Mask effectiveness

[Die Judicii]

For one of the questions asked by the OP,,

In relation to mask material being a barrier/or not,,,, to virus.
I'd be interested to know,,,,, What size is the particles of cigarette smoke ?? Compared to virus.

Cos cigarette smoke goes straight through the average masks,,,,,, seemingly directly through with zero impedance.

[Baronvonrort]

Baron..... your first article clearly states that the authors are proposing the theory of aerosols.

The thing with research papers is people come up with ideas...theories, and then go about giving reasons in support of the theory. Then other scientists come read the article and try to prove it, either failing or winning. And that's why the article need to be taken in context.

That's why I prefer using authorative sources. Here researches or people expert in their fields give advice based on their expert knowledge.


Looking at the advice from CDC, WHO and our own RACGP the main forms of transmission is still classed as droplets with aerosol an important one as well. Now this is new and as things change and new information is found the advice will also change. But even if aerosols are the dominant factor droplets will still be important and stopping them would be better than having nothing.

Finally no one said you shouldn't wear a n95 mask... the only thing they say is wearing a mask of any sort is better than not wearing anything.

There are plenty of articles out there confirming covid is aerosol i just plucked 2.

What about the Australian one i linked are you saying the medical jounal of Australia is not credible?

Countries which acknowledged the danger of airborne transmission have not only been able to control COVID-19 in the community, but where cases have occurred, they have been able to safeguard healthcare workers from getting infected. Countries which have not, including Australia, the United Kingdom, the United States, and many European nations, have not only seen widespread community transmission, but staggering numbers of healthcare worker infections. In Melbourne, 4,170 clinical and non-clinical healthcare workers were infected with SARS-CoV-2, most of them in the workplace.25
https://www.mja.com.au/journal/2021/australia-must-act-prevent-airborne-transmission-sars-cov-2

Listen to this doctor on CNN saying cloth masks are nothing more than facial decoration. https://twitter.com/TheEliKlein/status/1473080868734443525

A mask is a tool do you wear it to protect yourself or to protect others? If you're going to wear one are you going to use one that actually protects you from infection or one that doesn't protect you from anything apart from being fined?

As for WHO being credible you're kidding yourself.

[wanneroo]

Well I have to say the propaganda has been very effective convincing people they should wear masks and that they work.

Governments and medical people knew from day one that masks as most people wear them have almost no effectiveness at all.

But they went with it as a psychological ploy that makes everyone think we are all in this together and wow we are really doing something to stop it!

The reality is that it is like putting up a chain link fence to stop mosquitos in your yard. If you are around someone with Covid with full symptoms they are shedding virus particles everywhere and no mask is stopping it. If you are in close contact with them or what they touch and get enough of a viral load, you are getting it.

Also masks play an important role for the oligarchs in dehumanizing everyone. Non verbal communication is an important part of communication and without it we are not really connecting with people in the same way.

We already know from testing the virus particles themselves that they don't like ventilation, water and UV rays. The best thing you can do is stay outdoors, in ventilated areas and soak up the sun. Stay away from sick people with symptoms. If you are sick stay home.

[womble]

i know right,
I used to talk to anyone who would listen at the supermarket about the dehumanising ogliarcs and government coverups.
How times have changed. Nowadays i carry a strong uv light everywhere i go and rub strong household disinfectant all over my face and chest.
Used to chat up the checkout chick, but now she’s just another reptilian who wants to rip of my mask and lay her eggs in my mouth. Now i just avoid eye contact and run as fast as i can to my car and lock the doors.

[mchughcb]

For one of the questions asked by the OP,,

In relation to mask material being a barrier/or not,,,, to virus.
I'd be interested to know,,,,, What size is the particles of cigarette smoke ?? Compared to virus.

Cos cigarette smoke goes straight through the average masks,,,,,, seemingly directly through with zero impedance.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2751166/

There is a size distribution obviously but the size seams to have a median around the 0.3-0.5 microns which is interesting as the N95 mask is rated to filter 95% of 0.3 microns but ultra fine smoke is below 0.1 micron.

So not only will it slip out the sides of the mask and stay airborne for a long time, the sub 0.3 is going to pass through and with smoke its visual how much the load is, especially through a mask. I did have a graph showing size versus vs time for settling, can't find it now but once its down to that size it can circulate for hours or days. So inside poor ventilation means bad news.

[disco stu]

For one of the questions asked by the OP,,

In relation to mask material being a barrier/or not,,,, to virus.
I'd be interested to know,,,,, What size is the particles of cigarette smoke ?? Compared to virus.

Cos cigarette smoke goes straight through the average masks,,,,,, seemingly directly through with zero impedance.

I had wondered about particle size of smoke compared to "water droplets", "aerosols" etc. I should remember as I did research project years ago on light transmission through smoke for remote sensing, but never used the info since. If the smoke passes through easily it would at least allow making a comparison of the amount of breath that goes through the mask compared to leaking at the sides, as I'm very intrigued about that

I mean the difference between aerosols and water droplets is an arbitrary 5um (I think, don't quote me on that), but still liquid droplets, so to me it seems like arguing about the same thing just whether one is just a wee bit smaller than the other.

What was relevant to my original line of thinking and the effectiveness of masks was that what would be called aerosols traveled easily around the sides of the mask, while the larger droplets didn't. A few studies I read also noted that the smaller the droplet (or aerosol) the greater number of viruses per unit volume, which was also mentioned in those articles barovonrort posted. But the ones I read were looking at flu or similar rather than covid specifically.

I should also note, my interest in this wasn't me trying to find some reason not to wear a mask (don't have to here now anyway) or trying to stick it to government, nothing like that. I like understanding if things that are accepted work, and how they work if it's not immediately apparent, and given the amount of leakage I've seen with surgical style masks I didn't think it was as simple as "they're a filter". Deep down inside I guess I probably am an nerdy academic type at heart

[cz515]

Baron I saw that article you linked. On the top it said that it's a pre-release article waiting to be reviewed, and it was published in April 2021.

Furthermore I think you need to stop researching, just go back to the Fox News, or atleast wait till the Truth network comes online, I mean I know it's a mean thing to say, but the fact you didn't pickup my comment about aerosols and the articles you keep posting as evidence means it's a something we shouldn't be doing.

Going back to disco, your original question is quite valid, and yes it raises a lot of questions, but I would like to reiterate what I said before, every little bit we do can help slow down the spread. Furthermore I have never found a surgical mask that allows zero air to pass through its material. Otherwise there would be a suffocation hazard warning on it.

Secondly as a needy science guy, I am truly amazed...no actually banging my head against a wall at some of your comments.

I mean the difference between aerosols and water droplets is an arbitrary 5um (I think, don't quote me on that), but still liquid droplets, so to me it seems like arguing about the same thing just whether one is just a wee bit smaller than the other.

Seriously dude, did you just type that...one is 3um and the other is 5+um..... if you scale down to that size it's like saying a car is just a wee bit smaller than a train.

[cz515]

i know right,
I used to talk to anyone who would listen at the supermarket about the dehumanising ogliarcs and government coverups.
How times have changed. Nowadays i carry a strong uv light everywhere i go and rub strong household disinfectant all over my face and chest.
Used to chat up the checkout chick, but now she’s just another reptilian who wants to rip of my mask and lay her eggs in my mouth. Now i just avoid eye contact and run as fast as i can to my car and lock the doors.

Nicely put.

A few years ago I used to work in an Australian university, and saw plenty of times big giant signs placed on equipment saying its out of order, you would still get soo many students take the sign off, try to use the equipment, so when it doesn't work, complain to staff that it doesn't work.

And I thought this were mad back then

[Die Judicii]

The reality is that it is like putting up a chain link fence to stop mosquitos in your yard..

WOW,,,, how times change.

Very early in this pandemic I posted exactly the same point with the exception that I said a 3 strand barb wire fence to stop flies,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
And if I remember correctly I was hoo hooed for saying so.

[bladeracer]

Something I haven't seen mentioned is reusing masks. I see masks hung all over the place, in the open, on door knobs, indicator stalks and gear shifters, soaking up all the fresh air. They get grabbed to duck into a shop, then go back on their convenient hook to soak up more fresh air. Some must be getting used dozens of times before they're too tatty and get tossed on the side of the road. I suspect that reusing these things without sterilizing them each time might well be worse than not wearing one at all. Put one on inside out and you're sucking whatever detritus was on the outside straight into your lungs. I see people wearing their mask hooked over one ear, hanging loosely, gathering whatever airborne germs are floating by, then fixed across the face when needed, trapping those germs inside. People clearly have no concept behind the reasons for wearing them, or how they're designed to function.

[disco stu]

Going back to disco, your original question is quite valid, and yes it raises a lot of questions, but I would like to reiterate what I said before, every little bit we do can help slow down the spread. Furthermore I have never found a surgical mask that allows zero air to pass through its material. Otherwise there would be a suffocation hazard warning on it.

Secondly as a needy science guy, I am truly amazed...no actually banging my head against a wall at some of your comments.

I mean the difference between aerosols and water droplets is an arbitrary 5um (I think, don't quote me on that), but still liquid droplets, so to me it seems like arguing about the same thing just whether one is just a wee bit smaller than the other.

Seriously dude, did you just type that...one is 3um and the other is 5+um..... if you scale down to that size it's like saying a car is just a wee bit smaller than a train.

I've read in a few places now that 5um is the cutoff between them. Meaning 5.01um would be droplet, 4.9um would be aerosol, if what I've read is correct. I'm happy to be corrected if that is wrong, but that is what I meant by a wee bit smaller. By what I was saying I was actually trying to defend the position you were taking on the droplet vs aerosol thing.

Not sure what else I've said that has you banging your head against the wall, but you obviously disagree with some things I've said, but haven't really attempted to prove me wrong. And that is what I'm looking for.

Not sure on the masks you've worn, but in multiple brands I've tried if it sucks tight to your face (or you seal it there with your hands) it is really hard to breathe through (the ease of breathing through them that you find could actually be the leakage, or they could be easier to breathe through). I never stated the material allows zero flow through it. My wife even bought a few with 2.5um inserts that go in them, so hard to breathe through that I suspect that they wouldn't filter anything given the fact the mask isn't sealed around the rest of it so the air would take the path of least resistance. But what I was getting at was questioning how much goes through, with my hypotheses that not much actually goes through the material (given normal fluid flow) and then wanting to see if I was correct or incorrect.

You feel that I'm wrong, which I'm more than happy with, but you and I are both guessing without something to back up our positions, and that is what I'm looking for. The difference between me and everyone else that has commented seems to be that everyone else is "they must have studied this, so they must work" (abridging a comment) and I'm saying "have they studied this, or are they assuming they work?"

At no point have I said we shouldn't wear masks or they don't work, and not what I was setting out to do. I found it surprising that no one had addressed the leakage aspect (the air takes the path of least resistance) that is well known, and then looked at that. Since starting this thread I've find some answers which I have summarised already and pointed out where I was wrong.

And I agree that if something makes even a small difference then it may well be worth doing. But that doesn't mean I can't look into things and understand if they do work, and how.

[wanneroo]

Something I haven't seen mentioned is reusing masks. I see masks hung all over the place, in the open, on door knobs, indicator stalks and gear shifters, soaking up all the fresh air. They get grabbed to duck into a shop, then go back on their convenient hook to soak up more fresh air. Some must be getting used dozens of times before they're too tatty and get tossed on the side of the road. I suspect that reusing these things without sterilizing them each time might well be worse than not wearing one at all. Put one on inside out and you're sucking whatever detritus was on the outside straight into your lungs. I see people wearing their mask hooked over one ear, hanging loosely, gathering whatever airborne germs are floating by, then fixed across the face when needed, trapping those germs inside. People clearly have no concept behind the reasons for wearing them, or how they're designed to function.

No it's just a statement more than anything practical. People plugged into the Matrix don't question anything.

We ran into this issue with these city slickers fleeing to our area and out on our trails in the woods throwing their nasty blue masks everywhere. Wearing a mask in the woods to start with is retarded, throwing it on the ground is worse.

Plus most of these blue masks are made in China from God knows what.

[cz515]

Good points, and taken. I think I am over exaggerating.

Going back to disco, your original question is quite valid, and yes it raises a lot of questions, but I would like to reiterate what I said before, every little bit we do can help slow down the spread. Furthermore I have never found a surgical mask that allows zero air to pass through its material. Otherwise there would be a suffocation hazard warning on it.

Secondly as a needy science guy, I am truly amazed...no actually banging my head against a wall at some of your comments.

I mean the difference between aerosols and water droplets is an arbitrary 5um (I think, don't quote me on that), but still liquid droplets, so to me it seems like arguing about the same thing just whether one is just a wee bit smaller than the other.

Seriously dude, did you just type that...one is 3um and the other is 5+um..... if you scale down to that size it's like saying a car is just a wee bit smaller than a train.

I've read in a few places now that 5um is the cutoff between them. Meaning 5.01um would be droplet, 4.9um would be aerosol, if what I've read is correct. I'm happy to be corrected if that is wrong, but that is what I meant by a wee bit smaller. By what I was saying I was actually trying to defend the position you were taking on the droplet vs aerosol thing.

Not sure what else I've said that has you banging your head against the wall, but you obviously disagree with some things I've said, but haven't really attempted to prove me wrong. And that is what I'm looking for.

Not sure on the masks you've worn, but in multiple brands I've tried if it sucks tight to your face (or you seal it there with your hands) it is really hard to breathe through (the ease of breathing through them that you find could actually be the leakage, or they could be easier to breathe through). I never stated the material allows zero flow through it. My wife even bought a few with 2.5um inserts that go in them, so hard to breathe through that I suspect that they wouldn't filter anything given the fact the mask isn't sealed around the rest of it so the air would take the path of least resistance. But what I was getting at was questioning how much goes through, with my hypotheses that not much actually goes through the material (given normal fluid flow) and then wanting to see if I was correct or incorrect.

You feel that I'm wrong, which I'm more than happy with, but you and I are both guessing without something to back up our positions, and that is what I'm looking for. The difference between me and everyone else that has commented seems to be that everyone else is "they must have studied this, so they must work" (abridging a comment) and I'm saying "have they studied this, or are they assuming they work?"

At no point have I said we shouldn't wear masks or they don't work, and not what I was setting out to do. I found it surprising that no one had addressed the leakage aspect (the air takes the path of least resistance) that is well known, and then looked at that. Since starting this thread I've find some answers which I have summarised already and pointed out where I was wrong.

And I agree that if something makes even a small difference then it may well be worth doing. But that doesn't mean I can't look into things and understand if they do work, and how.

[disco stu]

We ran into this issue with these city slickers fleeing to our area and out on our trails in the woods throwing their nasty blue masks everywhere. Wearing a mask in the woods to start with is retarded, throwing it on the ground is worse.

Plus most of these blue masks are made in China from God knows what.

I hate seeing them left around the place, but to throw them on the ground in the bush is just criminal.

The weird smell out of some of the brands really makes me wonder what is in them. One brand smelt like spew I thought, made me feel crook

[disco stu]

[quote="cz515"]Good points, and taken. I think I am over exaggerating.

[quote]

Exaggerating don't see that on internet forums often

My reply wasn't meant as harsh in any way, so I hope it didn't come across that way. Just trying to explain my thinking, and I am liking hearing other peoples thoughts

[bladeracer]

Good points, and taken. I think I am over exaggerating.

Exaggerating don't see that on internet forums often

My reply wasn't meant as harsh in any way, so I hope it didn't come across that way. Just trying to explain my thinking, and I am liking hearing other peoples thoughts

I love that term "over exaggeration", makes it sound like exaggeration is fine, but too much exaggeration isn't

[cz515]

It's interwebs exaggeration is perfectly fine

[wanneroo]

I hate seeing them left around the place, but to throw them on the ground in the bush is just criminal.

The weird smell out of some of the brands really makes me wonder what is in them. One brand smelt like spew I thought, made me feel crook

Yes, we have this pristine rails to trail bike trail with hiking paths that connect to it and there are these stupid blue masks here and there on the ground. Locals don't wear masks in the woods I can tell you that. It was really bad in 2020 when we had so many city slickers fleeing the city and coming up here and I'd be out riding my bike or kayaking in the creek next to the trail and pass some dork in a canoe or walking alone in the woods with a blue mask on

I know one batch of masks here in the USA that came out of China they destroyed because the material in the middle layer had some sort of carcinogenic material that was about as bad as asbestos to breathe in. Yeah no thanks.

[mchughcb]

So 90% vaccinated, cases heading north, mask mandates in summer back in.

Really grasping at straws now.

[disco stu]

Yeah, first time wearing a mask again in like 1 week!

As long as they don't go back to making us wear them outside everywhere

[Oldbloke]

Yeah, first time wearing a mask again in like 1 week!

As long as they don't go back to making us wear them outside everywhere

Outside was never doing much, low risk.

"All indoors" does simplify it and therefore more likely to result in a high percentage of compliance.

[Communism_Is_Cancer]

So only the dirty bloods can eat at restaurants yet they still want them to wear muzzles in indoor settings? Looks like daddy government keeps moving the goal posts and the sheep love it.

[cz515]

Come on man. Don't be a silly Billy.

The goberment had to invent a new cronavirus first so the masses could be easily controlled.

[northdude]

well I'm not a mask expert but if I want protection from say paint fumes etc Id look at what a car painter wears and use something similar . Now if I'm thinking about deadly virus protection what does a virologist wear??

[cz515]

They wear a positive pressure full body covering

[Oldbloke]

They wear a positive pressure full body covering

Correct and in a lab have regularly tested extraction systems. Sometimes called fume cubards

[disco stu]

That'll go well down at your local woolworths

[Die Judicii]

They wear a positive pressure full body covering

And when oh when are the Guvmint gonna start handing them out ??????

[womble]

You want effective.
Have i got just the mask for you.
The original. And still the best imho.
The mask that cic recommends from the good old days.

[womble]

Who needs modern medicine.
You can keep your antibiotics, vaccines, disinfectants.
Couple of hours in that thing under the hot sun, soak up the uv rays and you will be fine