Blade might know / on one wheel perhaps?

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Blade might know / on one wheel perhaps?

Post by Blr243 » 19 Jun 2022, 8:00 pm

So I’m sitting hear thinking who do I ask ..... my new cf moto 500 cc quad makes more noise than my old 250 cc Honda as one might expect. I bought a dB killer silencer exhaust on eBay. It’s not a replacement muffler. It’s an add on ... so after unwrapping it I turn on the bike and push the unit up against the pipe and yes I’m happy significant volume reduction.... I’m not interested In increased performance or decreased performance or having a nice fat sound. This add on is strictly to scare game less when I’m in the field. A bit of research on the net suggests I’m not goin to harm my engine by fitting this unit. I’m not sure. I don’t know jack about engines. I have heard that too much air restriction ( as is the case with a very efficient sound killer design) can damage my engine or maybe it causes over heating ? I don’t know. Should I be worried ?
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Re: Blade might know / on one wheel perhaps?

Post by bladeracer » 19 Jun 2022, 8:08 pm

Blr243 wrote:So I’m sitting hear thinking who do I ask ..... my new cf moto 500 cc quad makes more noise than my old 250 cc Honda as one might expect. I bought a dB killer silencer exhaust on eBay. It’s not a replacement muffler. It’s an add on ... so after unwrapping it I turn on the bike and push the unit up against the pipe and yes I’m happy significant volume reduction.... I’m not interested In increased performance or decreased performance or having a nice fat sound. This add on is strictly to scare game less when I’m in the field. A bit of research on the net suggests I’m not goin to harm my engine by fitting this unit. I’m not sure. I don’t know jack about engines. I have heard that too much air restriction ( as is the case with a very efficient sound killer design) can damage my engine or maybe it causes over heating ? I don’t know. Should I be worried ?


I think the only concern would be over-heating. I Googled it but couldn't see if it's water-cooled, I assume it must be nowadays. I bought a CBR1000RR OEM muffler to put on the Ratbarrow to knock the noise down but never did get around to fitting it. Now I've bought an electric motor conversion for it instead.
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Re: Blade might know / on one wheel perhaps?

Post by on_one_wheel » 19 Jun 2022, 9:41 pm

I'm tickled pink that someone has considered my opinion potentially valuable :drinks:

When talking non computer controlled, carby 4 stroke engines while skipping some of the finer volumetric efficiency details.

Typically, when you go the other way (free flowing, noisy system) , without tuning the engine to suit, you run the risk of lean fuel / air ratio (F/A) which is created by the effect of improved scavenging of the exhaust gasses, with improved scavenging the cylinder gets a better change of fresh fuel and air with less residual gases from the previous stroke that contain less dense hot gases, unburned fuel, with reduced oxygen.
Lean conditions can be hard on pistons exhaust valves due to the increased combustion temperature.
In real world terms the improved scavenging effect would rarely cause an issue with factory tuned engines as they are tuned on the rich side (safe side) of the perfect F/A ratio to allow for atmospheric and fuel quality variations.
However to gain the full benefits of an exhaust upgrade a jet change is necessary.


Now...
Being that potentially your going the other way with an add on that restricts the flow of exhaust gasses, it's possible that you'll actually be running a little richer, due to the opposing effects
I seriously doubt that you'll even notice the difference in F/A ratio without measuring equipment with only an exhaust ad-on, even then I'd bet it was an extremely small change.
A richer F/A will see a decrease in performance, decrease in exhaust gas temperature, reduced fuel economy, black exhaust smoke, and at it's worst on the extreme end, plug fowling and piston ring washing causing increased wear to the piston, piston rings and bore. There's simply no way that will happen without messing with jets or having some kind of carburettor issue.
If your worried, pay attention to the odour and colour of the exhaust gasses, I doubt you'll notice anything but If you do, you could start getting technical and do an plug chop to read its colour.
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Re: Blade might know / on one wheel perhaps?

Post by on_one_wheel » 19 Jun 2022, 9:49 pm

bladeracer wrote:[ Now I've bought an electric motor conversion for it instead.


You have my attention.
E/V cars don't excite me yet but the Bike scene is a different story, I'm looking forward to watching that develop.
I'm waiting to see haw the Stark VARG goes, and the follow when the main players get the technology cranking :thumbsup:
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Re: Blade might know / on one wheel perhaps?

Post by bladeracer » 19 Jun 2022, 10:23 pm

on_one_wheel wrote:
bladeracer wrote:[ Now I've bought an electric motor conversion for it instead.


You have my attention.
E/V cars don't excite me yet but the Bike scene is a different story, I'm looking forward to watching that develop.
I'm waiting to see haw the Stark VARG goes, and the follow when the main players get the technology cranking :thumbsup:


I'm not especially into electric motors, we're just sick of trying to start petrol engines - battery works so much better :-)
A guy in Perth converted several motorcycles to electric that were pretty well done. Quite capable for round-town commuting.

Rose's brother has been looking for a ride-on mower project for an electric conversion, and I was given one a few weeks ago, an '88 Greenfields 12-30. A neighbour parked it a few years ago when he got Parkinsons. It looked pretty good, until we got it home :-) Under the rear end is very rusty, but we managed to get it completely stripped, and he's doing some mods on his blasting cabinet so we can clean up all the rust. He's already built a 2000-watt 48V motor setup to go into it (https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/283816723764). I'm not at all electrically-inclined, but he is, so I asked him to build a setup that we could easily hook up to various things for trials, the swingsaw, wood chipper, Ratbarrow and such, maybe even power the wheelbarrow wheel to help get loads of firewood up the hill :-) It'd be nice to set these all up and just have a 48V battery pack to plug into whichever gadget we want to run.

I have considered an E-bike to make bush work a bit easier, something I could throw a load on (like a deer carcass) and walk beside to get up some steep hills, maybe even a tricycle thing. Not sure how well it'll work in the clay we have around here though. A mate in Perth is into E-bikes, I found them neat but pretty heavy and poorly balanced.
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Re: Blade might know / on one wheel perhaps?

Post by Blr243 » 20 Jun 2022, 2:07 pm

Thanks a lot men. Recommend name change for on one wheel. Sounds too clever to be on one wheel doin 150 k down the highway drunk at 2 am
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Re: Blade might know / on one wheel perhaps?

Post by GQshayne » 20 Jun 2022, 7:47 pm

Your quad will run a Bosch EFI system I think, unless it is an old model, and only new to you. While it will not be a state of the art system, rather a more basic one, it will still have enough basic parameters to allow for your exhaust mods without any concern. That is my assumption anyway.

Also for your consideration, is that air flow is only one aspect of what you are trying to achieve. Materials used, their thickness, how they are mounted etc, will all have an effect on the noise produced. This will also apply to the intake, and the engine itself. Valve covers can be modified to reduce noise, as an example.
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Re: Blade might know / on one wheel perhaps?

Post by Blr243 » 20 Jun 2022, 7:50 pm

Yes it’s a Bosch efi 2021/ or 2022
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Re: Blade might know / on one wheel perhaps?

Post by bigrich » 21 Jun 2022, 4:31 am

on_one_wheel wrote:I'm tickled pink that someone has considered my opinion potentially valuable :drinks:

When talking non computer controlled, carby 4 stroke engines while skipping some of the finer volumetric efficiency details.

Typically, when you go the other way (free flowing, noisy system) , without tuning the engine to suit, you run the risk of lean fuel / air ratio (F/A) which is created by the effect of improved scavenging of the exhaust gasses, with improved scavenging the cylinder gets a better change of fresh fuel and air with less residual gases from the previous stroke that contain less dense hot gases, unburned fuel, with reduced oxygen.
Lean conditions can be hard on pistons exhaust valves due to the increased combustion temperature.
In real world terms the improved scavenging effect would rarely cause an issue with factory tuned engines as they are tuned on the rich side (safe side) of the perfect F/A ratio to allow for atmospheric and fuel quality variations.
However to gain the full benefits of an exhaust upgrade a jet change is necessary.


Now...
Being that potentially your going the other way with an add on that restricts the flow of exhaust gasses, it's possible that you'll actually be running a little richer, due to the opposing effects
I seriously doubt that you'll even notice the difference in F/A ratio without measuring equipment with only an exhaust ad-on, even then I'd bet it was an extremely small change.
A richer F/A will see a decrease in performance, decrease in exhaust gas temperature, reduced fuel economy, black exhaust smoke, and at it's worst on the extreme end, plug fowling and piston ring washing causing increased wear to the piston, piston rings and bore. There's simply no way that will happen without messing with jets or having some kind of carburettor issue.
If your worried, pay attention to the odour and colour of the exhaust gasses, I doubt you'll notice anything but If you do, you could start getting technical and do an plug chop to read its colour.


I agree. I used to build my own custom Holley carbs for my hot rod type stuff, and do a lot of my own tuning. Used to get it that close, on a chassis dyno I was maybe only one jet size out. Reading the plugs and exhaust colours was the secret. If all is correct, the ceramic insulator should be the colour of a cup of coffee. A light tan colour. A red/dark brown colour is rich and can wash the rings with too much fuel and damage the bore. White insulator with yellow electrode is lean, and pinging in the engine will cause damage. I think the assumption of restricting the exhaust will result in richening up the engine is correct :thumbsup:
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Re: Blade might know / on one wheel perhaps?

Post by GQshayne » 21 Jun 2022, 8:38 pm

bigrich wrote:
on_one_wheel wrote:I'm tickled pink that someone has considered my opinion potentially valuable :drinks:

When talking non computer controlled, carby 4 stroke engines while skipping some of the finer volumetric efficiency details.

Typically, when you go the other way (free flowing, noisy system) , without tuning the engine to suit, you run the risk of lean fuel / air ratio (F/A) which is created by the effect of improved scavenging of the exhaust gasses, with improved scavenging the cylinder gets a better change of fresh fuel and air with less residual gases from the previous stroke that contain less dense hot gases, unburned fuel, with reduced oxygen.
Lean conditions can be hard on pistons exhaust valves due to the increased combustion temperature.
In real world terms the improved scavenging effect would rarely cause an issue with factory tuned engines as they are tuned on the rich side (safe side) of the perfect F/A ratio to allow for atmospheric and fuel quality variations.
However to gain the full benefits of an exhaust upgrade a jet change is necessary.


Now...
Being that potentially your going the other way with an add on that restricts the flow of exhaust gasses, it's possible that you'll actually be running a little richer, due to the opposing effects
I seriously doubt that you'll even notice the difference in F/A ratio without measuring equipment with only an exhaust ad-on, even then I'd bet it was an extremely small change.
A richer F/A will see a decrease in performance, decrease in exhaust gas temperature, reduced fuel economy, black exhaust smoke, and at it's worst on the extreme end, plug fowling and piston ring washing causing increased wear to the piston, piston rings and bore. There's simply no way that will happen without messing with jets or having some kind of carburettor issue.
If your worried, pay attention to the odour and colour of the exhaust gasses, I doubt you'll notice anything but If you do, you could start getting technical and do an plug chop to read its colour.


I agree. I used to build my own custom Holley carbs for my hot rod type stuff, and do a lot of my own tuning. Used to get it that close, on a chassis dyno I was maybe only one jet size out. Reading the plugs and exhaust colours was the secret. If all is correct, the ceramic insulator should be the colour of a cup of coffee. A light tan colour. A red/dark brown colour is rich and can wash the rings with too much fuel and damage the bore. White insulator with yellow electrode is lean, and pinging in the engine will cause damage. I think the assumption of restricting the exhaust will result in richening up the engine is correct :thumbsup:


On a carby engine maybe so, but this is an EFI engine. It has an air flow meter and an oxygen sensor to adjust parameters accordingly.
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Re: Blade might know / on one wheel perhaps?

Post by bigrich » 22 Jun 2022, 4:45 am

GQshayne wrote:
bigrich wrote:
on_one_wheel wrote:I'm tickled pink that someone has considered my opinion potentially valuable :drinks:

When talking non computer controlled, carby 4 stroke engines while skipping some of the finer volumetric efficiency details.

Typically, when you go the other way (free flowing, noisy system) , without tuning the engine to suit, you run the risk of lean fuel / air ratio (F/A) which is created by the effect of improved scavenging of the exhaust gasses, with improved scavenging the cylinder gets a better change of fresh fuel and air with less residual gases from the previous stroke that contain less dense hot gases, unburned fuel, with reduced oxygen.
Lean conditions can be hard on pistons exhaust valves due to the increased combustion temperature.
In real world terms the improved scavenging effect would rarely cause an issue with factory tuned engines as they are tuned on the rich side (safe side) of the perfect F/A ratio to allow for atmospheric and fuel quality variations.
However to gain the full benefits of an exhaust upgrade a jet change is necessary.


Now...
Being that potentially your going the other way with an add on that restricts the flow of exhaust gasses, it's possible that you'll actually be running a little richer, due to the opposing effects
I seriously doubt that you'll even notice the difference in F/A ratio without measuring equipment with only an exhaust ad-on, even then I'd bet it was an extremely small change.
A richer F/A will see a decrease in performance, decrease in exhaust gas temperature, reduced fuel economy, black exhaust smoke, and at it's worst on the extreme end, plug fowling and piston ring washing causing increased wear to the piston, piston rings and bore. There's simply no way that will happen without messing with jets or having some kind of carburettor issue.
If your worried, pay attention to the odour and colour of the exhaust gasses, I doubt you'll notice anything but If you do, you could start getting technical and do an plug chop to read its colour.


I agree. I used to build my own custom Holley carbs for my hot rod type stuff, and do a lot of my own tuning. Used to get it that close, on a chassis dyno I was maybe only one jet size out. Reading the plugs and exhaust colours was the secret. If all is correct, the ceramic insulator should be the colour of a cup of coffee. A light tan colour. A red/dark brown colour is rich and can wash the rings with too much fuel and damage the bore. White insulator with yellow electrode is lean, and pinging in the engine will cause damage. I think the assumption of restricting the exhaust will result in richening up the engine is correct :thumbsup:


On a carby engine maybe so, but this is an EFI engine. It has an air flow meter and an oxygen sensor to adjust parameters accordingly.


Oh, I forgot that bit ;)
Even so, a plug check that everything is working as it should is cheap insurance :thumbsup:
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Re: Blade might know / on one wheel perhaps?

Post by Blr243 » 22 Jun 2022, 6:40 am

Plug check is looking at the state of the spark plug ? And what am I looking for ? Dirty plug ?
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Re: Blade might know / on one wheel perhaps?

Post by bigrich » 22 Jun 2022, 7:08 pm

Blr243 wrote:Plug check is looking at the state of the spark plug ? And what am I looking for ? Dirty plug ?


see my previous post regarding the colour of the ceramic ring around the electrode . it's a rough idicator of fuel richness/leaness :thumbsup:
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Re: Blade might know / on one wheel perhaps?

Post by GQshayne » 22 Jun 2022, 7:45 pm

Unfortunately it is not quite as useful as it was in the days of leaded petrol, but it is still one of the first things to look at on a petrol engine. Best way to understand what to look for would be to have a quick google.
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Re: Blade might know / on one wheel perhaps?

Post by on_one_wheel » 22 Jun 2022, 8:08 pm

Blr243 wrote:Thanks a lot men. Recommend name change for on one wheel. Sounds too clever to be on one wheel doin 150 k down the highway drunk at 2 am


:lol:
I wouldn't consider myself overly intelligent, I do have a few areas of interest, unfortunately one of those is definitely petrol fuelled adrenaline rushes.
With fuel prices being the way they are, I might look into knitting ...
Knitting my own bungee cord ... that'll be a rush :thumbsup:
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Re: Blade might know / on one wheel perhaps?

Post by Blr243 » 22 Jun 2022, 9:54 pm

Never done the bungee dive but tandem skydived a few times. Always scares the shoot out of me. Last time our chute was a tangled useless mess. Instructor cut it away and we used the other one
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Re: Blade might know / on one wheel perhaps?

Post by Blr243 » 22 Jun 2022, 9:56 pm

Now I’m i know what you means about plug and ceramic ring .. I will check that big time o my next hunt
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Re: Blade might know / on one wheel perhaps?

Post by cz515 » 22 Jun 2022, 10:21 pm

I think the quad bike muffle might be too small but many people use steel wool in mufflers to decrease noise in cars.

Anyway having run a varex branded muffler that had a flap on it to decrease noise. It would bring the level of the car very low, think a Harley bike going past and then a standard 4 cylinder. Anyway i found if i ran the engine low revs and low loads it was fine. But definitely felt like something bad it's going to happen if giving it the beans. So be careful on your quad
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Re: Blade might know / on one wheel perhaps?

Post by bladeracer » 22 Jun 2022, 11:15 pm

cz515 wrote:I think the quad bike muffle might be too small but many people use steel wool in mufflers to decrease noise in cars.

Anyway having run a varex branded muffler that had a flap on it to decrease noise. It would bring the level of the car very low, think a Harley bike going past and then a standard 4 cylinder. Anyway i found if i ran the engine low revs and low loads it was fine. But definitely felt like something bad it's going to happen if giving it the beans. So be careful on your quad


I used to make my own mufflers for my race bikes, I packed them with fibreglass.
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Re: Blade might know / on one wheel perhaps?

Post by GQshayne » 23 Jun 2022, 7:55 pm

Yes, and this is what I was referring to in my earlier post - you can reduce noise without reducing exhaust flow too much. A good quality muffler will do both, a cheap one may just restrict the engine too much.

A lot of noise is produced by other stuff besides the exhaust, so don't overlook that. However, a single cylinder 4 stroke makes a distinctive sound, and it travels a LONG way.
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Re: Blade might know / on one wheel perhaps?

Post by Blr243 » 24 Jun 2022, 7:46 pm

From dawn till dusk and then more in the dark with head torch spend all day on the quad getting it field ready and still stacks more to do
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Re: Blade might know / on one wheel perhaps?

Post by JohnV » 25 Jun 2022, 10:40 am

Your not racing it your just poking around quietly after game so give it a go , you can always take it off if it upsets the electronics but I doubt that will happen .
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Re: Blade might know / on one wheel perhaps?

Post by Blr243 » 25 Jun 2022, 7:05 pm

I’m setting it up with a relief valve and an adjustable tap. Exhaust gas comes out of the factory muffler and goes to a T piece firstly into the silencer add on and then whatever doesn’t go into the silencer Carries on thro a pipe and to a tap up near where I sit. Mostly the tap will be open or nearly half open .. as soon as I see something that might not like the noise I shut the tap off. This forces all gas thru the silencer muffler for a long as I need to be quiet for. If it’s successful on my next hunti will posts pic. If not I’ll just crawl into a hole and die of shame
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