Tiger650 wrote:https://www.kedglobal.com/newsView/ked202112130012
Not before time I reckon.
Australia was offered surplus German PzH 2000s at a bargain price a few years back but we declined, this Korean gun system seems impressive.
Will piss the Chinese off too which is a good thing.
Blr243 wrote:Saw topic title and thought this must relate to stuff bigger than my 4570
Tiger650 wrote:China and Korea have good trade relations nowadays, so there is almost certainly Chinese architecture in something produced in Korea. I can't see any reason the West purchasing from Korea would upset the Chinese, they still get their cut from it.
And how, pray tell, will China be pissed off we buy a Korean SPG instead of a Yank or European one? It's not as if we were looking to buy one of theirs is it?
There is no "chinese architecture" [WTF that means ?] in the Korean gun system, read above attached article or others for list of involved international contractors.
The Chicoms will be pissed off on two points, we reinforce an anti communist nation pretty much on their border and also to reinforce Australia's defence capability invariably invokes a hissy fit.
As far as drones and missiles and such goes.
I have been out of the Arty game since the mid 1970's but follow developments, The Queen of Battle [Napoleon] is worlds away from back then and I suspect some have poor understanding of even what Arty was capable that long ago..
Scenario:
Company of mounted infantry detected by a cheap forward observer launched drone [or F35 or Wedgetail or whatever] assembled 35 km from the Forward Edge of Battle Area, what expensive missile[s] would you use on a such a [presumably dispersed] target ?
Would you send in an airstrike ?
Answer please.
Sensor platform downloads target data for each individual target to Arty Tac
A well dispersed battery of 6 guns of 155mm calibre would have 36 rounds in the air, using varying tube elevations, within such a time as to have all impact their targets simultaneously, called a MRSI fire mission.
Two rounds each gun to each individual targer with an accuracy of 6 metres circular error probable [we have Met] .
Given that the guns are functionally semi autos they can then "repeat" if required or switch very rapidly to any other targets within range.
Then we look at various projectiles, these can be expensive in the case of submunition dispensing rounds but even Chinese tanks and infantry fighting vehicles are much costly, talking hardware casualties only here and not allowing for dead communists, the latter are cheap and plentiful.
Less expensive rounds come standard with a variable time fuse, airburst for troops in the open or delay if the buggers are entrenched, I confess that my favourite was airburst white phosphorous but that apparently is now "illegal" [FFS]
The guns shoot maybe 12 rnds rapid, at whatever targets, and displace to avoid counter battery fire, maybe but not necessarily mate up with the armoured ammo replenishment tracks and minutes later ready do it all again..
Napoleon was not a F#c$wit.
bigrich wrote:These guns are totally relevant, at the range they can work at with precision. Indonesia is right on our doorstep too you know. You can bomb the sh!t out of a place, but without boots on the ground it’s no victory
bladeracer wrote:bigrich wrote:These guns are totally relevant, at the range they can work at with precision. Indonesia is right on our doorstep too you know. You can bomb the sh!t out of a place, but without boots on the ground it’s no victory
Putting boots on the ground is slowed down by lumbering them with artillery.
bigrich wrote:bladeracer wrote:bigrich wrote:These guns are totally relevant, at the range they can work at with precision. Indonesia is right on our doorstep too you know. You can bomb the sh!t out of a place, but without boots on the ground it’s no victory
Putting boots on the ground is slowed down by lumbering them with artillery.
These artillery pieces move pretty quick. 60 something Kay’s an hour from the info link ? Without support infantry can cop a hard time going by history. It was Australian general Monash in the First World War that dreamed up walking artillery in front of the infantry with armoured and air support. It smashed German lines and the capitulated. They learned their lesson. They adopted that strategy and called it blitzkreig during world war 2 .
I’m sure that if our military planners want self propelled artillery, they must have valid reasons. Or should “enough gun “ forum be running the defence of our nation ?
bigrich wrote:bladeracer wrote:bigrich wrote:These guns are totally relevant, at the range they can work at with precision. Indonesia is right on our doorstep too you know. You can bomb the sh!t out of a place, but without boots on the ground it’s no victory
Putting boots on the ground is slowed down by lumbering them with artillery.
These artillery pieces move pretty quick. 60 something Kay’s an hour from the info link ? Without support infantry can cop a hard time going by history. It was Australian general Monash in the First World War that dreamed up walking artillery in front of the infantry with armoured and air support. It smashed German lines and the capitulated. They learned their lesson. They adopted that strategy and called it blitzkreig during world war 2 .
I’m sure that if our military planners want self propelled artillery, they must have valid reasons. Or should “enough gun “ forum be running the defence of our nation ?
cz515 wrote:There you go listening to fairy tales. Most of ww1/2 Australian soldiers were used as Canon fodder infront of the British. In the Afghanistan war, we sent a few hundred people including some SAS... and we have heard stories in media recently what antics they got upto.
And is Indonesia and Malaysia 40km from Darwin?
Have you looked at all the customers of the company who have bought these k9s.....all of them have a land locked border with a country they have fought a war with in the last 50 years. Australia is the only island country.
bladeracer wrote:bigrich wrote:bladeracer wrote:bigrich wrote:These guns are totally relevant, at the range they can work at with precision. Indonesia is right on our doorstep too you know. You can bomb the sh!t out of a place, but without boots on the ground it’s no victory
Putting boots on the ground is slowed down by lumbering them with artillery.
These artillery pieces move pretty quick. 60 something Kay’s an hour from the info link ? Without support infantry can cop a hard time going by history. It was Australian general Monash in the First World War that dreamed up walking artillery in front of the infantry with armoured and air support. It smashed German lines and the capitulated. They learned their lesson. They adopted that strategy and called it blitzkreig during world war 2 .
I’m sure that if our military planners want self propelled artillery, they must have valid reasons. Or should “enough gun “ forum be running the defence of our nation ?
60kph is great, if you're just transporting personnel or stores, not for a gun that carries a handful of rounds on board, then becomes just a target until the infrastructure catches up to resupply it.
bigrich wrote:cz515 wrote:There you go listening to fairy tales. Most of ww1/2 Australian soldiers were used as Canon fodder infront of the British. In the Afghanistan war, we sent a few hundred people including some SAS... and we have heard stories in media recently what antics they got upto.
And is Indonesia and Malaysia 40km from Darwin?
Have you looked at all the customers of the company who have bought these k9s.....all of them have a land locked border with a country they have fought a war with in the last 50 years. Australia is the only island country.
Fairy tales ? Freaking facts mate . Study your history. And I don’t mean a quick google search. I’m 53 and have read countless books on lots of different history, written from first hand facts and reports. Read “hero’s of hamel “ it gives factual accounts of the AIF on the western front and monash’s brilliance and love for his men . He’s the guy on our $100 note by the way .
I suppose it’s pointless to argue that these mobile artillery is a good thing, the internet experts are far smarter. War now is all about pushing buttons and using drones
bladeracer wrote:bigrich wrote:cz515 wrote:There you go listening to fairy tales. Most of ww1/2 Australian soldiers were used as Canon fodder infront of the British. In the Afghanistan war, we sent a few hundred people including some SAS... and we have heard stories in media recently what antics they got upto.
And is Indonesia and Malaysia 40km from Darwin?
Have you looked at all the customers of the company who have bought these k9s.....all of them have a land locked border with a country they have fought a war with in the last 50 years. Australia is the only island country.
Fairy tales ? Freaking facts mate . Study your history. And I don’t mean a quick google search. I’m 53 and have read countless books on lots of different history, written from first hand facts and reports. Read “hero’s of hamel “ it gives factual accounts of the AIF on the western front and monash’s brilliance and love for his men . He’s the guy on our $100 note by the way .
I suppose it’s pointless to argue that these mobile artillery is a good thing, the internet experts are far smarter. War now is all about pushing buttons and using drones
Did you watch the Azerbaijan War at all? Do you think they would've gotten a better result by sending in thousands of troops, vehicles and artillery instead of using the drones? Troops and vehicles these days are nothing more than targets to an enemy equipped with modern weapon systems.
bigrich wrote:bladeracer wrote:bigrich wrote:cz515 wrote:There you go listening to fairy tales. Most of ww1/2 Australian soldiers were used as Canon fodder infront of the British. In the Afghanistan war, we sent a few hundred people including some SAS... and we have heard stories in media recently what antics they got upto.
And is Indonesia and Malaysia 40km from Darwin?
Have you looked at all the customers of the company who have bought these k9s.....all of them have a land locked border with a country they have fought a war with in the last 50 years. Australia is the only island country.
Fairy tales ? Freaking facts mate . Study your history. And I don’t mean a quick google search. I’m 53 and have read countless books on lots of different history, written from first hand facts and reports. Read “hero’s of hamel “ it gives factual accounts of the AIF on the western front and monash’s brilliance and love for his men . He’s the guy on our $100 note by the way .
I suppose it’s pointless to argue that these mobile artillery is a good thing, the internet experts are far smarter. War now is all about pushing buttons and using drones
Did you watch the Azerbaijan War at all? Do you think they would've gotten a better result by sending in thousands of troops, vehicles and artillery instead of using the drones? Troops and vehicles these days are nothing more than targets to an enemy equipped with modern weapon systems.
Sorry, not aware of that war . I can see this is going to go round and round. You win guys. I’m out of this discussion.
Give up your day jobs and join our national security department. They obviously have no plans or idea
bigrich wrote:I suppose it’s pointless to argue that these mobile artillery is a good thing, the internet experts are far smarter.
bigrich wrote:Well said tiger, and thanks for the explanation of the tactical side of things. I believe the accuracy of artillery fire support in Vietnam was truly astonishing and powerful against offensives from Vietcong and NVA . Our military has been lagging for years, and the recent spend up to modernise our military capabilities are long overdue
bladeracer wrote:bigrich wrote:I suppose it’s pointless to argue that these mobile artillery is a good thing, the internet experts are far smarter.
I take it you are including yourself as an "internet expert"...