What is in the stalled convoy ???

General conversation and chit chat - The place for non-shooting specific topics. Introduce yourself here.

Re: What is in the stalled convoy ???

Post by Fionn » 11 Mar 2022, 6:32 pm

bladeracer wrote:
Fionn wrote:International law doesn't mean much if you are protected in your own country, at best its retrospect vengeance that or may not happen depending on who wins.


That's all any law is, a way to prosecute after the fact. Laws prevent nothing.


That's just nonsense, laws prevent a lot of things, they just become ineffective at both end of the scale when there is a consequence imbalance.
User avatar
Fionn
Sergeant
Sergeant
 
Posts: 625
Victoria

Re: What is in the stalled convoy ???

Post by cz515 » 12 Mar 2022, 8:41 pm

Oldbloke wrote:
Fionn wrote:An example of what the Ukraine's are doing to Russian convoy's. Taking out the front vehicles and then the rear making use of a choke point that the Russians point themselves in.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1501859876837986308

The Russians are displaying some very poor military tactics in the Ukraine.


The Russians are feeling the pain.

And clearly in breach of international law.

https://theconversation.com/ukraine-wha ... ans-178691



Umm rotfl. They must been reading from the same book the UK/US have written. Or y'all forgotten Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria. And the only country who attacked another with a nuclear weapon. And not just once but twice :twisted: :twisted:
When good men and women can’t speak the truth, when facts are inconvenient, when integrity and character no longer matter, when ego and self-preservation are more important than national security — then there is nothing left to stop the triumph of evil
User avatar
cz515
Warrant Officer C2
Warrant Officer C2
 
Posts: 1032
Victoria

Re: What is in the stalled convoy ???

Post by cz515 » 12 Mar 2022, 8:43 pm

womble wrote:If he survives we’ll see him at The Hague.


Me thinks he will be saying after you Tony Blair and George Bush.
When good men and women can’t speak the truth, when facts are inconvenient, when integrity and character no longer matter, when ego and self-preservation are more important than national security — then there is nothing left to stop the triumph of evil
User avatar
cz515
Warrant Officer C2
Warrant Officer C2
 
Posts: 1032
Victoria

Re: What is in the stalled convoy ???

Post by on_one_wheel » 12 Mar 2022, 9:28 pm

cz515 wrote:
womble wrote:If he survives we’ll see him at The Hague.


Me thinks he will be saying after you Tony Blair and George Bush.


Don't forget our illustrious Australian prime minister of the tine.John Howard
Gun control requires concentration and a steady hand
User avatar
on_one_wheel
Colonel
Colonel
 
Posts: 3561
South Australia

Re: What is in the stalled convoy ???

Post by bladeracer » 12 Mar 2022, 10:29 pm

Fionn wrote:
bladeracer wrote:
Fionn wrote:International law doesn't mean much if you are protected in your own country, at best its retrospect vengeance that or may not happen depending on who wins.


That's all any law is, a way to prosecute after the fact. Laws prevent nothing.


That's just nonsense, laws prevent a lot of things, they just become ineffective at both end of the scale when there is a consequence imbalance.


How does a law prevent anybody from breaking it if they choose to?
Practice Strict Gun Control - Precision Counts!
User avatar
bladeracer
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 12655
Victoria

Re: What is in the stalled convoy ???

Post by Fionn » 12 Mar 2022, 11:25 pm

bladeracer wrote:
How does a law prevent anybody from breaking it if they choose to?


Prevent refers to doing something before "it" happens, i.e. keep something from happening, it doesn't mean that it won't happen.
User avatar
Fionn
Sergeant
Sergeant
 
Posts: 625
Victoria

Re: What is in the stalled convoy ???

Post by bladeracer » 13 Mar 2022, 12:40 am

Fionn wrote:
bladeracer wrote:
How does a law prevent anybody from breaking it if they choose to?


Prevent refers to doing something before "it" happens, i.e. keep something from happening, it doesn't mean that it won't happen.


So how does homicide law prevent a homicide?
Practice Strict Gun Control - Precision Counts!
User avatar
bladeracer
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 12655
Victoria

Re: What is in the stalled convoy ???

Post by womble » 13 Mar 2022, 3:54 am

Likely be far more common if it was legal :)

Family Christmas get togethers would wipe out my entire gene pool.
I dream of a world where chickens can cross the road without having their motives questioned
womble
Lieutenant
Lieutenant
 
Posts: 2369
Victoria

Re: What is in the stalled convoy ???

Post by cz515 » 13 Mar 2022, 6:55 am

womble wrote:Likely be far more common if it was legal :)

Family Christmas get togethers would wipe out my entire gene pool.


You need to go slow on the drinking mate
When good men and women can’t speak the truth, when facts are inconvenient, when integrity and character no longer matter, when ego and self-preservation are more important than national security — then there is nothing left to stop the triumph of evil
User avatar
cz515
Warrant Officer C2
Warrant Officer C2
 
Posts: 1032
Victoria

Re: What is in the stalled convoy ???

Post by Oldbloke » 13 Mar 2022, 7:50 am

bladeracer wrote:
Fionn wrote:
bladeracer wrote:
How does a law prevent anybody from breaking it if they choose to?


Prevent refers to doing something before "it" happens, i.e. keep something from happening, it doesn't mean that it won't happen.


So how does homicide law prevent a homicide?


Well, some think twice, and consider the penalty, some just do it anyway.
The greatest invention in the history of man is beer.
https://youtu.be/2v3QrUvYj-Y
Member. SFFP, Shooters Union.
SSAA, the powerful gun lobby. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Hunt safe.
User avatar
Oldbloke
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 11192
Victoria

Re: What is in the stalled convoy ???

Post by bladeracer » 13 Mar 2022, 10:24 am

Oldbloke wrote:
bladeracer wrote:
Fionn wrote:
bladeracer wrote:
How does a law prevent anybody from breaking it if they choose to?


Prevent refers to doing something before "it" happens, i.e. keep something from happening, it doesn't mean that it won't happen.


So how does homicide law prevent a homicide?


Well, some think twice, and consider the penalty, some just do it anyway.


That's a person weighing the ramifications of doing something. If he decides to do it no law is going to stop him.

Compliance with laws is done voluntarily by people. Laws are just words written on paper. They have zero ability to prevent any crime from happening. If laws prevented crime, we wouldn't have any crime.
Practice Strict Gun Control - Precision Counts!
User avatar
bladeracer
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 12655
Victoria

Re: What is in the stalled convoy ???

Post by Oldbloke » 13 Mar 2022, 1:06 pm

BR. I thought that went without saying. They are just deterrent.
The greatest invention in the history of man is beer.
https://youtu.be/2v3QrUvYj-Y
Member. SFFP, Shooters Union.
SSAA, the powerful gun lobby. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Hunt safe.
User avatar
Oldbloke
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 11192
Victoria

Re: What is in the stalled convoy ???

Post by bladeracer » 13 Mar 2022, 1:22 pm

Oldbloke wrote:BR. I thought that went without saying. They are just deterrent.


I thought it goes without needing to be said also, but Fionn, our resident legal scholar believes otherwise :-)
"That's just nonsense, laws prevent a lot of things..."

Laws are rules that the law-abiding agree to comply with, primarily because it just makes life easier for everybody, you are generally treated better as a person in your daily endeavours when you are law-abiding (or appear to be so). Sometimes they have an idea, but determine that there might be consequences (some legal, some moral, some personal, some painful) to carrying through on it so they decide otherwise. Criminals don't care what laws are written as they understand that they are just words on paper. No law has ever prevented a crime from happening, and no law ever will prevent a crime. They merely allow us to prosecute the person that broke the law, after they broke it.
Practice Strict Gun Control - Precision Counts!
User avatar
bladeracer
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 12655
Victoria

Re: What is in the stalled convoy ???

Post by Fionn » 14 Mar 2022, 1:44 pm

bladeracer wrote:So how does homicide law prevent a homicide?


By making it against the law.

I suggest you read what I posted before a bit more carefully,

Fionn wrote:Prevent refers to doing something before "it" happens, i.e. keep something from happening, it doesn't mean that it won't happen.
User avatar
Fionn
Sergeant
Sergeant
 
Posts: 625
Victoria

Re: What is in the stalled convoy ???

Post by bladeracer » 14 Mar 2022, 2:17 pm

Fionn wrote:
bladeracer wrote:So how does homicide law prevent a homicide?


By making it against the law.

I suggest you read what I posted before a bit more carefully,

Fionn wrote:Prevent refers to doing something before "it" happens, i.e. keep something from happening, it doesn't mean that it won't happen.


I could read it a thousand times and it always says the same thing.
How does a written document _prevent_ any crime from occurring?
How would it if it people didn't voluntarily comply with that written law?
Criminals couldn't care less what laws are written, they don't apply to them.

Making something illegal does not make it go away like magic. It still exists and it still happens, the law merely gives us some means of punishing those that refuse to comply with it - after the fact.

Homicide and assault has been illegal across virtually the entire planet for millennia, yet it still happens. No law has ever prevented it from happening. The closest we can get to preventing homicide and assault is to have somebody on the scene, at the precise time, to physically prevent the crime from occurring, and that has nothing at all to do with written laws.
Practice Strict Gun Control - Precision Counts!
User avatar
bladeracer
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 12655
Victoria

Re: What is in the stalled convoy ???

Post by Bugman » 14 Mar 2022, 3:27 pm

bladeracer wrote:
Fionn wrote:
bladeracer wrote:So how does homicide law prevent a homicide?


By making it against the law.

I suggest you read what I posted before a bit more carefully,

Fionn wrote:Prevent refers to doing something before "it" happens, i.e. keep something from happening, it doesn't mean that it won't happen.


I could read it a thousand times and it always says the same thing.
How does a written document _prevent_ any crime from occurring?
How would it if it people didn't voluntarily comply with that written law?



Criminals couldn't care less what laws are written, they don't apply to them.

Making something illegal does not make it go away like magic. It still exists and it still happens, the law merely gives us some means of punishing those that refuse to comply with it - after the fact.

Homicide and assault has been illegal across virtually the entire planet for millennia, yet it still happens. No law has ever prevented it from happening. The closest we can get to preventing homicide and assault is to have somebody on the scene, at the precise time, to physically prevent the crime from occurring, and that has nothing at all to do with written laws.


Must agree, BR, that does sound very plausible.
User avatar
Bugman
Warrant Officer C2
Warrant Officer C2
 
Posts: 1071
New South Wales

Re: What is in the stalled convoy ???

Post by northdude » 14 Mar 2022, 3:43 pm

I bet everyone here has broken the law at some stage and as br said words on a piece of paper didn't stop you...
22 hornets and most things 6.5
northdude
Staff Sergeant
Staff Sergeant
 
Posts: 834
New Zealand

Re: What is in the stalled convoy ???

Post by Oldbloke » 14 Mar 2022, 4:45 pm

Ummm, I think just a tad off topic. Lol
The greatest invention in the history of man is beer.
https://youtu.be/2v3QrUvYj-Y
Member. SFFP, Shooters Union.
SSAA, the powerful gun lobby. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Hunt safe.
User avatar
Oldbloke
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 11192
Victoria

Re: What is in the stalled convoy ???

Post by Fionn » 14 Mar 2022, 6:36 pm

bladeracer wrote:
Fionn wrote:
bladeracer wrote:So how does homicide law prevent a homicide?


By making it against the law.

I suggest you read what I posted before a bit more carefully,

Fionn wrote:Prevent refers to doing something before "it" happens, i.e. keep something from happening, it doesn't mean that it won't happen.


I could read it a thousand times and it always says the same thing.
How does a written document _prevent_ any crime from occurring?
How would it if it people didn't voluntarily comply with that written law?
Criminals couldn't care less what laws are written, they don't apply to them.

Making something illegal does not make it go away like magic. It still exists and it still happens, the law merely gives us some means of punishing those that refuse to comply with it - after the fact.

Homicide and assault has been illegal across virtually the entire planet for millennia, yet it still happens. No law has ever prevented it from happening. The closest we can get to preventing homicide and assault is to have somebody on the scene, at the precise time, to physically prevent the crime from occurring, and that has nothing at all to do with written laws.


You have a very simplistic and narrow understanding of what “prevent” means and seem to conflate that it applies only physically.

Laws don’t prevent formal deviance, as laws aren’t physical barriers, laws are social constructs and are contingent and variable.

As laws are social constructs, they prevent a lot of crimes as most of society accepts them, thus when a law says you can’t sell alcohol to someone under 18 (as an example) it prevents most of society from selling alcohol to someone under 18 as they agree with and want to abide by the social construct, even if they don’t personally agree with the law and thus the law has prevented most people from selling alcohol to someone under 18 as they wish to live in a society with these agreed social constructs.

The prosecution and punishment is given to the deviant after the fact as we don't have "precogs".
User avatar
Fionn
Sergeant
Sergeant
 
Posts: 625
Victoria

Re: What is in the stalled convoy ???

Post by bladeracer » 14 Mar 2022, 6:49 pm

Fionn wrote:You have a very simplistic and narrow understanding of what “prevent” means and seem to conflate that it applies only physically.

Laws don’t prevent formal deviance, as laws aren’t physical barriers, laws are social constructs and are contingent and variable.

As laws are social constructs, they prevent a lot of crimes as most of society accepts them, thus when a law says you can’t sell alcohol to someone under 18 (as an example) it prevents most of society from selling alcohol to someone under 18 as they agree with and want to abide by the social construct, even if they don’t personally agree with the law and thus the law has prevented most people from selling alcohol to someone under 18 as they wish to live in a society with these agreed social constructs.

The prosecution and punishment is given to the deviant after the fact as we don't have "precogs".


My understanding is the same as Police use when they take firearms off us to "prevent" firearm violence, and fine us for speeding, and is the same as the view the media has about crime prevention. If Police and media had the same view as yourself they would stop claiming "preventing crime" is the reason for coming up with all these new laws every year.

A very large part of society doesn't need to be told not to do stupid things, like supplying drugs and alcohol to people that shouldn't have them, we don't need laws for that.
Practice Strict Gun Control - Precision Counts!
User avatar
bladeracer
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 12655
Victoria

Re: What is in the stalled convoy ???

Post by Fionn » 14 Mar 2022, 7:34 pm

bladeracer wrote:My understanding is the same as Police use when they take firearms off us to "prevent" firearm violence, and fine us for speeding, and is the same as the view the media has about crime prevention. If Police and media had the same view as yourself they would stop claiming "preventing crime" is the reason for coming up with all these new laws every year.


You just gave examples of laws that prevent crimes, but you claimed before laws didn't? :unknown:

Make up your mind. :roll:

bladeracer wrote:A very large part of society doesn't need to be told not to do stupid things, like supplying drugs and alcohol to people that shouldn't have them, we don't need laws for that.


Where is this large part of society? we live in a democracy if a large group of people agreed with you the laws would be changed (or removed), but they haven't been,

Are you sure you're not living in a echo chamber!
User avatar
Fionn
Sergeant
Sergeant
 
Posts: 625
Victoria

Re: What is in the stalled convoy ???

Post by bladeracer » 14 Mar 2022, 7:43 pm

Fionn wrote:
bladeracer wrote:My understanding is the same as Police use when they take firearms off us to "prevent" firearm violence, and fine us for speeding, and is the same as the view the media has about crime prevention. If Police and media had the same view as yourself they would stop claiming "preventing crime" is the reason for coming up with all these new laws every year.


You just gave examples of laws that prevent crimes, but you claimed before laws didn't? :unknown:

Make up your mind. :roll:

bladeracer wrote:A very large part of society doesn't need to be told not to do stupid things, like supplying drugs and alcohol to people that shouldn't have them, we don't need laws for that.


Where is this large part of society? we live in a democracy if a large group of people agreed with you the laws would be changed (or removed), but they haven't been,

Are you sure you're not living in a echo chamber!


Which laws did I give examples of that prevent any crimes? The first is action against people that have not committed any crimes, and are never likely to commit any crimes, the second is fining people that have already committed crimes. Neither prevent any crimes. In the second case the punishments are very often, weeks, months, even years after the act occurred so how can they claim anybody was safer?

We do not live in a democracy, our government is swayed to whichever direction they feel they can garner the most power - regardless of what the people demand by their votes.
Practice Strict Gun Control - Precision Counts!
User avatar
bladeracer
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 12655
Victoria

Re: What is in the stalled convoy ???

Post by Fionn » 14 Mar 2022, 8:22 pm

bladeracer wrote:Which laws did I give examples of that prevent any crimes? The first is action against people that have not committed any crimes, and are never likely to commit any crimes, the second is fining people that have already committed crimes.


You don't have to commit a crime for the law to be applied, removing your firearms prevents you committing homicide by firearm. Pretty hard to do when the police took your firearms.

The second, I agree its fining people who have committed an offence, the purpose of the fining is to prevent future offences of that nature. Because some people don't listen when told something is against the law, punishment is a far better motivator and a because a monetary penalty doesn't work with everyone they introduced a point system leading to licence loss.

bladeracer wrote: Neither prevent any crimes. In the second case the punishments are very often, weeks, months, even years after the act occurred so how can they claim anybody was safer?


But its still prevents a crime, because after a time you lose the right to drive on our roads.

bladeracer wrote:We do not live in a democracy, our government is swayed to whichever direction they feel they can garner the most power - regardless of what the people demand by their votes.


That's pretty much what a democracy means.
User avatar
Fionn
Sergeant
Sergeant
 
Posts: 625
Victoria

Re: What is in the stalled convoy ???

Post by bladeracer » 14 Mar 2022, 8:44 pm

Fionn wrote:
bladeracer wrote:Which laws did I give examples of that prevent any crimes? The first is action against people that have not committed any crimes, and are never likely to commit any crimes, the second is fining people that have already committed crimes.


You don't have to commit a crime for the law to be applied, removing your firearms prevents you committing homicide by firearm. Pretty hard to do when the police took your firearms.

The second, I agree its fining people who have committed an offence, the purpose of the fining is to prevent future offences of that nature. Because some people don't listen when told something is against the law, punishment is a far better motivator and a because a monetary penalty doesn't work with everyone they introduced a point system leading to licence loss.

bladeracer wrote: Neither prevent any crimes. In the second case the punishments are very often, weeks, months, even years after the act occurred so how can they claim anybody was safer?


But its still prevents a crime, because after a time you lose the right to drive on our roads.

bladeracer wrote:We do not live in a democracy, our government is swayed to whichever direction they feel they can garner the most power - regardless of what the people demand by their votes.


That's pretty much what a democracy means.


So you actually agree with the authorities that people with lawful access to firearms are a threat to public safety?
You do understand that most, virtually all firearms violence is committed by people that have zero interest in legally acquiring firearms?
Laws "prevent" the law-abiding from committing crimes...that they're very unlikely to ever consider committing, they have no effect at all on criminals.

So you agree then that a law to prevent speeding doesn't prevent speeding. It is purely a retaliatory action against somebody that already committed the crime, thus it did not prevent it. It _might_ prevent the same person from committing the same crime again, despite more than a century of road law evidence that it won't.

You only lose the right to lawfully drive on our roads, thus it only applies to the law-abiding...
I have known people that have never owned a driver's licence because they have zero regard for the law requiring it. They get fined and banned from applying for a driver's licence...that they have no interest in ever applying for. I had an apprentice that was an alcoholic as a teen, he was banned for applying for his licence (when he was old enough to do so) for years due to his constantly riding his dirtbikes on the roads to go and get alcohol. Not the vaguest interest in getting a licence at all.

And you agree that our democratic government panders to where the power is, regardless of the people's wants, and use that as the reasoning as to why some of our laws have never been repealed despite people asking for it?
Practice Strict Gun Control - Precision Counts!
User avatar
bladeracer
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 12655
Victoria

Re: What is in the stalled convoy ???

Post by animalpest » 14 Mar 2022, 9:12 pm

Soooo....what's in the stalled convoy?
Professional shooter and trapper
Trainer and consultant
animalpest
Warrant Officer C2
Warrant Officer C2
 
Posts: 1025
Western Australia

Re: What is in the stalled convoy ???

Post by Fionn » 14 Mar 2022, 9:15 pm

bladeracer wrote:So you actually agree with the authorities that people with lawful access to firearms are a threat to public safety?


I agree they absolutely can be a threat to public safety.

bladeracer wrote:You do understand that most, virtually all firearms violence is committed by people that have zero interest in legally acquiring firearms?
Laws "prevent" the law-abiding from committing crimes...that they're very unlikely to ever consider committing, they have no effect at all on criminals.


10 -20% of all homicides in Australia are committed by licenced firearms owners

In 16 mass shootings in Australia and New Zealand between 1987 and 2014, 135 people died. Most of the victims – 55% – were shot by previously law-abiding, licensed gun owners using legally held firearms.

bladeracer wrote:So you agree then that a law to prevent speeding doesn't prevent speeding. It is purely a retaliatory action against somebody that already committed the crime, thus it did not prevent it. It _might_ prevent the same person from committing the same crime again, despite more than a century of road law evidence that it won't.


No it serves both functions.

bladeracer wrote:You only lose the right to lawfully drive on our roads, thus it only applies to the law-abiding...


No it applies to everybody equally


bladeracer wrote:I have known people that have never owned a driver's licence because they have zero regard for the law requiring it. They get fined and banned from applying for a driver's licence...that they have no interest in ever applying for. I had an apprentice that was an alcoholic as a teen, he was banned for applying for his licence (when he was old enough to do so) for years due to his constantly riding his dirtbikes on the roads to go and get alcohol. Not the vaguest interest in getting a licence at all.


That's maybe the echo chamber I mentioned before..

bladeracer wrote:And you agree that our democratic government panders to where the power is, regardless of the people's wants, and use that as the reasoning as to why some of our laws have never been repealed despite people asking for it?


Yep, democracy at work, isn't a fine thing.
User avatar
Fionn
Sergeant
Sergeant
 
Posts: 625
Victoria

Re: What is in the stalled convoy ???

Post by Die Judicii » 14 Mar 2022, 9:17 pm

BR,,,,,, > :thumbsup:

Is it about this point of time that we usher in (maybe to stand in in place of all written laws) the TV show "Person of Interest" ,,,,, :allegedly: :sarcasm:
I do not fear death itself... Only its inopportune timing!
I've come to realize that,,,,, the two most loving, loyal, and trustworthy females in my entire life were both canines.
User avatar
Die Judicii
Colonel
Colonel
 
Posts: 3706
Queensland

Re: What is in the stalled convoy ???

Post by bladeracer » 14 Mar 2022, 9:52 pm

Die Judicii wrote:BR,,,,,, > :thumbsup:

Is it about this point of time that we usher in (maybe to stand in in place of all written laws) the TV show "Person of Interest" ,,,,, :allegedly: :sarcasm:


I don't know anything about TV shows, unless they were made before about 2000 :-)
Practice Strict Gun Control - Precision Counts!
User avatar
bladeracer
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 12655
Victoria

Previous

Back to top
 
Return to Off topic - General conversation