When is,,, "enough is enough"

[mchughcb]

Germany is confident? I read that as Germany imposes sanctions and wants to get its energy supply from somewhere else. Russia says you want, you pay no problems. You don't want then you don't pay, no problems.

Except its going to be massive problems.

https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/other/ge ... 545e557f76

[mchughcb]

Roger Waters is on the banned RT.

https://youtu.be/AOj9faTHQpM

[cz515]

Russia has cut its gas supply to 20% of capacity. Your msn article says.

What no one is saying is that even at 20% they still avidly earning about the same as they were eating wren supplying full capacity. The old supply and demand effect on prices.

I don't think Russian economy is crying too much

[mickb]

G'day CZ

I have to admit to being a little conflicted on the subject of free speech.

I heard a quote from Salman Rushdie on telly earlier; "If you believe in the value of free speech, you also have to believe in the value of speech you don't like."

Trouble is, where do you draw the line?
Do we allow Nazis to preach their ideological spite in the name of freedom of speech?

Do we allow IS to preach their twisted misinterpretation of Islam?

The case in Skokie Illinois in 1977 is one example that sticks in my mind as going too far in the name of free speech.
I do however accept the argument of precedent.
https://www.aclu.org/issues/free-speech ... ghts-nazis

We plainly have to draw that line somewhere, but wherever we do, someone's going to be pissed off.

Who is the final arbiter of what can and can't be said?

Valid question. One viewpoint is if you consider human history is 99% oppressive regimes who almost always control speech, free speech my be worth the risk of a few fruitcake groups having a say. Its only the current 31 x 1st world countries who achieved what we would call political and financial freedom for the firs time in history. The largest ''hate groups'' have always been bad governments, 150+ crap countries in the 2nd and 3rd world will attest to that right now.

We hit some magical formula for freedom for the first time ever and if speaking freely to a degree was part of it( whether its truly free is up to debate) Id rarher not mess with it.

Also in my experience fruitcake or hate groups dont do well in a well fed happy society and the issue is self managed. Fruitcakes either need poor, starved or desperate people, or serious backing or they dont get much traction.

If they are doing real damage Im less concerned with their nature of their speeches than the general state of our culture or where their money is coming from.

[mchughcb]

Correct.

[Lazarus]

G'day mickb

I have to agree with that, in the main.

My worry though, is that we're at a point in history where the loony fringe dwellers no longer need the power of a government behind them to spread their lunacy planet wide.
It also seems there's a multitude of others out there just gagging for their next dose of outrage.

Now that virtually everyone in 1st and a significant number in 3rd world countries have a smart phone, all they need is access to the nearest tower and they have a potentially world wide audience.

"Also in my experience fruitcake or hate groups dont do well in a well fed happy society and the issue is self managed. Fruitcakes either need poor, starved or desperate people, or serious backing or they dont get much traction."

Here I have to disagree.

A case in point is the Trump phenomenon.
I've never seen people in this country fight over Australian politics the way they do over a politician on the other side of the planet for whom they can't even vote.

This is is even dividing families, I have friends who no longer speak to me because I've expressed my disdain for the clown's "alternative facts". One hung up on me after asking what I thought of him and I answered that he was stirling entertainment value but a total dumpster fire in every other respect.

The situation in the US is again the perfect example.
They are still the richest, most well fed country in history, yet the division sown by Trump with his alternative facts and his damnation of the media (mainly for pointing out his innumerable flaws) has them at each other's throats.

Part of the problem in such "happy, well fed" countries as ours and the US is the ever widening gap between rich and poor.

""The richest 1% of Australians owns the same wealth as the bottom 60%. Australia's richest person owns more than the bottom 10% of the population combined (2.27 million people) and the nine richest individuals have a net worth of US $54.8 billion, more than the bottom 20% (4.54 million people).""
https://www.oxfam.org.au/what-we-do/eco ... resources/


It's the precedent factor that gives me pause.
If we ban nutjob A from spreading divisive bile, like Trump does, then that creates a precedent for banning you or me.
It seems the choice is binary, we let the loons run free or live in China or Russia.

[mchughcb]

Well had to get the ole Trump off your chest and people hang upon you. That seems pretty divisive to me.

Seems to me you are suffering Trump Derangement Syndrome. Does Trump GAF, the guy was loaded before he went into politics and is quite comfortable leaving it.

[on_one_wheel]

Funny how people lap up the media's "option" of politicians without doing their own homework.
Such is the power of Rupid Murdoch.

For example, remember the outcry about Trump building the wall?
Funny how Bidden is full steam ahead with it and nobody is outraged.

I prefer not to let the media sway my opinion, I'd rather make my own mind up rather than bending to the agendas of the world's most influential "elite"

I believe there's also a vested interest in keeping society divided.

[Lazarus]

@ on one wheel.
I hadn't heard about the Biden administration continuing the wall, neither does it strike me as strange that they are.
A significant proportion of the population want it.
In this instance they're whining about something they'd have applauded if it was the Republicans doing it.

What I do find amusing though is the reactions from those who called for it the loudest. He was criticised by the right for calling a halt to it, now they're criticising him for doing what they want.
That's the deliberate division I mentioned above, instead of being open minded enough to give any credit at all, they merely see it as another opportunity to sow discontent.

As to letting the Murdoch media et al form my opinions of anything, that would be difficult as I rarely take anything they spout at face value.
I do read their output, not to would be as narrow minded as those who think the ABC is a nest of communists and disregard anything they say.

[Oldbloke]

@ on one wheel.
I hadn't heard about the Biden administration continuing the wall, neither does it strike me as strange that they are.
A significant proportion of the population want it.
In this instance they're whining about something they'd have applauded if it was the Republicans doing it.

What I do find amusing though is the reactions from those who called for it the loudest. He was criticised by the right for calling a halt to it, now they're criticising him for doing what they want.
That's the deliberate division I mentioned above, instead of being open minded enough to give any credit at all, they merely see it as another opportunity to sow discontent.

As to letting the Murdoch media et al form my opinions of anything, that would be difficult as I rarely take anything they spout at face value.
I do read their output, not to would be as narrow minded as those who think the ABC is a nest of communists and disregard anything they say.

The parties are just the same here. E.G. think back to Tony Abbot. He opposed every bill the ALP presented to parliament.

He didn't repeal any once he was elected though. Hypocrisy at its best.

[Lazarus]

G'day OB

Mate politicians are all the same, eh?

Labor was right behind the Coalition policies during the worst of the bat soup pox, now they use every opportunity to mention the deficit they inherited.
To their credit, they don't talk out of both sides of their mouths about it, they know they're vulnerable to the taint of hypocrisy if they do. The other mob are too far down their own bellybutton to care.

We had that Canavan loon saying that renewable energy was "the dole bludger of the energy sector" while backing ever larger subsidies for the fossil industries and cutting renewable subsidies.

Then Moronisson himself, 2 seconds out of office and telling his happy-clappy mates not to trust governments.

I think we need a different type of setup, all independents, nobody beholden to party dogma, every donation over $100 and all meetings with lobby groups on public record etc.
Very importantly in my mind, no bloody conscience votes.
They're not there to represent their conscience, or what their priest tells them, they're supposed to represent the people who gave them their ticket to the golden trough.

Never happen though, not while the junkies are in charge of the keys the the drug cupboard.

[Oldbloke]

G'day OB

Mate politicians are all the same, eh?

Labor was right behind the Coalition policies during the worst of the bat soup pox, now they use every opportunity to mention the deficit they inherited.
To their credit, they don't talk out of both sides of their mouths about it, they know they're vulnerable to the taint of hypocrisy if they do. The other mob are too far down their own bellybutton to care.

We had that Canavan loon saying that renewable energy was "the dole bludger of the energy sector" while backing ever larger subsidies for the fossil industries and cutting renewable subsidies.

Then Moronisson himself, 2 seconds out of office and telling his happy-clappy mates not to trust governments.

I think we need a different type of setup, all (or lots more) independents, nobody beholden to party dogma, every donation over $100 and all meetings with lobby groups on public record etc.
Very importantly in my mind, no bloody conscience votes.
They're not there to represent their conscience, or what their priest tells them, they're supposed to represent the people who gave them their ticket to the golden trough.

Never happen though, not while the junkies are in charge of the keys the the drug cupboard.

My oath.

[on_one_wheel]

@ on one wheel.
I hadn't heard about the Biden administration continuing the wall, neither does it strike me as strange that they are.
A significant proportion of the population want it.
In this instance they're whining about something they'd have applauded if it was the Republicans doing it.

What I do find amusing though is the reactions from those who called for it the loudest. He was criticised by the right for calling a halt to it, now they're criticising him for doing what they want.
That's the deliberate division I mentioned above, instead of being open minded enough to give any credit at all, they merely see it as another opportunity to sow discontent.

As to letting the Murdoch media et al form my opinions of anything, that would be difficult as I rarely take anything they spout at face value.
I do read their output, not to would be as narrow minded as those who think the ABC is a nest of communists and disregard anything they say.

Perhaps it's simply a case of politicians mostly can't do anything right in the media's eye simply because as you pointed out Lazarus, most folks are gagging for their next fix of outrage.
Social media and news thrive on it.

You don't have to look hard to read that Biden is full potato
I wouldn't be surprised if the exact opposite is true, it's easy to cherry pick someone's worst moments, string them together and submit it as proof, especially when they spend so much time under the spotlight.

[Lazarus]

We've talked a bit about sources.

I'll share one of mine for anyone interested.

https://www.criticalthreats.org/analysi ... august-13#

https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/36 ... 1cf64bd375

[mchughcb]

@ on one wheel.
I hadn't heard about the Biden administration continuing the wall, neither does it strike me as strange that they are.
A significant proportion of the population want it.
In this instance they're whining about something they'd have applauded if it was the Republicans doing it.

What I do find amusing though is the reactions from those who called for it the loudest. He was criticised by the right for calling a halt to it, now they're criticising him for doing what they want.
That's the deliberate division I mentioned above, instead of being open minded enough to give any credit at all, they merely see it as another opportunity to sow discontent.

As to letting the Murdoch media et al form my opinions of anything, that would be difficult as I rarely take anything they spout at face value.
I do read their output, not to would be as narrow minded as those who think the ABC is a nest of communists and disregard anything they say.

The parties are just the same here. E.G. think back to Tony Abbot. He opposed every bill the ALP presented to parliament.

He didn't repeal any once he was elected though. Hypocrisy at its best.

Cornpop seems to forget the minute Abbot got in he stopped the boats and changed the policy of the Kevin Rudd.
Went from 20,000 arriving a week to zero.
Must have been asleep during that one cornpop.

[on_one_wheel]

I prefer to get my information from tinfoil hat wearing conspiracy nuts like people with utube channels who have dozens of followers.
It's far more interesting and it keeps me busy preparing for the new world order.

[on_one_wheel]

I never had a problem with Tony Abbott.

Out of interest I googled "did Tony Abbott stop the boats"
Internet says,
Yes
No
No
Yes
Yes
No
No
No
Yes
Yes
Yes
Shopping for answers is so easy these days

[Oldbloke]

@ on one wheel.
I hadn't heard about the Biden administration continuing the wall, neither does it strike me as strange that they are.
A significant proportion of the population want it.
In this instance they're whining about something they'd have applauded if it was the Republicans doing it.

What I do find amusing though is the reactions from those who called for it the loudest. He was criticised by the right for calling a halt to it, now they're criticising him for doing what they want.
That's the deliberate division I mentioned above, instead of being open minded enough to give any credit at all, they merely see it as another opportunity to sow discontent.

As to letting the Murdoch media et al form my opinions of anything, that would be difficult as I rarely take anything they spout at face value.
I do read their output, not to would be as narrow minded as those who think the ABC is a nest of communists and disregard anything they say.

The parties are just the same here. E.G. think back to Tony Abbot. He opposed every bill the ALP presented to parliament.

He didn't repeal any once he was elected though. Hypocrisy at its best.

Cornpop seems to forget the minute Abbot got in he stopped the boats and changed the policy of the Kevin Rudd.
Went from 20,000 arriving a week to zero.
Must have been asleep during that one cornpop.

First. Try reading my posts. I never mentioned boat's.

Second. And IMO he is crap

Edit. To ensure full clarity. IMO he was the worst PM in the history of AU.

[on_one_wheel]

Poor old Abbott
What a time to be PM, when the revolving door was in full swing, we'd wake up to a new PM every few weeks.

[mickb]

G'day mickb

I have to agree with that, in the main.

My worry though, is that we're at a point in history where the loony fringe dwellers no longer need the power of a government behind them to spread their lunacy planet wide.
It also seems there's a multitude of others out there just gagging for their next dose of outrage.

Now that virtually everyone in 1st and a significant number in 3rd world countries have a smart phone, all they need is access to the nearest tower and they have a potentially world wide audience.

"Also in my experience fruitcake or hate groups dont do well in a well fed happy society and the issue is self managed. Fruitcakes either need poor, starved or desperate people, or serious backing or they dont get much traction."

Here I have to disagree.

A case in point is the Trump phenomenon.
I've never seen people in this country fight over Australian politics the way they do over a politician on the other side of the planet for whom they can't even vote.

mate that example proves my point. He was government level and massive money involved.

As you said yourself, even stupid Australians got involved, and only because the media was shoving it down our necks 24/7. Frankly anyone split over that issue needs to go back to the store they bought their smartphone and tell them the deal is off, I want my brain back.

[Lazarus]

Actually, this proves my point

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/dateline/ar ... /8ebxwmq5w

[mickb]

Looks like a media story about a whacko who went crazy. As to his 'manifesto' I reckon if it was mailed to every person in Australia and New zealand right now the net effect would be complaints about spam.

If you want literature or radical idealism by people with actual talent( aka to influence millions, not just kill a couple dozen) try the communist manifesto, Mein Kampf, Stalins works, in fact the autobiographies of about any dictator in history.

Most still available, the whackos have access and life goes on.

[Lazarus]

Looks like a media story about a whacko who went crazy. As to his 'manifesto' I reckon if it was mailed to every person in Australia and New zealand right now the net effect would be complaints about spam.

If you want literature or radical idealism by people with actual talent( aka to influence millions, not just kill a couple dozen) try the communist manifesto, Mein Kampf, Stalins works, in fact the autobiographies of about any dictator in history.

Most still available, the whackos have access and life goes on.

At the risk of belabouring a point you seem determined to not to get, I'll try to clarify it for you.

The report illustrates my point that one random, violent, far right fcktard can spread his poison, not by "mail to everyone in Australia" but by streaming his atrocities, via a smartphone, for fellow minded violent, far right fcktards around the world to record and and share.

I didn't mention his psychotic ramblings, because they're so cliche, the same uneducated bile and spite the far right has been spewing for a hundred years and little different to the "talented" nonsense you lauded.

[mickb]

Looks like a media story about a whacko who went crazy. As to his 'manifesto' I reckon if it was mailed to every person in Australia and New zealand right now the net effect would be complaints about spam.

If you want literature or radical idealism by people with actual talent( aka to influence millions, not just kill a couple dozen) try the communist manifesto, Mein Kampf, Stalins works, in fact the autobiographies of about any dictator in history.

Most still available, the whackos have access and life goes on.

At the risk of belabouring a point you seem determined to not to get, I'll try to clarify it for you.

The report illustrates my point that one random, violent, far right fcktard can spread his poison, not by "mail to everyone in Australia" but by streaming his atrocities, via a smartphone, for fellow minded violent, far right fcktards around the world to record and and share.

I didn't mention his psychotic ramblings, because they're so cliche, the same uneducated bile and spite the far right has been spewing for a hundred years and little different to the "talented" nonsense you lauded.

The point mate remains the same. Far greater 'poisonous rhetoric' is available in the common domain , and life goes on.

In fact wouldnt SBS and major outlets running stories like this spread his rhetoric 100,000x more than it would have anyway?

never lauded any of this rhetoric either, nice try though. just said the fellas had some talent, any world leader or influencer does. Unfortunately as I said 80% of governments end up using it the wrong way.

[Lazarus]

Looks like a media story about a whacko who went crazy. As to his 'manifesto' I reckon if it was mailed to every person in Australia and New zealand right now the net effect would be complaints about spam.

If you want literature or radical idealism by people with actual talent( aka to influence millions, not just kill a couple dozen) try the communist manifesto, Mein Kampf, Stalins works, in fact the autobiographies of about any dictator in history.

Most still available, the whackos have access and life goes on.

At the risk of belabouring a point you seem determined to not to get, I'll try to clarify it for you.

The report illustrates my point that one random, violent, far right fcktard can spread his poison, not by "mail to everyone in Australia" but by streaming his atrocities, via a smartphone, for fellow minded violent, far right fcktards around the world to record and and share.

I didn't mention his psychotic ramblings, because they're so cliche, the same uneducated bile and spite the far right has been spewing for a hundred years and little different to the "talented" nonsense you lauded.

The point mate remains the same. Far greater 'poisonous rhetoric' is available in the common domain , and life goes on.

In fact wouldnt SBS and major outlets running stories like this spread his rhetoric 100,000x more than it would have anyway?

never lauded any of this rhetoric either, nice try though. just said the fellas had some talent, any world leader or influencer does. Unfortunately as I said 80% of governments end up using it the wrong way.

Checkmate to the pigeon

[mickb]

Lazarus I was going to edit my post out but you got to it first. I dont think we disagreed on many points but the couple we did turned into semantics. Bravo for pulling out first, you were the better man by a few minutes I'm retiring from politics on the forums, my tin foil hat is tight enough as it is these days.

[on_one_wheel]

I didn't mention his psychotic ramblings, because they're so cliche, the same uneducated bile and spite the far right has been spewing for a hundred years and little different to the "talented" nonsense you lauded.

× Thousands of years of extremist psychotic ramblings

[brett1868]

Well things are going so great for Ukraine they are extending martial law and men of a less than fighting age can't leave and are being conscripted. This isn't going to end well.

https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/other/ze ... 9c22ce2f71

No different to the U.S drafting youngsters to fight in Vietnam and at least they're not using mercs or considering volunteers from Nth Korea.....

[mchughcb]

Well things are going so great for Ukraine they are extending martial law and men of a less than fighting age can't leave and are being conscripted. This isn't going to end well.

https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/other/ze ... 9c22ce2f71

No different to the U.S drafting youngsters to fight in Vietnam and at least they're not using mercs or considering volunteers from Nth Korea.....

That's absolutely right. Which is why the USA has been using private military contractors in Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria and wherever the USA has declared war and is on the ground for the last 20 years.

Just look at all that Western posturing, send US$58B+ in aid, but officially not one boot on the ground from NATO. Which doesn't make any sense, why does a NATO country half support a non NATO country. What's next, NATO steps into Serbia and bombs the Chinese Embassy? Oh wait.

Anyway, it doesn't matter Ukraine can keep shelling the biggest nuclear plant with NATO supplied ordinance while the wind is blowing the right way and contaminate Asia and Oceania and the EU will be happy.

[brett1868]

Imagine if all the Chinese migrants Victoria held a referendum to split from the state into their own republic which was then recognised by the CCP resulting in an invasion and war? This is the situation in Ukraine except it's Russia....