Really big guns

[LawrenceA]

Rather talk about stuff bigger than the 45/70 and hand held.

[bigrich]

There you go listening to fairy tales. Most of ww1/2 Australian soldiers were used as Canon fodder infront of the British. In the Afghanistan war, we sent a few hundred people including some SAS... and we have heard stories in media recently what antics they got upto.

And is Indonesia and Malaysia 40km from Darwin?

Have you looked at all the customers of the company who have bought these k9s.....all of them have a land locked border with a country they have fought a war with in the last 50 years. Australia is the only island country.

Fairy tales ? Freaking facts mate . Study your history. And I don’t mean a quick google search. I’m 53 and have read countless books on lots of different history, written from first hand facts and reports. Read “hero’s of hamel “ it gives factual accounts of the AIF on the western front and monash’s brilliance and love for his men . He’s the guy on our $100 note by the way .
I suppose it’s pointless to argue that these mobile artillery is a good thing, the internet experts are far smarter. War now is all about pushing buttons and using drones

Did you watch the Azerbaijan War at all? Do you think they would've gotten a better result by sending in thousands of troops, vehicles and artillery instead of using the drones? Troops and vehicles these days are nothing more than targets to an enemy equipped with modern weapon systems.

according to wikapedia, the drones as well as attacking targets , were also used for spotting . for very effective long range artillery . who'd have thunk it
i appologise in advance for my ignorance regarding this war ,having to reference wiki . it's barely been reported in mainstream media . they were too preoccupied with COVID
my time on this forum is about the most time i spend on the net . i try to get out and do more outside or read more books ,than being on a 'puter

[cz515]

I thought you were leaving this conversation.

Ok answer me this, where do you think this mobile artillery will be used by the ADF. Give us a senario where it will be used bonus points for on Australian mainland

[bladeracer]

Yes, drones also spotted for artillery, but the entire war zone was only the size of Melbourne suburbs

I wouldn't know if it got any mention on MSM as I don't use it, but it was televised virtually 24/7 on online sites. I saw more of it in real-time than we got out of Desert Storm.

[bladeracer]

I thought you were leaving this conversation.

Ok answer me this, where do you think this mobile artillery will be used by the ADF. Give us a senario where it will be used bonus points for on Australian mainland

It will be used for nothing except training for scenarios that are never likely to happen.
I can envisage them finding a use if we ever send our troops to lose somebody else's war again (!), but not in any "defence of the country" role, and that's what we should be investing in. We'll be in a position of having troops very well trained in using artillery, but in a war that doesn't require any artillery, very useful.

[bigrich]

I thought you were leaving this conversation.

Ok answer me this, where do you think this mobile artillery will be used by the ADF. Give us a senario where it will be used bonus points for on Australian mainland

a amphibious invasion indonesia is something that has had our military worried at times . i defer to the people in the military making decisions on this subject are privy to more information than you or i

[bigrich]

I thought you were leaving this conversation.

Ok answer me this, where do you think this mobile artillery will be used by the ADF. Give us a senario where it will be used bonus points for on Australian mainland

It will be used for nothing except training for scenarios that are never likely to happen.
I can envisage them finding a use if we ever send our troops to lose somebody else's war again (!), but not in any "defence of the country" role, and that's what we should be investing in. We'll be in a position of having troops very well trained in using artillery, but in a war that doesn't require any artillery, very useful.

good point , the super powers have plenty of nukes , as a deterant . mobile arty a deterant against invasion ? maybe .

maybe dan adrews will have the chinese millitary over to his place for a BBQ and they might get rowdy after a few beers ....... . good use of arty

[bigrich]

Yes, drones also spotted for artillery, but the entire war zone was only the size of Melbourne suburbs

I wouldn't know if it got any mention on MSM as I don't use it, but it was televised virtually 24/7 on online sites. I saw more of it in real-time than we got out of Desert Storm.

umm , australia could be potentially a bigger war zone than the one your refer too . i'm not going to try to spell that other country again

[bladeracer]

Yes, drones also spotted for artillery, but the entire war zone was only the size of Melbourne suburbs

I wouldn't know if it got any mention on MSM as I don't use it, but it was televised virtually 24/7 on online sites. I saw more of it in real-time than we got out of Desert Storm.

umm , australia could be potentially a bigger war zone than the one your refer too . i'm not going to try to spell that other country again

It certainly would be, making it even less likely to see any artillery usage. When you have a battlefield that is all within reach of the guns, then artillery plays a short role, before it gets wiped out by the enemy's drones. Once the battlefield is bigger than the range of the guns, they're no longer viable, the enemy isn't going to sit in one spot and wait for our artillery to get set up. The enemy will destroy our artillery with their drones before they even get within range. Watch the Azerbaijan drone videos taking out vehicles and guns before they even knew they were being attacked, the crews run for cover maybe two seconds before the weapon hits them - no warning.

[bladeracer]

I thought you were leaving this conversation.

Ok answer me this, where do you think this mobile artillery will be used by the ADF. Give us a senario where it will be used bonus points for on Australian mainland

a amphibious invasion indonesia is something that has had our military worried at times . i defer to the people in the military making decisions on this subject are privy to more information than you or i

You can't honestly believe this is a decision made to protect Australia? This is a decision that was made to line somebody's pockets, as usual. We have to buy the damned things so somebody else will buy something we're trying to flog, that's how it works. It's all about money.

[cz515]

Absolutely it's about lining the pockets of someone.

The Army guys went we need toys..ok artillery well if we don't buy you new toys you will not have anything to do... let's buy you some big guns. Lolz.

Mate both Indonesia and China are 1000s of km from Australian mainland. Too much risk to send them via boat. So air lift maybe. But first let's bomb the military assets, then land the planes in... the airports and drive into middle of Sydney/Melbourne/Brisbane/Darwin etc within 30 minutes.... while the big artillery is getting warmed up and will take 5hours to reach the said airport.

Unless we are unlikely and all the artillery is sitting in Darwin.

But even then what they will shell Melbourne CBD/spring Street...or Sydney harbour... so they kill the Indonesian but destroy all the buildings... who is going to pay restitution to the building owners and insurance companies...lol

[womble]

Look. We like big guns and we like to blow s**t up.
Screw your silly drones. They are so gay.

[womble]

We could’nt win a war with anyone anyway. I mean literally anyone.
But what we can do, is fly through the bush in those things ripping mad skids and at least have some fun,
until we get irradiated or microwaved or something by some hunter killer predator chinese flying robots.

[bigrich]

Look. We like big guns and we like to blow s**t up.
Screw your silly drones. They are so gay.

agreed

[bigrich]

Absolutely it's about lining the pockets of someone.

The Army guys went we need toys..ok artillery well if we don't buy you new toys you will not have anything to do... let's buy you some big guns. Lolz.

Mate both Indonesia and China are 1000s of km from Australian mainland. Too much risk to send them via boat. So air lift maybe. But first let's bomb the military assets, then land the planes in... the airports and drive into middle of Sydney/Melbourne/Brisbane/Darwin etc within 30 minutes.... while the big artillery is getting warmed up and will take 5hours to reach the said airport.

Unless we are unlikely and all the artillery is sitting in Darwin.

But even then what they will shell Melbourne CBD/spring Street...or Sydney harbour... so they kill the Indonesian but destroy all the buildings... who is going to pay restitution to the building owners and insurance companies...lol

all what-ifs and hypotheticals . take up your grievances with the national security council over their strategy and purchasing plans . you fellas don't seem to be aware of the latest anti air and anti drone technology . i mean the people running all this, higher educated and skilled than the forum members on EG can't think of this stuff if their ordering this arty , there would be a good reason . there's people in national defence who's sole job is to assess possible scenarios .so anything and everything has already been considered .

one could argue tanks are irrelevant . then what , infantry is outdated . so okay , lets just capitulate to our new overlords right now and save all the bother

the amount of millitary investment rampimg up in this country, not just from us , but US assets . not to mention some of the latest technology the USA is starting to share with us . our millitary is being ramped up and it's long overdue

[cz515]

Do you trust the politicians as much as you trust the army people.

Plenty of politics goes on in any organisation, and the ADF would be unique in the world if it didn't happen in it... seeing every other country has similar issues. Look at the history of any of the case studies of recent large defence specifications and procurement processes of US Army/Navy, as you are a student of history and war.

As I said its quite safe to say, if we didn't get these then the whole artillery Corps/Regiment including a couple of hundred people, a few Colonel's and maybe a Brigadier Would have nothing to do.

I rather we pay down the country's debt.. maybe build a couple of schools, more funding to universities, one less toll road..... plenty of better options than pretending to play war. Maybe we will win against NZ army

[bladeracer]

Absolutely it's about lining the pockets of someone.

The Army guys went we need toys..ok artillery well if we don't buy you new toys you will not have anything to do... let's buy you some big guns. Lolz.

Mate both Indonesia and China are 1000s of km from Australian mainland. Too much risk to send them via boat. So air lift maybe. But first let's bomb the military assets, then land the planes in... the airports and drive into middle of Sydney/Melbourne/Brisbane/Darwin etc within 30 minutes.... while the big artillery is getting warmed up and will take 5hours to reach the said airport.

Unless we are unlikely and all the artillery is sitting in Darwin.

But even then what they will shell Melbourne CBD/spring Street...or Sydney harbour... so they kill the Indonesian but destroy all the buildings... who is going to pay restitution to the building owners and insurance companies...lol

all what-ifs and hypotheticals . take up your grievances with the national security council over their strategy and purchasing plans . you fellas don't seem to be aware of the latest anti air and anti drone technology . i mean the people running all this, higher educated and skilled than the forum members on EG can't think of this stuff if their ordering this arty , there would be a good reason . there's people in national defence who's sole job is to assess possible scenarios .so anything and everything has already been considered .

one could argue tanks are irrelevant . then what , infantry is outdated . so okay , lets just capitulate to our new overlords right now and save all the bother

the amount of millitary investment rampimg up in this country, not just from us , but US assets . not to mention some of the latest technology the USA is starting to share with us . our millitary is being ramped up and it's long overdue

Yes, as well as investing in drones we need to be investing in anti-drone tech, and anti-anti-drone systems. Drone tech is a wide field, that's why we need more investiture.

Our entire military is 90,000 troops, including reserves...the vast majority are in support roles, not combat roles. We need every force-multiplying system there is.

[bigrich]

Do you trust the politicians as much as you trust the army people.

Plenty of politics goes on in any organisation, and the ADF would be unique in the world if it didn't happen in it... seeing every other country has similar issues. Look at the history of any of the case studies of recent large defence specifications and procurement processes of US Army/Navy, as you are a student of history and war.

As I said its quite safe to say, if we didn't get these then the whole artillery Corps/Regiment including a couple of hundred people, a few Colonel's and maybe a Brigadier Would have nothing to do.

I rather we pay down the country's debt.. maybe build a couple of schools, more funding to universities, one less toll road..... plenty of better options than pretending to play war. Maybe we will win against NZ army

Cue the circus side show music, doo doo dooded doo ...
Yeah, you’re absolutely right. I should listen to CZ515 on EG over anyone else who is better educated and informed of current and perceived threats....

[bigrich]

Absolutely it's about lining the pockets of someone.

The Army guys went we need toys..ok artillery well if we don't buy you new toys you will not have anything to do... let's buy you some big guns. Lolz.

Mate both Indonesia and China are 1000s of km from Australian mainland. Too much risk to send them via boat. So air lift maybe. But first let's bomb the military assets, then land the planes in... the airports and drive into middle of Sydney/Melbourne/Brisbane/Darwin etc within 30 minutes.... while the big artillery is getting warmed up and will take 5hours to reach the said airport.

Unless we are unlikely and all the artillery is sitting in Darwin.

But even then what they will shell Melbourne CBD/spring Street...or Sydney harbour... so they kill the Indonesian but destroy all the buildings... who is going to pay restitution to the building owners and insurance companies...lol

all what-ifs and hypotheticals . take up your grievances with the national security council over their strategy and purchasing plans . you fellas don't seem to be aware of the latest anti air and anti drone technology . i mean the people running all this, higher educated and skilled than the forum members on EG can't think of this stuff if their ordering this arty , there would be a good reason . there's people in national defence who's sole job is to assess possible scenarios .so anything and everything has already been considered .

one could argue tanks are irrelevant . then what , infantry is outdated . so okay , lets just capitulate to our new overlords right now and save all the bother

the amount of millitary investment rampimg up in this country, not just from us , but US assets . not to mention some of the latest technology the USA is starting to share with us . our millitary is being ramped up and it's long overdue

Yes, as well as investing in drones we need to be investing in anti-drone tech, and anti-anti-drone systems. Drone tech is a wide field, that's why we need more investiture.

Our entire military is 90,000 troops, including reserves...the vast majority are in support roles, not combat roles. We need every force-multiplying system there is.

There’s lots happening in our military. Our country is going to see a lot more US troops, technology and weapons systems. These arty peices are only part of the picture. Lots of the new equipment to be made here. Good for jobs, good for our sovereignty to manufacture in this country. Who knows, maybe the new mobile arty to be manufactured in Geelong will become a export for this country

[cz515]

Umm it's IP is held by a Korean company... and idd say if nothing else the wages there be cheaper then here.

Edit:
Ohh lol I love Google.

In 2011 Turkey agreed to purchase 350 of the k9 for $1 billion ($2.8m ea)
In 2016 Finland purchased 48 of these (used ones) for $160 million ($3.3m ea)
In 2017 India purchased 100 of these for $750m that included technology transfer and 50% of the systems would be built in India ($7.5m)

In 2021 we purchased 30 of these for $768m......

[bladeracer]

Umm it's IP is held by a Korean company... and idd say if nothing else the wages there be cheaper then here.

Edit:
Ohh lol I love Google.

In 2011 Turkey agreed to purchase 350 of the k9 for $1 billion ($2.8m ea)
In 2016 Finland purchased 48 of these (used ones) for $160 million ($3.3m ea)
In 2017 India purchased 100 of these for $750m that included technology transfer and 50% of the systems would be built in India ($7.5m)

In 2021 we purchased 30 of these for $768m......

And because it's Defence we never get to see where the money ends up.

I wonder if Turkey gave any to Azerbaijan that might've seen action?
They're in trouble with Canada for giving aid to Azerbaijan consisting of Canadian imports in breach of the End User Agreement that was part of the deal.

[bigrich]

Umm it's IP is held by a Korean company... and idd say if nothing else the wages there be cheaper then here.

Edit:
Ohh lol I love Google.

In 2011 Turkey agreed to purchase 350 of the k9 for $1 billion ($2.8m ea)
In 2016 Finland purchased 48 of these (used ones) for $160 million ($3.3m ea)
In 2017 India purchased 100 of these for $750m that included technology transfer and 50% of the systems would be built in India ($7.5m)

In 2021 we purchased 30 of these for $768m......

According to the link, they are to be manufactured in Geelong. The company holding the rights can still export them from this country. The rheinmetal plant in Ipswich is gearing up as a armoured plant with the export possibilities globally. The macdonnell Douglas plant at Toowoomba making “the loyal wingman” has a export option to our neighbours as well apparently

[bigrich]

Umm it's IP is held by a Korean company... and idd say if nothing else the wages there be cheaper then here.

Edit:
Ohh lol I love Google.

In 2011 Turkey agreed to purchase 350 of the k9 for $1 billion ($2.8m ea)
In 2016 Finland purchased 48 of these (used ones) for $160 million ($3.3m ea)
In 2017 India purchased 100 of these for $750m that included technology transfer and 50% of the systems would be built in India ($7.5m)

In 2021 we purchased 30 of these for $768m......

And because it's Defence we never get to see where the money ends up.

I wonder if Turkey gave any to Azerbaijan that might've seen action?
They're in trouble with Canada for giving aid to Azerbaijan consisting of Canadian imports in breach of the End User Agreement that was part of the deal.

Ahh, world politics no more maple syrup for turkey then. I believe a lot of minor wars in the world are to a certain extent viewed by some major powers as a opportunity to see their military hardware “field tested”.
With someone else’s troops as the crash test dummies. Wouldn’t put it past some governments to have this perspective

[Bugman]

On a lighter note. Drones used in rabbit culling? Just a thought. But seriously, BR is right. We need more upgraded technology and the skills to use it, for all our armed forces.

[bladeracer]

Umm it's IP is held by a Korean company... and idd say if nothing else the wages there be cheaper then here.

Edit:
Ohh lol I love Google.

In 2011 Turkey agreed to purchase 350 of the k9 for $1 billion ($2.8m ea)
In 2016 Finland purchased 48 of these (used ones) for $160 million ($3.3m ea)
In 2017 India purchased 100 of these for $750m that included technology transfer and 50% of the systems would be built in India ($7.5m)

In 2021 we purchased 30 of these for $768m......

According to the link, they are to be manufactured in Geelong. The company holding the rights can still export them from this country. The rheinmetal plant in Ipswich is gearing up as a armoured plant with the export possibilities globally. The macdonnell Douglas plant at Toowoomba making “the loyal wingman” has a export option to our neighbours as well apparently

That's probably all it is then, we have to buy 30 of them to get the rights to build them here. It's a money deal, nothing to do with improving our military capability.

[bigrich]

Umm it's IP is held by a Korean company... and idd say if nothing else the wages there be cheaper then here.

Edit:
Ohh lol I love Google.

In 2011 Turkey agreed to purchase 350 of the k9 for $1 billion ($2.8m ea)
In 2016 Finland purchased 48 of these (used ones) for $160 million ($3.3m ea)
In 2017 India purchased 100 of these for $750m that included technology transfer and 50% of the systems would be built in India ($7.5m)

In 2021 we purchased 30 of these for $768m......

According to the link, they are to be manufactured in Geelong. The company holding the rights can still export them from this country. The rheinmetal plant in Ipswich is gearing up as a armoured plant with the export possibilities globally. The macdonnell Douglas plant at Toowoomba making “the loyal wingman” has a export option to our neighbours as well apparently

That's probably all it is then, we have to buy 30 of them to get the rights to build them here. It's a money deal, nothing to do with improving our military capability.

Mmm, you don’t think the “loyal wingman “ is for our fighters ? As far as I know it’s already been trialled and the RAAF likes it . Any export opportunity for a multi national is on the table. From what I’ve heard, arms industry manufacturing and weapons technology is something the federal government is pushing for. Not just for our supply, but as a export industry

[bladeracer]

Umm it's IP is held by a Korean company... and idd say if nothing else the wages there be cheaper then here.

Edit:
Ohh lol I love Google.

In 2011 Turkey agreed to purchase 350 of the k9 for $1 billion ($2.8m ea)
In 2016 Finland purchased 48 of these (used ones) for $160 million ($3.3m ea)
In 2017 India purchased 100 of these for $750m that included technology transfer and 50% of the systems would be built in India ($7.5m)

In 2021 we purchased 30 of these for $768m......

According to the link, they are to be manufactured in Geelong. The company holding the rights can still export them from this country. The rheinmetal plant in Ipswich is gearing up as a armoured plant with the export possibilities globally. The macdonnell Douglas plant at Toowoomba making “the loyal wingman” has a export option to our neighbours as well apparently

That's probably all it is then, we have to buy 30 of them to get the rights to build them here. It's a money deal, nothing to do with improving our military capability.

Mmm, you don’t think the “loyal wingman “ is for our fighters ? As far as I know it’s already been trialled and the RAAF likes it . Any export opportunity for a multi national is on the table. From what I’ve heard, arms industry manufacturing and weapons technology is something the federal government is pushing for. Not just for our supply, but as a export industry

The Loyal Wingman project is precisely what I'm saying we need to be investing in, for our country.
The K9's are not, it sounds like a pure business venture, which is fine, except there's no reason we had to lumber our own military budget with them.

[cz515]

Bigrich mate if after my long post you still didn't get the point.

Company xxx gets paid money and they build pro
Product K in Korea, for servicing etc you need to get their technicians to come, alternatively you can ask them to include for a small fee transfer of IP and proprietary information, and training so you can service and maybe even do basic maintenance.

The third option is technology transfer where you can build parts of the products K, service and update. In this situation ofcourse the manufacturer will have conditions, one of the basic one is that you cannot onsell their product or its derived version, as then you are essentially competing with them.

In the k9 situation,India purchased 100 of these for $631m USD with the technology transfer so they could build 50% of the k9 in India.

While we went there and got 30 for $788 AUD, and we build them here.

So you see my point there, on the face of it we got a really sh1t deal.

[bigrich]

Bigrich mate if after my long post you still didn't get the point.

Company xxx gets paid money and they build pro
Product K in Korea, for servicing etc you need to get their technicians to come, alternatively you can ask them to include for a small fee transfer of IP and proprietary information, and training so you can service and maybe even do basic maintenance.

The third option is technology transfer where you can build parts of the products K, service and update. In this situation ofcourse the manufacturer will have conditions, one of the basic one is that you cannot onsell their product or its derived version, as then you are essentially competing with them.

In the k9 situation,India purchased 100 of these for $631m USD with the technology transfer so they could build 50% of the k9 in India.

While we went there and got 30 for $788 AUD, and we build them here.

So you see my point there, on the face of it we got a really sh1t deal.

the way of the modern world i guess . without knowing all the facts of the deal , who can say . you give three different contract versions of the deal , but do you actually know the specifics , which may have been negotiated outside of the examples you give i'm under the impression from the link we have a certain amount of sovergnty regarding this deal with manufacturing . if you can find the specific details of the deal , rather than the superficial "we paid this much, india paid that much" , please pass on the information to clarify the matter .

again , ill defer to the people privy to more information on the struture/organisation of our military as to why we are purchasing this new arty setup . which in all probability , is only a peice of the puzzle

[Blr243]

Guys None of this is relevant. I’m in a shed in central qld. Storm just turned up , it’s raining. I’m on blacksoil. If it keeps raining I won’t be able to go hunting tonight , artillry or no artillery