ships? Do you think they plan to sail them all they way to California? (They don't.)
you tell me, how many boats do Germany or France posessand how many wars they participated in... America is the only country on a mission to world sheriff... until maybe now

If we follow your plan, what do you think will eventually happen to the cost of container shipping in your region? Maybe, under the cz515 plan, they'll let you ship tractor parts and heart pumps to Port Moresby on your own skiffs.
what had container ship gotta do, you are confusing yourself...or just trying to argue for the sake of arguing


You want war, let America do its war. They got enough people and make enough money to make it worth their time.
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Re: New Yank/AU submarines coming sooner or later

Post by cleger » 23 Sep 2021, 11:17 am

cz515 wrote:
cleger wrote:
cz515 wrote:How much is NZ spending on defence, why don't they spend more on defence. I mean why won't China take over NZ, they only got a few sheep and 15,000 people.

Cuz China doesn't need to make war with NZ. Actually they aren't interested in NZ.

The only reason they have even taken notice of Australia is after we attacked their interests first. If we stay neutral there is nothing of benefit for them in a war with Australia


Why should China take over a bunch of reefs? They haven't even got a single sheep on them.
yes my point, re Australia

Why should China build new aircraft carriers, and hundreds of new capital ships? Do you think they plan to sail them all they way to California? (They don't.)
you tell me, how many boats do Germany or France posessand how many wars they participated in... America is the only country on a mission to world sheriff... until maybe now

If we follow your plan, what do you think will eventually happen to the cost of container shipping in your region? Maybe, under the cz515 plan, they'll let you ship tractor parts and heart pumps to Port Moresby on your own skiffs.
what had container ship gotta do, you are confusing yourself...or just trying to argue for the sake of arguing


You want war, let America do its war. They got enough people and make enough money to make it worth their time.


Are you kidding? Go read about the Marine Nationale. They have scores of ships, aircraft carriers, subs, and nuclear weapons.

You mentioned the cost of container shipping earlier. If and when no one can compete commercially in the south Pacific, I don't expect the cost to drop. That's not how monopolies work.

America is not on a mission to be "world sherriff." America has tried to keep the lanes (and markets) open, being in a position to do so, but the future is unclear.

You may trust in good will and warm feelings, and maybe doing so will lead to vaccines and computer chips
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Re: New Yank/AU submarines coming sooner or later

Post by bigrich » 23 Sep 2021, 12:28 pm

Thanks for responding to cz515 Cleger. I agree with you and your points of argument.

I’m not into trolling or slandering people, but cz515/ziad , your a freaking goose mate. You have a idealistic view of of the world, with a view to neutrality. That’s not going to work. Ask Tibet and the Dali Lahma how being peaceable against the communist regime worked out. Your so full of negativity and defeatism just go hide in a hole mate

Evil men triumph when good men fail to act !
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Re: New Yank/AU submarines coming sooner or later

Post by cz515 » 23 Sep 2021, 1:11 pm

ThePlinkster wrote:
bigrich wrote: Evil men triumph when good men fail to act !

I don't think Ziad will understand that great quote Bigrich ^
His vision on this particular subject is too weak/too submissive


Mate you continue to personally attack me. And what's even more hilarious is that you have gotten my name wrong on multiple times.

The fact is none of the people on this forum living in Australia have actually experienced war and I am not taking about war where you send 2000 people on the other side of the world. I have experienced first hand the negative aspects of an arms race between nations.

And seeing people are calling into experience, my father actually fought in a war as an infantry officer, and his father fought with the British again as an infantry officer. Further an uncle experienced life as a POW, abs I saw the effect experience had on him. So I have full respect to military and the job they do.

So Plinkster making d1ckhead comments is not on. Esp when they come from a weasel who would sh1t his pants and cry momma if someone pointed a real pistol at him in earnest view to kill.
Last edited by cz515 on 23 Sep 2021, 1:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New Yank/AU submarines coming sooner or later

Post by ThePlinkster » 23 Sep 2021, 1:22 pm

cz515 wrote:
ThePlinkster wrote:
bigrich wrote: Evil men triumph when good men fail to act !

I don't think Ziad will understand that great quote Bigrich ^
His vision on this particular subject is too weak/too submissive


Mate you continue to personally attack me. And what's even more hillsides hilarious is that you have gotten my name wrong.

The fact is none of the people on this forum living in Australia have actually experienced war and I am not taking about war where you send 2000 people on the other side of the world. I have experienced first hand the negative aspects of an arms race between nations. And my father was actually fought in a war as an infantry officer, and his father fought with the British again as an infantry officer. So I have full respect to military and the job they do.

So Plibkster making d1ckhead comments is not on. Esp when they come from a weasel who would sh1t his pants and cry momma if someone pointed a real pistol at him in earnest view to kill.

#1
You're silly
I didn't personally attack you
I attacked your vision on how to deal with China
I find your vision on how to deal with China weak and submissive and ineffective
(Everyone here thinks so)

#2
I come from a military family.
I know full well what an immense honour it is to fight for a right cause.
I know full well what an incredible honour it is to fight defending freedom, human rights and democracy.

#3
I meant what I said man
"Evil men triumph when good men fail to act!"
I honestly do not think that you would understand that quote because you're so stubborn in your ways
You never acknowledge when you're wrong. Everyone here is telling you that you're wrong yet you keep persisting anyway

#4
I'm not a weasel
I would not "sh1t my pants if someone pointed a real pistol at me" what makes you think that I would?

For your information
I tried to join the Australian Army
But I could not
(Due to a medical condition)
But believe me, I would If I could
Again, I come from a military family

That's what I mean man
You're so silly
You are very rude, very offensive, you never have any idea of what you're talking about, everyone is telling you that you are wrong yet you keep yapping anyway

Disappointing.
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Re: New Yank/AU submarines coming sooner or later

Post by bigrich » 23 Sep 2021, 3:10 pm

i seriously wish i had the abilities of "auntie jack" sometimes . so when people annoy me i could jump through their PC monitor screen "and rip ya bloody arms off ! , and i will too ....." :lol: :lol: :lol:

ya can lead a human to knowledge but ya can't make it think :P

:drinks: :drinks: :thumbsup:
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Re: New Yank/AU submarines coming sooner or later

Post by Bugman » 23 Sep 2021, 5:28 pm

Auntie Jack...........now there was a true Aussie ABC character. Not pc these days, though...................sigh.
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Re: New Yank/AU submarines coming sooner or later

Post by bigrich » 23 Sep 2021, 6:04 pm

Bugman wrote:Auntie Jack...........now there was a true Aussie ABC character. Not pc these days, though...................sigh.


PC :wtf: flamin' heck , that's a 'puter in'it :huh: dunno what people are on about with this PC cr@p
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Re: New Yank/AU submarines coming sooner or later

Post by Oldbloke » 23 Sep 2021, 6:46 pm

Honestly, why would you buy a Holden Monaro and rip the V8 out and drop in a 4 cyl 1100 side valve out of a Morris Minor?

Project was doomed before the contract was signed.
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Re: New Yank/AU submarines coming sooner or later

Post by on_one_wheel » 23 Sep 2021, 7:05 pm

cz515 wrote:
You want war, let America do its war. They got enough people and make enough money to make it worth their time.


America doesn't make money, it incurs tremendous debt at an eye watering rate.
But that's another story that I'm sure you could educate all on.
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Re: New Yank/AU submarines coming sooner or later

Post by bigrich » 23 Sep 2021, 7:07 pm

Oldbloke wrote:Honestly, why would you buy a Holden Monaro and rip the V8 out and drop in a 4 cyl 1100 side valve out of a Morris Minor?

Project was doomed before the contract was signed.


deisel electric subs have bin around since before WW1 . good on sco-mo going for it . maybe the yanks and brits are keen on us to have the latest subs to counter china , then they don't have the running costs of being so far from home . better for their crews too . i reckon we got a better deal than their saying publicly . we'll get some existing subs sooner rather than later i reckon :thumbsup:
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Re: New Yank/AU submarines coming sooner or later

Post by Blackened » 23 Sep 2021, 7:14 pm

Topic resulting in too many ongoing arguments.

Locked.
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