Insurance

[Die Judicii]

Just wondering who does specific insurance on their firearms, accessories, ammo etc

As opposed to just hoping/relying on the "home & contents general insurance" to cover things ?

[mchughcb]

I had home and contents with specific items including some high end stuff. I then dropped that and took up the SSAA insurance as the price was cheaper for individual firearms. Normal home and contents is about $2500 per item which wouldn't cover a single scope on my stuff.

[pomemax]

35$ for SSAA wish I could double its value would gladly pay 70 FOR 50k

[Die Judicii]

35$ for SSAA wish I could double its value would gladly pay 70 FOR 50k

Ditto,, I looked into that myself.

[pomemax]

I Just had a thought I wonder if I can get MY mrs to take out SSAA Insurance on her membership I think I will need to ring them up

[Die Judicii]

I Just had a thought I wonder if I can get MY mrs to take out SSAA Insurance on her membership I think I will need to ring them up

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm,,,,,,,
So your thinking have 1/2 insured in your name and the other half insured in your wife's name ?

Keep us posted.

[cz515]

The only issue I think might be that I assume all the guns are on your name.

You can ask to speak to the brokers section and see if they can give you a increased policy for all your firearm collection. Saying that I would do that if you planning the wife idea.

As my basic rule in life is be 110% honest with insurance companies as they love take your premium and deny your claim esp if you make a deliberate "mistake"

[Die Judicii]

The only issue I think might be that I assume all the guns are on your name.

You can ask to speak to the brokers section and see if they can give you a small policy for all your firearm collection. Saying that I would do that if you planning the wife idea.

As my basic rule in life is be 110% honest with insurance companies as they love take your premium and deny your claim esp if you make a deliberate "mistake"

Should be nothing illegal or dis honest.
Regardless of whose name they be registered in.
eg,,,

a) you have $60,000 of firearms in total.
b) you take out a policy $30,000 which would cover half.
c) your wife takes out another separate policy of $30,000 which would cover the other half.
d) two separate policies,,, two separate premiums paid.
e) ssaa offer up to $35,000 cover per policy
f) more than enough coverage.
g) No lies,,,,, No deceit,,, everything above board
h) In the unfortunate event of a fire destroying your house and contents,,,, you should be covered for the firearms in total.

No double dipping, or bullsh!t
Just because they might all be registered in the husbands name shouldn't make any difference.
It's not an individually named and serial numbered policy.

[cz515]

Edited my post.


DJ. When dealing with insurance they do not believe in what you think "should" happen. It's what the policy wording says as per a legal standpoint. Hence I said call ssaa up and ask them. Worse case pay a few hundred more and get everything covered.

[bladeracer]

I'm not convinced this would work.
I don't believe you can insure the same object on two separate policies.
For example, I don't think you can take out three $5000 policies on the same $5000 firearm. Or, more precisely, if you did you would still only get one payout on it, so two policies would have zero value. I guess you could do this listing three different owners, so you could decide at the time which policy to lodge so the payout goes to a specific person, but it seems too convoluted to be practical.

Insuring half of the property on two separate policies is fine, provided you specify exactly which half applies to which policy.

Undervaluing your property though doesn't work either. Taking out a $30,000 policy on a $60,000 collection will only pay you out half the value of whatever was lost. You can't wait until you have a fire and then declare that the half that went up in smoke was the half that was insured. If you want the insurance company to take the risk on your property being lost, they want to know exactly what it is they are insuring.

If you want to ensure zero problems with a claim, make all efforts to ensure the insurer knows _exactly_ what you are insuring _and_ what it is worth.

The only issue I think might be that I assume all the guns are on your name.

You can ask to speak to the brokers section and see if they can give you a small policy for all your firearm collection. Saying that I would do that if you planning the wife idea.

As my basic rule in life is be 110% honest with insurance companies as they love take your premium and deny your claim esp if you make a deliberate "mistake"

Should be nothing illegal or dis honest.
Regardless of whose name they be registered in.
eg,,,

a) you have $60,000 of firearms in total.
b) you take out a policy $30,000 which would cover half.
c) your wife takes out another separate policy of $30,000 which would cover the other half.
d) two separate policies,,, two separate premiums paid.
e) ssaa offer up to $35,000 cover per policy
f) more than enough coverage.
g) No lies,,,,, No deceit,,, everything above board
h) In the unfortunate event of a fire destroying your house and contents,,,, you should be covered for the firearms in total.

No double dipping, or bullsh!t
Just because they might all be registered in the husbands name shouldn't make any difference.
It's not an individually named and serial numbered policy.

[bladeracer]

Just wondering who does specific insurance on their firearms, accessories, ammo etc

As opposed to just hoping/relying on the "home & contents general insurance" to cover things ?

I keep meaning to list my specific firearms, ammo, and equipment with my insurer, but it is constantly changing, and I'm hesitant to put such a shopping list out there, even to SSAA.

I long passed the point that our contents insurance would cover any of it though, our entire Contents policy wouldn't cover half of my firearms, or even my ammo, so I have been putting together a "stock take" itemised list for our insurer.

I do have the SSAA insurance but I view that more as an "accident" policy than a replacement policy.

The real impetus for listing it all though is simply to make life a whole simpler for Rose if I kick the Bucket.

[Die Judicii]

I'm not convinced this would work.
I don't believe you can insure the same object on two separate policies.
For example, I don't think you can take out three $5000 policies on the same $5000 firearm. Or, more precisely, if you did you would still only get one payout on it, so two policies would have zero value. I guess you could do this listing three different owners, so you could decide at the time which policy to lodge so the payout goes to a specific person, but it seems too convoluted to be practical.

Insuring half of the property on two separate policies is fine, provided you specify exactly which half applies to which policy.

Undervaluing your property though doesn't work either. Taking out a $30,000 policy on a $60,000 collection will only pay you out half the value of whatever was lost. You can't wait until you have a fire and then declare that the half that went up in smoke was the half that was insured. If you want the insurance company to take the risk on your property being lost, they want to know exactly what it is they are insuring.

If you want to ensure zero problems with a claim, make all efforts to ensure the insurer knows _exactly_ what you are insuring _and_ what it is worth.

In a nutshell that is the exact point I was getting at.
Nothing illegal or underhanded.

As I understand it, SSAA don't ask for serial numbers etc,,,,,, but I would happily provide such if asked/needed
And,,,,, this is/was a hypothetical question anyway,,,,, near the beginning of this thread.

[bladeracer]

I don't think it'd be illegal, as long as you specify whose insurance policy covers exactly which firearms.

It's a useful thread I think as I do find the SSAA insurance confusing
I'll have to discuss it with them as well I guess. Our insurance agent is a very long-time friend of the family, which is why we use him, but it's good to also support SSAA, so I'm not against splitting my shooting off to another insurer.

I'm not convinced this would work.
I don't believe you can insure the same object on two separate policies.
For example, I don't think you can take out three $5000 policies on the same $5000 firearm. Or, more precisely, if you did you would still only get one payout on it, so two policies would have zero value. I guess you could do this listing three different owners, so you could decide at the time which policy to lodge so the payout goes to a specific person, but it seems too convoluted to be practical.

Insuring half of the property on two separate policies is fine, provided you specify exactly which half applies to which policy.

Undervaluing your property though doesn't work either. Taking out a $30,000 policy on a $60,000 collection will only pay you out half the value of whatever was lost. You can't wait until you have a fire and then declare that the half that went up in smoke was the half that was insured. If you want the insurance company to take the risk on your property being lost, they want to know exactly what it is they are insuring.

If you want to ensure zero problems with a claim, make all efforts to ensure the insurer knows _exactly_ what you are insuring _and_ what it is worth.

In a nutshell that is the exact point I was getting at.
Nothing illegal or underhanded.

As I understand it, SSAA don't ask for serial numbers etc,,,,,, but I would happily provide such if asked/needed
And,,,,, this is/was a hypothetical question anyway,,,,, near the beginning of this thread.

[animalpest]

Your not going to get away with having two separate insurance policies for the same item. Only 1 will pay out.

Just think of someone with 6 insurance policies on their house/car/boat. Boat sinks and you get a tidy sum, don't think so

[Die Judicii]

Your not going to get away with having two separate insurance policies for the same item. Only 1 will pay out.

Just think of someone with 6 insurance policies on their house/car/boat. Boat sinks and you get a tidy sum, don't think so

Look at it this way,,,,,,,
If you owned 2 boats,,,,,,,, one that you bought 6 years ago, plus another that you only recently bought. (similar to your firearms)
You could legitimately insure the first one with your insurance company,,,,, and at a later stage you could also legitimately then take out a separate policy on the latest one purchased.
Or,,,,,
Take out one policy on the first boat with your insurance company,,, and then insure the second boat with a different insurance company.

Two totally different items each one separately insured.

The absolute most an owner could possibly claim would be the both policies on both boats,,,,,, but ONLY if both were sunk or whatever.

Again,,,,,,,,,,,,, No Double Dipping,,,, Nothing Illegal,,,,,,, All Aboveboard.

[cz515]

Ffs has anyone actually bothered reading the policy wording. Had anyone call ssaa as I said. NO

so i googled, and got the policy document. The policy covers firearms owned by you, so if your wife does not own those firearms they are not covered.

Screenshot_20211102-223748_Drive.jpg (351.45 KiB) Viewed 3755 times

[Die Judicii]

CZ515
Don't get yer knickers in a knot Mate,,,,
It was a hypothetical question and was just throwing up hypothetical scenarios that would /could therefore be known as,,,,,,,,,
I'm sure you've heard the terminology,,,,,, a "loophole"

[bladeracer]

Ffs has anyone actually bothered reading the policy wording. Had anyone call ssaa as I said. NO

so i googled, and got the policy document. The policy covers firearms owned by you, so if your wife does not own those firearms they are not covered.

Screenshot_20211102-223748_Drive.jpg

It's you and your wife who decides ownership though, not SSAA.
As long as both policies specify exactly which firearms it covers there is no problem taking out two policies, unless the policy document specifically prohibits two policies on the one property or family. That is possible as they really prefer you take out a full policy to cover all your firearms, the base policy is to entice you in. Taking out a single policy on a $50,000 collection is worth more to SSAA than giving out two introductory policies to two members of the same family.

[bladeracer]

I have to call SSAA soon anyway, so I'll try to remember to ask what they charge for a $200,000 policy, and how that compares to the $280 premiums for spreading it out across eight family members - assuming they're going to have SSAA memberships anyway. Otherwise I think it's $863 premium for your membership with insurance, plus seven family member memberships with insurance.

[bladeracer]

I tried a quick Google but couldn't find anything that says registration proves ownership of a firearm. I think it's like vehicle registration that proves who the responsible person is, not who owns the asset?

[bladeracer]

Okay, just got off the phone.
SSAA Firearm Insurance is aimed more at insuring against loss or damage, while being used. They felt that there was a gap in the market where our firearms are generally covered under standard insurances while they're in the home, vehicle, workplace, etc, but not while we had them in the field, at clubs, etc. For that, $25K is generally more than sufficient for most people, particularly for a $35 premium. They have nothing that will cover your ammo, reloading equipment, accessories not actually part of a firearm (spare scopes, stocks, chassis, mags, etc), or other hunting/shooting equipment (range gear, hard cases, ammo crates, brass/bullets/powders, die sets, etc).

For cover against, fire, theft, etc your "stuff" is covered under existing policies, for home contents, farm insurance, etc.

So, if you have a firearm worth more than $25K, or you want to fully cover all your shooting/hunting gear, you really need to itemise and list it on an existing property policy, like your home contents, farm, or business insurance. You may not have to list it, but policies often have clauses to protect the insurer against unusual assets, camera equipment for example might have a clause to only cover up to $2500, that they were not aware of when you took it out. Itemising everything just makes life so much easier if you ever do have to claim.

I'd be curious to hear how collectors have their collections insured now.

[Don_Stevenson]

Hey everyone, I can probably provide a bit of perspective on some of these hypotheticals.

First a disclaimer - this is not personal advice. If you have any specific scenarios in mind about insurance products you should talk to a broker who deal in that area.

Background - I have been working in the insurance industry from the last 11 years, mostly in life insurance claims but I have experience with general insurance as well and most of the principles of disclosure and claim are common to both types of insurance.

In no particular order

1. It is perfectly fine and legal to have more than one policy covering an item, either for differing circumstances (travel vs at home) or because they are captured by two policies like the SSAA policy and a home and contents policy. However, it is also the law that you are unable to make a profit from an insurance claim so you can either only claim under one policy, or in many cases the insurers will want you to claim on both and they split the amount owed between them.

2. You could have two SSAA policies for two members of the same household covering a total of 2 x the $25K. However, as a claim manager if you were the "registered" owner of $49K of flashy gear and your wife was only the registered owner of one $1K rifle and you lost most of your stuff you may have a hard time getting that claim through based on the policy wording that was shared above. A claim team would most likely only pay you $25K for what's "registered" in your name. That line in the policy about registration is very important, even if your wife buys that nice new Sako TRG with her cash, if it's on a PTA with your name the insurer would definitely argue that you are the registered owner.

3. Home and contents policies may cover a lot of your ancillary gear like safes, reloading equipment, ammo (but this would be hard to prove since it likely fluctuates) but there are often sub limits for collections of stuff to limit liability. Example, if you have jewellery the policy might only cover $10k and up to $2k for each individual piece unless you list each item and provide a valuation or receipts. Check with your insurer and if necessary get specific cover.

4. When taking out a policy you used to have a duty to disclose anything that you knew could affect the insurers decision to insure you. This has been replaced with a duty to take reasonable care not to make a misrepresentation and how this works in practice is still a little murky except to say that if you are asked a question by an insurer you should try to answer it as accurately and completely as possible. Failing to share relevant information or making a misrepresentation are common causes of disputes in insurance and they sometimes occur through people not thinking and sometimes from people trying to keep costs down by not mentioning things.

5. If you ever find yourself in disagreement with an insurer be aware that they all have internal and external dispute resolution processes that don't cost the insured person anything. In particular if you don't get a satisfactory response from the internal process you can go to AFCA who tend to be quite consumer focused.

[bladeracer]

Thanks for taking the time to share some insight from the other side of the fence Don.

How do I go about insuring ammo and components though? You are correct that the content fluctuates very regularly, but as some gets used, more is bought to replace it. If I insured the specific box of 147gn ELDM'S I owned when I took out the policy, use those, and replace them with a new box, then have a fire that turns them into a copper-lead medallion, how does an insurance policy deal with that situation?

Hey everyone, I can probably provide a bit of perspective on some of these hypotheticals.

First a disclaimer - this is not personal advice. If you have any specific scenarios in mind about insurance products you should talk to a broker who deal in that area.

Background - I have been working in the insurance industry from the last 11 years, mostly in life insurance claims but I have experience with general insurance as well and most of the principles of disclosure and claim are common to both types of insurance.

In no particular order

1. It is perfectly fine and legal to have more than one policy covering an item, either for differing circumstances (travel vs at home) or because they are captured by two policies like the SSAA policy and a home and contents policy. However, it is also the law that you are unable to make a profit from an insurance claim so you can either only claim under one policy, or in many cases the insurers will want you to claim on both and they split the amount owed between them.

2. You could have two SSAA policies for two members of the same household covering a total of 2 x the $25K. However, as a claim manager if you were the "registered" owner of $49K of flashy gear and your wife was only the registered owner of one $1K rifle and you lost most of your stuff you may have a hard time getting that claim through based on the policy wording that was shared above. A claim team would most likely only pay you $25K for what's "registered" in your name. That line in the policy about registration is very important, even if your wife buys that nice new Sako TRG with her cash, if it's on a PTA with your name the insurer would definitely argue that you are the registered owner.

3. Home and contents policies may cover a lot of your ancillary gear like safes, reloading equipment, ammo (but this would be hard to prove since it likely fluctuates) but there are often sub limits for collections of stuff to limit liability. Example, if you have jewellery the policy might only cover $10k and up to $2k for each individual piece unless you list each item and provide a valuation or receipts. Check with your insurer and if necessary get specific cover.

4. When taking out a policy you used to have a duty to disclose anything that you knew could affect the insurers decision to insure you. This has been replaced with a duty to take reasonable care not to make a misrepresentation and how this works in practice is still a little murky except to say that if you are asked a question by an insurer you should try to answer it as accurately and completely as possible. Failing to share relevant information or making a misrepresentation are common causes of disputes in insurance and they sometimes occur through people not thinking and sometimes from people trying to keep costs down by not mentioning things.

5. If you ever find yourself in disagreement with an insurer be aware that they all have internal and external dispute resolution processes that don't cost the insured person anything. In particular if you don't get a satisfactory response from the internal process you can go to AFCA who tend to be quite consumer focused.

[niteowl]

Has been an interesting read all this. We have thought about the subject for some time and have chosen to ignore the problem other than have our firearms and thermal gear stored in fire proof and high "contained value" Chubb safes and in a reasonably fire resistant and alarmed building. This way we have some security from theft and fire. Our problem was not so much in loss etc in the field for the ones in use at the time but storage security.
Nothing for associated extras.
It is embarrassing to quote the value.
Insurance companies do not want to know us with other than normal farm / building and 'normal" contents insurance.

[Don_Stevenson]

It may depend on the insurance policy but I have just had a look at a policy I had on hand and there is no mention of limits on consumables except for replacing food in a refrigerator.

I would think that most insurers would replace a reasonable amount of ammunition or reloading components without requiring specific evidence but if you told them you had 10,000 rounds of something that just happened to go up in a fire they might want to see the receipts.

If you want to be sure you should get specific cover and make sure the amount of ammo you normally keep on hand is listed and check that there is no dollar limit on that category.

[Die Judicii]

Has been an interesting read all this. We have thought about the subject for some time and have chosen to ignore the problem other than have our firearms and thermal gear stored in fire proof and high "contained value" Chubb safes and in a reasonably fire resistant and alarmed building. This way we have some security from theft and fire. Our problem was not so much in loss etc in the field for the ones in use at the time but storage security.
Nothing for associated extras.
It is embarrassing to quote the value.
Insurance companies do not want to know us with other than normal farm / building and 'normal" contents insurance.

Firstly,,,,,,,, Thanks to Don for his input.
As BR said,,,, it's really good to get some impartial advice/info from the other side of the fence.

Niteowl : I hear what yer sayin,,,,, especially re Insurance companies not wanting to know you with other than "normal" contents.

I had a mate once that used to restore vehicles as his hobby and his workshop got burgled with nearly 100% of his hand tools
disappearing in the robbers car/ute/truck.

The insurance company point blank refused to cover the tools and used that very cliche in their defense.
Saying it was "more tools than what would be owned by a "normal" person.
Needless to say that even though he'd been with the same company continuously for 35 years,,,,, he dropped em like a hot potatoe.

[cz515]

Thanks Don very informative post.

[bladeracer]

It may depend on the insurance policy but I have just had a look at a policy I had on hand and there is no mention of limits on consumables except for replacing food in a refrigerator.

I would think that most insurers would replace a reasonable amount of ammunition or reloading components without requiring specific evidence but if you told them you had 10,000 rounds of something that just happened to go up in a fire they might want to see the receipts.

If you want to be sure you should get specific cover and make sure the amount of ammo you normally keep on hand is listed and check that there is no dollar limit on that category.

Thanks, Don
I do keep more than most people might consider reasonable, and I came to the same conclusion, keep meticulous records of what I accrue, and what I use, and give my insurer numbers that are as accurate as I can make them for consumable items. I collected 15,000rds last weekend and already burned through over 1000 of that. My firearms and ammo are worth double what I paid for my house in 1994.

Our insurer is coming out in a few weeks to have a wander around the farm to ensure our cover is up to date.

[Die Judicii]

Our insurer is coming out in a few weeks to have a wander around the farm to ensure our cover is up to date.

Oh no,,,,,,, I can sense a sharp increase in premiums coming,,,,,

Remember when a simple locked door would keep the baddies out ??
And even more so,,,,,, no such thing as a lock.
If someone comes and can't hear activity,,, they'd call out.
And if no response they'd go away and not even try the door handle.

Sigh,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[bladeracer]

Our insurer is coming out in a few weeks to have a wander around the farm to ensure our cover is up to date.

Oh no,,,,,,, I can sense a sharp increase in premiums coming,,,,,

Remember when a simple locked door would keep the baddies out ??
And even more so,,,,,, no such thing as a lock.
If someone comes and can't hear activity,,, they'd call out.
And if no response they'd go away and not even try the door handle.

Sigh,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

I think you're right JD
I already have alarms and cameras though.

Yep, where I grew up and lived we never locked any doors or vehicles.