Really big guns

[Tiger650]

https://www.kedglobal.com/newsView/ked202112130012

Not before time I reckon.
Australia was offered surplus German PzH 2000s at a bargain price a few years back but we declined, this Korean gun system seems impressive.
Will piss the Chinese off too which is a good thing.

[bigrich]

Excellent. Good stuff!

[No1Mk3]

And how, pray tell, will China be pissed off we buy a Korean SPG instead of a Yank or European one? It's not as if we were looking to buy one of theirs is it?

[Bugman]

Me thinks the Chinese SPG has only a limited 12 month warranty. After that " solly, rawwanty no good anymore"

[bladeracer]

https://www.kedglobal.com/newsView/ked202112130012

Not before time I reckon.
Australia was offered surplus German PzH 2000s at a bargain price a few years back but we declined, this Korean gun system seems impressive.
Will piss the Chinese off too which is a good thing.

China and Korea have good trade relations nowadays, so there is almost certainly Chinese architecture in something produced in Korea. I can't see any reason the West purchasing from Korea would upset the Chinese, they still get their cut from it.

Why any Western country is investing in conventional artillery anymore is ridiculous though. Drones, missiles, targeting systems and cyber-tech is where our money should be going.

[Blr243]

Saw topic title and thought this must relate to stuff bigger than my 4570

[No1Mk3]

Saw topic title and thought this must relate to stuff bigger than my 4570

A bit bigger, but single shot, breech loading, must be Cat B surely!

[cz515]

Lol I think it should be cat b as well.

Anyway so we spending basically 26 million dollars per howitzer... which can fire an artillery round at an enemy upto 45km.... that's really nice when are we invading WA. Cuz last I checked China didn't border with Australia via land... and even if they do what will 30 howitzers do.

Yes drone and rocket tech is what we should be...or even let's first increase the militarily size. All the dole bludgers need to work.

I won't even go on how many hospital beds it would build to deal with covid and less lockdowns.

All it does is line pockets of defence contractors.

[womble]

They are pretty cool though

[Tiger650]

China and Korea have good trade relations nowadays, so there is almost certainly Chinese architecture in something produced in Korea. I can't see any reason the West purchasing from Korea would upset the Chinese, they still get their cut from it.
And how, pray tell, will China be pissed off we buy a Korean SPG instead of a Yank or European one? It's not as if we were looking to buy one of theirs is it?

There is no "chinese architecture" [WTF that means ?] in the Korean gun system, read above attached article or others for list of involved international contractors.
The Chicoms will be pissed off on two points, we reinforce an anti communist nation pretty much on their border and also to reinforce Australia's defence capability invariably invokes a hissy fit.

As far as drones and missiles and such goes.

I have been out of the Arty game since the mid 1970's but follow developments, The Queen of Battle [Napoleon] is worlds away from back then and I suspect some have poor understanding of even what Arty was capable that long ago..

Scenario:

Company of mounted infantry detected by a cheap forward observer launched drone [or F35 or Wedgetail or whatever] assembled 35 km from the Forward Edge of Battle Area, what expensive missile[s] would you use on a such a [presumably dispersed] target ?
Would you send in an airstrike ?

Answer please.

Sensor platform downloads target data for each individual target to Arty Tac

A well dispersed battery of 6 guns of 155mm calibre would have 36 rounds in the air, using varying tube elevations, within such a time as to have all impact their targets simultaneously, called a MRSI fire mission.

Two rounds each gun to each individual targer with an accuracy of 6 metres circular error probable [we have Met] .

Given that the guns are functionally semi autos they can then "repeat" if required or switch very rapidly to any other targets within range.

Then we look at various projectiles, these can be expensive in the case of submunition dispensing rounds but even Chinese tanks and infantry fighting vehicles are much costly, talking hardware casualties only here and not allowing for dead communists, the latter are cheap and plentiful.

Less expensive rounds come standard with a variable time fuse, airburst for troops in the open or delay if the buggers are entrenched, I confess that my favourite was airburst white phosphorous but that apparently is now "illegal" [FFS]

The guns shoot maybe 12 rnds rapid, at whatever targets, and displace to avoid counter battery fire, maybe but not necessarily mate up with the armoured ammo replenishment tracks and minutes later ready do it all again..

Napoleon was not a F#c$wit.

[bigrich]

Well said tiger, and thanks for the explanation of the tactical side of things. I believe the accuracy of artillery fire support in Vietnam was truly astonishing and powerful against offensives from Vietcong and NVA . Our military has been lagging for years, and the recent spend up to modernise our military capabilities are long overdue

[cz515]

Anyway Tiger thanks for your explanation. The thing as you pointed out was Napoleon (Germans etc) was fighting a land based war in Europe. Australia is quite unique, where all our major population centres are right on edge of the continent so there is no long protracted march inland by invading army where you could use artillery. If say Chinese invade first thing they will do is bomb the s**t out of 3 Australian cities... actually they are likely to bomb the s**t out of our bases in Sydney, land a few troop carriers into circular quay and then the question will arise who is going to bomb a major city with infrastructure and millions of people?

And regarding artillery in Vietnam, will how did the war end?

Artillery works in closeish combat, but between neighbours to stop a land invasion or destroy Remy embankment .So say between war of China and India artillery would work, even invasion of Kuwait by Iraq (don't remember if they used it or just tanks) or then The invasion of Iraq, which as we say was mostly air then a quick drive into Baghdad in tanks. And it sure as hell is not suitable if China decides to invade Australia... say Sydney/Melbourne.

These when built will be 30 spread across all of Australia. Not all sitting in Puckapunyal waiting for Chinese to do a long slow march from Melbourne to Puckapunyal. Naa mate they will land in docklands and then use the population as human shields.

Or as i keep saying, Chinese will never attack Australia, what does it gain, apart from saving face, for which they just need to wait till labour government comes into power. And they are more interested in Tiawan anyway.

[bladeracer]

China and Korea have good trade relations nowadays, so there is almost certainly Chinese architecture in something produced in Korea. I can't see any reason the West purchasing from Korea would upset the Chinese, they still get their cut from it.
And how, pray tell, will China be pissed off we buy a Korean SPG instead of a Yank or European one? It's not as if we were looking to buy one of theirs is it?

There is no "chinese architecture" [WTF that means ?] in the Korean gun system, read above attached article or others for list of involved international contractors.
The Chicoms will be pissed off on two points, we reinforce an anti communist nation pretty much on their border and also to reinforce Australia's defence capability invariably invokes a hissy fit.

As far as drones and missiles and such goes.

I have been out of the Arty game since the mid 1970's but follow developments, The Queen of Battle [Napoleon] is worlds away from back then and I suspect some have poor understanding of even what Arty was capable that long ago..

Scenario:

Company of mounted infantry detected by a cheap forward observer launched drone [or F35 or Wedgetail or whatever] assembled 35 km from the Forward Edge of Battle Area, what expensive missile[s] would you use on a such a [presumably dispersed] target ?
Would you send in an airstrike ?

Answer please.

Sensor platform downloads target data for each individual target to Arty Tac

A well dispersed battery of 6 guns of 155mm calibre would have 36 rounds in the air, using varying tube elevations, within such a time as to have all impact their targets simultaneously, called a MRSI fire mission.

Two rounds each gun to each individual targer with an accuracy of 6 metres circular error probable [we have Met] .

Given that the guns are functionally semi autos they can then "repeat" if required or switch very rapidly to any other targets within range.

Then we look at various projectiles, these can be expensive in the case of submunition dispensing rounds but even Chinese tanks and infantry fighting vehicles are much costly, talking hardware casualties only here and not allowing for dead communists, the latter are cheap and plentiful.

Less expensive rounds come standard with a variable time fuse, airburst for troops in the open or delay if the buggers are entrenched, I confess that my favourite was airburst white phosphorous but that apparently is now "illegal" [FFS]

The guns shoot maybe 12 rnds rapid, at whatever targets, and displace to avoid counter battery fire, maybe but not necessarily mate up with the armoured ammo replenishment tracks and minutes later ready do it all again..

Napoleon was not a F#c$wit.

If Korean companies buy and use Chinese-manufactured components, are you saying they make concerted efforts to ensure they don't include anything made in China in the construction of these for some reason? Fasteners, wiring, seals, electronic components, even the paper the manuals are printed on could well be Chinese-sourced. Unless you are saying the companies building these things would be ensuring nothing came out of China?

How much infrastructure is required to get those artillery batteries into a position to be able to carry out such a barrage? How does that compare to simply putting up a drone with some missiles on board? What does it cost to not only own those artillery pieces, but to get them into and out of a firing position, and how much cheaper do you reckon it would be to fire some very expensive missiles instead? How much time is required to get those guns and crews together and put them into a position to make such an attack, and how does that compare to being able to put an armed drone overhead within an hour of receiving Intel about the enemy incursion?

Artillery is Napoleanic technology and no longer relevant.

[cz515]

Good point blade.

The 30 units are going to cost 20million dollars each, but if you include the 10 support vehicles the cost is $26m plus personel and ammo cost, that's if they can be built under budget, which ADF/any govt procurement contract doesn't do.plus they weigh over 47T. So you will need special roads, special trucks (same as OD routes) to manoeuvre these. Normal artillery are on a trailer attached to a truck, sure they are not fully automatic but lot easier to transport them.

Here is another completely different stat, the rockets HAMAS send cost $300each. To intercept them Israeli famous Iron Dome costs $50-100k per intercept.

[bladeracer]

An artillery position is also much easier to attack than drones are. The artillery position is a large target that is fixed in place for a significant period of time. Drones can be concealed anywhere and sent up only when they are needed. Other units also need to operate with that fixed position as a significant part of their operations. Drones can be sent up wherever and whenever is most advantageous.

The Azerbaijan War last year was an amazing display of how a defensive war can now be fought almost entirely by a few people in an office operating drones with no regard to weather conditions, and with almost total immunity to an enemy response. If an enemy ground force crosses your border you just put up some drones and use precision weapons to destroy the enemy one vehicle, one man, one gun after another. Zero collateral damage, zero damage to infrastructure, zero wastage of ordnance, zero risk to your own forces. Recon drones remain on-station 24/7, relaying real-time Intel on _every_ enemy movement and position, while armed drones cycle continuously between attacking and rearming until the enemy decides life is too difficult under such conditions.

[bigrich]

These guns are totally relevant, at the range they can work at with precision. Indonesia is right on our doorstep too you know. You can bomb the sh!t out of a place, but without boots on the ground it’s no victory

[bladeracer]

These guns are totally relevant, at the range they can work at with precision. Indonesia is right on our doorstep too you know. You can bomb the sh!t out of a place, but without boots on the ground it’s no victory

Putting boots on the ground is slowed down by lumbering them with artillery.

[bigrich]

These guns are totally relevant, at the range they can work at with precision. Indonesia is right on our doorstep too you know. You can bomb the sh!t out of a place, but without boots on the ground it’s no victory

Putting boots on the ground is slowed down by lumbering them with artillery.

These artillery pieces move pretty quick. 60 something Kay’s an hour from the info link ? Without support infantry can cop a hard time going by history. It was Australian general Monash in the First World War that dreamed up walking artillery in front of the infantry with armoured and air support. It smashed German lines and the capitulated. They learned their lesson. They adopted that strategy and called it blitzkreig during world war 2 .
I’m sure that if our military planners want self propelled artillery, they must have valid reasons. Or should “enough gun “ forum be running the defence of our nation ?

[cz515]

There you go listening to fairy tales. Most of ww1/2 Australian soldiers were used as Canon fodder infront of the British. In the Afghanistan war, we sent a few hundred people including some SAS... and we have heard stories in media recently what antics they got upto.

And is Indonesia and Malaysia 40km from Darwin?

Have you looked at all the customers of the company who have bought these k9s.....all of them have a land locked border with a country they have fought a war with in the last 50 years. Australia is the only island country.

[bladeracer]

These guns are totally relevant, at the range they can work at with precision. Indonesia is right on our doorstep too you know. You can bomb the sh!t out of a place, but without boots on the ground it’s no victory

Putting boots on the ground is slowed down by lumbering them with artillery.

These artillery pieces move pretty quick. 60 something Kay’s an hour from the info link ? Without support infantry can cop a hard time going by history. It was Australian general Monash in the First World War that dreamed up walking artillery in front of the infantry with armoured and air support. It smashed German lines and the capitulated. They learned their lesson. They adopted that strategy and called it blitzkreig during world war 2 .
I’m sure that if our military planners want self propelled artillery, they must have valid reasons. Or should “enough gun “ forum be running the defence of our nation ?

My guess is somebody wants our military to buy them because it puts lots of money in somebody's pockets, not because it advantages our position.

[bladeracer]

These guns are totally relevant, at the range they can work at with precision. Indonesia is right on our doorstep too you know. You can bomb the sh!t out of a place, but without boots on the ground it’s no victory

Putting boots on the ground is slowed down by lumbering them with artillery.

These artillery pieces move pretty quick. 60 something Kay’s an hour from the info link ? Without support infantry can cop a hard time going by history. It was Australian general Monash in the First World War that dreamed up walking artillery in front of the infantry with armoured and air support. It smashed German lines and the capitulated. They learned their lesson. They adopted that strategy and called it blitzkreig during world war 2 .
I’m sure that if our military planners want self propelled artillery, they must have valid reasons. Or should “enough gun “ forum be running the defence of our nation ?

60kph is great, if you're just transporting personnel or stores, not for a gun that carries a handful of rounds on board, then becomes just a target until the infrastructure catches up to resupply it.

[bladeracer]

The only benefit of having artillery now is to keep artillery units employed. Our funds would be far better invested in retraining our artillery units with with modern and future systems instead.

[bigrich]

There you go listening to fairy tales. Most of ww1/2 Australian soldiers were used as Canon fodder infront of the British. In the Afghanistan war, we sent a few hundred people including some SAS... and we have heard stories in media recently what antics they got upto.

And is Indonesia and Malaysia 40km from Darwin?

Have you looked at all the customers of the company who have bought these k9s.....all of them have a land locked border with a country they have fought a war with in the last 50 years. Australia is the only island country.

Fairy tales ? Freaking facts mate . Study your history. And I don’t mean a quick google search. I’m 53 and have read countless books on lots of different history, written from first hand facts and reports. Read “hero’s of hamel “ it gives factual accounts of the AIF on the western front and monash’s brilliance and love for his men . He’s the guy on our $100 note by the way .
I suppose it’s pointless to argue that these mobile artillery is a good thing, the internet experts are far smarter. War now is all about pushing buttons and using drones

[bigrich]

These guns are totally relevant, at the range they can work at with precision. Indonesia is right on our doorstep too you know. You can bomb the sh!t out of a place, but without boots on the ground it’s no victory

Putting boots on the ground is slowed down by lumbering them with artillery.

These artillery pieces move pretty quick. 60 something Kay’s an hour from the info link ? Without support infantry can cop a hard time going by history. It was Australian general Monash in the First World War that dreamed up walking artillery in front of the infantry with armoured and air support. It smashed German lines and the capitulated. They learned their lesson. They adopted that strategy and called it blitzkreig during world war 2 .
I’m sure that if our military planners want self propelled artillery, they must have valid reasons. Or should “enough gun “ forum be running the defence of our nation ?

60kph is great, if you're just transporting personnel or stores, not for a gun that carries a handful of rounds on board, then becomes just a target until the infrastructure catches up to resupply it.

I do believe we have support vehicles capable of do 60k a hour. I paced the LAV’s on the highway south of Brisbane at 85k’s . I just don’t get why people are so quick to poo poo sorely needed military upgrades .

[bladeracer]

There you go listening to fairy tales. Most of ww1/2 Australian soldiers were used as Canon fodder infront of the British. In the Afghanistan war, we sent a few hundred people including some SAS... and we have heard stories in media recently what antics they got upto.

And is Indonesia and Malaysia 40km from Darwin?

Have you looked at all the customers of the company who have bought these k9s.....all of them have a land locked border with a country they have fought a war with in the last 50 years. Australia is the only island country.

Fairy tales ? Freaking facts mate . Study your history. And I don’t mean a quick google search. I’m 53 and have read countless books on lots of different history, written from first hand facts and reports. Read “hero’s of hamel “ it gives factual accounts of the AIF on the western front and monash’s brilliance and love for his men . He’s the guy on our $100 note by the way .
I suppose it’s pointless to argue that these mobile artillery is a good thing, the internet experts are far smarter. War now is all about pushing buttons and using drones

Did you watch the Azerbaijan War at all? Do you think they would've gotten a better result by sending in thousands of troops, vehicles and artillery instead of using the drones? Troops and vehicles these days are nothing more than targets to an enemy equipped with modern weapon systems.

[bigrich]

There you go listening to fairy tales. Most of ww1/2 Australian soldiers were used as Canon fodder infront of the British. In the Afghanistan war, we sent a few hundred people including some SAS... and we have heard stories in media recently what antics they got upto.

And is Indonesia and Malaysia 40km from Darwin?

Have you looked at all the customers of the company who have bought these k9s.....all of them have a land locked border with a country they have fought a war with in the last 50 years. Australia is the only island country.

Fairy tales ? Freaking facts mate . Study your history. And I don’t mean a quick google search. I’m 53 and have read countless books on lots of different history, written from first hand facts and reports. Read “hero’s of hamel “ it gives factual accounts of the AIF on the western front and monash’s brilliance and love for his men . He’s the guy on our $100 note by the way .
I suppose it’s pointless to argue that these mobile artillery is a good thing, the internet experts are far smarter. War now is all about pushing buttons and using drones

Did you watch the Azerbaijan War at all? Do you think they would've gotten a better result by sending in thousands of troops, vehicles and artillery instead of using the drones? Troops and vehicles these days are nothing more than targets to an enemy equipped with modern weapon systems.

Sorry, not aware of that war . I can see this is going to go round and round. You win guys. I’m out of this discussion.
Give up your day jobs and join our national security department. They obviously have no plans or idea

[bladeracer]

There you go listening to fairy tales. Most of ww1/2 Australian soldiers were used as Canon fodder infront of the British. In the Afghanistan war, we sent a few hundred people including some SAS... and we have heard stories in media recently what antics they got upto.

And is Indonesia and Malaysia 40km from Darwin?

Have you looked at all the customers of the company who have bought these k9s.....all of them have a land locked border with a country they have fought a war with in the last 50 years. Australia is the only island country.

Fairy tales ? Freaking facts mate . Study your history. And I don’t mean a quick google search. I’m 53 and have read countless books on lots of different history, written from first hand facts and reports. Read “hero’s of hamel “ it gives factual accounts of the AIF on the western front and monash’s brilliance and love for his men . He’s the guy on our $100 note by the way .
I suppose it’s pointless to argue that these mobile artillery is a good thing, the internet experts are far smarter. War now is all about pushing buttons and using drones

Did you watch the Azerbaijan War at all? Do you think they would've gotten a better result by sending in thousands of troops, vehicles and artillery instead of using the drones? Troops and vehicles these days are nothing more than targets to an enemy equipped with modern weapon systems.

Sorry, not aware of that war . I can see this is going to go round and round. You win guys. I’m out of this discussion.
Give up your day jobs and join our national security department. They obviously have no plans or idea

You have great interest in warfare and military technology but are totally unaware of a war a year ago that was televised all over the world, and used the latest in drone technologies? I can see now why you still consider artillery to have some relevance
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Na ... rabakh_war

[bladeracer]

I suppose it’s pointless to argue that these mobile artillery is a good thing, the internet experts are far smarter.

I take it you are including yourself as an "internet expert"...

[bladeracer]

Well said tiger, and thanks for the explanation of the tactical side of things. I believe the accuracy of artillery fire support in Vietnam was truly astonishing and powerful against offensives from Vietcong and NVA . Our military has been lagging for years, and the recent spend up to modernise our military capabilities are long overdue

Artillery was indeed crucial to fighting a losing war in Vietnam, but that was more than fifty years ago...

[bigrich]

I suppose it’s pointless to argue that these mobile artillery is a good thing, the internet experts are far smarter.

I take it you are including yourself as an "internet expert"...

not at all . i have faith in highly trained people planning our military's tactics and advancement in technology and strategy . i'm all for the new purchase of mobile artillery as it signals long overdue upgrades after years of funding decline . they obviously are also privy to facts and info we aren't . i'm not the one who's critical of the tactics and wisdom of purchasing "obsolete" artillery . i leave that to the strategists on this forum . my veiws aren't set in stone and i'm willing to listen to other veiws , but on this subject i'll leave it to our millitary planners to make decisions in the national interest

there's a lot going on in upgrading our military , with new weaponry and technology being made right here in oz . rheinmetal , macdonald douglas are just the tip of the iceberg . and that's just what we know about