Hunting Crown Land in South Australia

General conversation and chit chat - The place for non-shooting specific topics. Introduce yourself here.

Re: Hunting Crown Land in South Australia

Post by Fionn » 25 Jul 2022, 12:51 pm

The hard thing for most people is knowing what type of land it is in the first place as what I have been saying only applies to licenced crown land.

Local Rangers would be a good source of information.

And the plantations will say no you can't if asked, but that doesn't mean it against the law to do so.
User avatar
Fionn
Sergeant
Sergeant
 
Posts: 625
Victoria

Re: Hunting Crown Land in South Australia

Post by Oldbloke » 25 Jul 2022, 1:57 pm

Fionn wrote:The hard thing for most people is knowing what type of land it is in the first place as what I have been saying only applies to licenced crown land.

Local Rangers would be a good source of information.

And the plantations will say no you can't if asked, but that doesn't mean it against the law to do so.


Agree
The greatest invention in the history of man is beer.
https://youtu.be/2v3QrUvYj-Y
Member. SFFP, Shooters Union.
SSAA, the powerful gun lobby. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Hunt safe.
User avatar
Oldbloke
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 11192
Victoria

Re: Hunting Crown Land in South Australia

Post by bladeracer » 25 Jul 2022, 2:33 pm

Fionn wrote:The hard thing for most people is knowing what type of land it is in the first place as what I have been saying only applies to licenced crown land.

Local Rangers would be a good source of information.

And the plantations will say no you can't if asked, but that doesn't mean it against the law to do so.


That is an excellent point.
How do I find out if a plantation is merely "licenced"?
It would fix the deer issue we're having on a Landcare site.
Practice Strict Gun Control - Precision Counts!
User avatar
bladeracer
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 12655
Victoria

Re: Hunting Crown Land in South Australia

Post by bladeracer » 25 Jul 2022, 2:52 pm

Fionn wrote:The hard thing for most people is knowing what type of land it is in the first place as what I have been saying only applies to licenced crown land.

Local Rangers would be a good source of information.

And the plantations will say no you can't if asked, but that doesn't mean it against the law to do so.


DELWP does say that a licence can only be issued for ten years, which would be too short for a plantation, would they actually plant trees in the hope that they can renew the licence later? Wouldn't it be more sensible to lease the land for the purpose of harvesting trees?
Practice Strict Gun Control - Precision Counts!
User avatar
bladeracer
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 12655
Victoria

Re: Hunting Crown Land in South Australia

Post by Oldbloke » 25 Jul 2022, 4:36 pm

bladeracer wrote:
Fionn wrote:The hard thing for most people is knowing what type of land it is in the first place as what I have been saying only applies to licenced crown land.

Local Rangers would be a good source of information.

And the plantations will say no you can't if asked, but that doesn't mean it against the law to do so.


DELWP does say that a licence can only be issued for ten years, which would be too short for a plantation, would they actually plant trees in the hope that they can renew the licence later? Wouldn't it be more sensible to lease the land for the purpose of harvesting trees?


Doh, yes I spotted that too.
The greatest invention in the history of man is beer.
https://youtu.be/2v3QrUvYj-Y
Member. SFFP, Shooters Union.
SSAA, the powerful gun lobby. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Hunt safe.
User avatar
Oldbloke
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 11192
Victoria

Re: Hunting Crown Land in South Australia

Post by Fionn » 25 Jul 2022, 4:46 pm

bladeracer wrote:DELWP does say that a licence can only be issued for ten years, which would be too short for a plantation, would they actually plant trees in the hope that they can renew the licence later? Wouldn't it be more sensible to lease the land for the purpose of harvesting trees?


Plantation licences on crown land are perpetual license's
User avatar
Fionn
Sergeant
Sergeant
 
Posts: 625
Victoria

Re: Hunting Crown Land in South Australia

Post by bladeracer » 25 Jul 2022, 7:11 pm

Everything I'm finding still says you need permission from the lessee or licensee.
The only "crown land" we can hunt or shoot on without somebody's permission is "unoccupied crown land" - we already have permission as members of the public.
Attachments
GMA hunting crown land 1.jpg
GMA hunting crown land 1.jpg (25.81 KiB) Viewed 4925 times
GMA hunting crown land 2.jpg
GMA hunting crown land 2.jpg (23.55 KiB) Viewed 4925 times
GMA hunting crown land 3.jpg
GMA hunting crown land 3.jpg (48.44 KiB) Viewed 4925 times
GMA hunting crown land 4.jpg
GMA hunting crown land 4.jpg (44.79 KiB) Viewed 4925 times
Practice Strict Gun Control - Precision Counts!
User avatar
bladeracer
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 12655
Victoria

Re: Hunting Crown Land in South Australia

Post by Fionn » 26 Jul 2022, 9:32 am

bladeracer wrote:Everything I'm finding still says you need permission from the lessee or licensee.
The only "crown land" we can hunt or shoot on without somebody's permission is "unoccupied crown land" - we already have permission as members of the public.


This is already covered in earlier posts, they "generally" don't want you hunting in these licenced crown land areas without permission/permits.

But it's not illegal to do so.


I have explained this before, the language used is very important in law.
User avatar
Fionn
Sergeant
Sergeant
 
Posts: 625
Victoria

Re: Hunting Crown Land in South Australia

Post by bladeracer » 26 Jul 2022, 10:04 am

Fionn wrote:
bladeracer wrote:Everything I'm finding still says you need permission from the lessee or licensee.
The only "crown land" we can hunt or shoot on without somebody's permission is "unoccupied crown land" - we already have permission as members of the public.


This is already covered in earlier posts, they "generally" don't want you hunting in these licenced crown land areas without permission/permits.

But it's not illegal to do so.


I have explained this before, the language used is very important in law.


Those screenshots are from GMA's site, not the lessees or licensees.
Leased Crown Land "...only with the permission of the lessee."
Licenced Crown Land "...subject to the permission of the licensee."

You're saying GMA is publishing incorrect information?
Practice Strict Gun Control - Precision Counts!
User avatar
bladeracer
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 12655
Victoria

Re: Hunting Crown Land in South Australia

Post by Oldbloke » 26 Jul 2022, 10:20 am

I'm afraid I agree with bladeracer.
They are "no go zones"
The greatest invention in the history of man is beer.
https://youtu.be/2v3QrUvYj-Y
Member. SFFP, Shooters Union.
SSAA, the powerful gun lobby. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Hunt safe.
User avatar
Oldbloke
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 11192
Victoria

Re: Hunting Crown Land in South Australia

Post by bladeracer » 26 Jul 2022, 10:59 am

Oldbloke wrote:I'm afraid I agree with bladeracer.
They are "no go zones"


I'm not entirely convinced either way as yet, but I have far too much to lose in testing the theory :-)

I know that doing the HVP induction you agree not to shoot or hunt, but I think that would actually be their policy that you agree to while under engagement with the company, rather than applying to anybody entering their property.
Practice Strict Gun Control - Precision Counts!
User avatar
bladeracer
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 12655
Victoria

Re: Hunting Crown Land in South Australia

Post by on_one_wheel » 26 Jul 2022, 11:40 am

It's pretty basic Fionn ...

You need permission from whoever is leasing the land. There's no loopholes, grey areas or long forgotten ancient laws at play.

Most of it is all station country, followed by aboriginal lands which is probably native title instead of crown now as its been handed back, then forestry, that leaves little areas used for holiday house communities, sanctuaries, small easements, river banks, around lakes (think seasonal duck hunting), beaches and loads of other land that isn't suitable for hunting with firearms because it's just too small.
Gun control requires concentration and a steady hand
User avatar
on_one_wheel
Colonel
Colonel
 
Posts: 3561
South Australia

Re: Hunting Crown Land in South Australia

Post by Peter988 » 26 Jul 2022, 7:08 pm

So - just on SA. I was in Arkaroola for a night or two in the mid nineties. There were to blokes there who had permission to shoot goats. I think it was national park.
Peter988
Lance Corporal
Lance Corporal
 
Posts: 193
Queensland

Re: Hunting Crown Land in South Australia

Post by bigpete » 26 Jul 2022, 7:13 pm

Still not actually legal,but you'd be amazed what the park rangers in the area will allow for a carton ;)
bigpete
Colonel
Colonel
 
Posts: 3577
South Australia

Re: Hunting Crown Land in South Australia

Post by on_one_wheel » 26 Jul 2022, 7:18 pm

bigpete wrote:Still not actually legal,but you'd be amazed what the park rangers in the area will allow for a carton ;)


I wonder what they'll "allow" for a crate of whisky?
Gun control requires concentration and a steady hand
User avatar
on_one_wheel
Colonel
Colonel
 
Posts: 3561
South Australia

Re: Hunting Crown Land in South Australia

Post by Fionn » 26 Jul 2022, 9:56 pm

bladeracer wrote:You're saying GMA is publishing incorrect information?


Think of it more as controlling the narrative.

Also note they don't say its illegal or what happens if you don't have permission.

The GMA are not public land managers so you shouldn't expect them to be across land holding types, you would be better off asking a land manager.
User avatar
Fionn
Sergeant
Sergeant
 
Posts: 625
Victoria

Re: Hunting Crown Land in South Australia

Post by Fionn » 26 Jul 2022, 9:59 pm

bladeracer wrote:I'm not entirely convinced either way as yet, but I have far too much to lose in testing the theory :-)

I know that doing the HVP induction you agree not to shoot or hunt, but I think that would actually be their policy that you agree to while under engagement with the company, rather than applying to anybody entering their property.


Think of it this way if helpful, what offence would you be charged with for shooting on this licenced crown land? Look it up and see what you can come up with.

On a side note the majority of HVP plantations in Gippsland are freehold.
User avatar
Fionn
Sergeant
Sergeant
 
Posts: 625
Victoria

Re: Hunting Crown Land in South Australia

Post by Fionn » 26 Jul 2022, 10:02 pm

on_one_wheel wrote:It's pretty basic Fionn ...

You need permission from whoever is leasing the land. There's no loopholes, grey areas or long forgotten ancient laws at play.

Most of it is all station country, followed by aboriginal lands which is probably native title instead of crown now as its been handed back, then forestry, that leaves little areas used for holiday house communities, sanctuaries, small easements, river banks, around lakes (think seasonal duck hunting), beaches and loads of other land that isn't suitable for hunting with firearms because it's just too small.


Seems like you haven't been able to follow what I have been discussing.

I have said repeatedly that I am talking about licenced crown land, not leased crown land.

Your post shows you don't understand what licenced crown land even means, or the difference between it and leased crown land.

But well done for at least having a go. :clap: :clap: :clap:

Look the terms up and get back to me if you have any questions.
User avatar
Fionn
Sergeant
Sergeant
 
Posts: 625
Victoria

Re: Hunting Crown Land in South Australia

Post by bladeracer » 26 Jul 2022, 10:18 pm

Fionn wrote:
bladeracer wrote:I'm not entirely convinced either way as yet, but I have far too much to lose in testing the theory :-)

I know that doing the HVP induction you agree not to shoot or hunt, but I think that would actually be their policy that you agree to while under engagement with the company, rather than applying to anybody entering their property.


Think of it this way if helpful, what offence would you be charged with for shooting on this licenced crown land? Look it up and see what you can come up with.

On a side note the majority of HVP plantations in Gippsland are freehold.


I'd be willing to pursue it perhaps if I were able to confirm conclusively that a piece of land is licenced rather than leased.
I would guess the same offences as shooting on private property without landowner's permission.

What does freehold mean to me as a shooter? I'm not seeing "freehold" mentioned anywhere at all related to hunting or shooting.
https://www.gma.vic.gov.au/hunting/deer/where-to-hunt
This site says that less than 5% of government land is freehold.
https://www.land.vic.gov.au/government-land/first-time-here/what-is-government-land

I got this from HVP yesterday but I still have no way to confirm if a piece of land is any specific class of usage. I can ask HVP of course, but is there a legal requirement for them to even respond, honestly or otherwise? There must be another way of determining the type of usage.
HVP Plantation Licence.jpg
HVP Plantation Licence.jpg (43 KiB) Viewed 4870 times
Practice Strict Gun Control - Precision Counts!
User avatar
bladeracer
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 12655
Victoria

Re: Hunting Crown Land in South Australia

Post by Fionn » 26 Jul 2022, 10:55 pm

bladeracer wrote:I'd be willing to pursue it perhaps if I were able to confirm conclusively that a piece of land is licenced rather than leased.
I would guess the same offences as shooting on private property without landowner's permission.

What does freehold mean to me as a shooter? I'm not seeing "freehold" mentioned anywhere at all related to hunting or shooting.
https://www.gma.vic.gov.au/hunting/deer/where-to-hunt
This site says that less than 5% of government land is freehold.
https://www.land.vic.gov.au/government-land/first-time-here/what-is-government-land

I got this from HVP yesterday but I still have no way to confirm if a piece of land is any specific class of usage. I can ask HVP of course, but is there a legal requirement for them to even respond, honestly or otherwise? There must be another way of determining the type of usage.
HVP Plantation Licence.jpg


DELWP would be the people to ask what type of land it is and if its leased or licenced. They have no reason to give you misinformation about it.

Freehold is a common law term of ownership which means "free from hold" but in simple terms it means private property or land in this context. Crown land whether leased or licenced is not freehold or "free from hold", as the "crown" still owns it. (as a hold on it) or in technical terms, is not alienated from the crown in fee simple.

Carry or use a firearm on private property without consent is an offence under the section 131 of the Firearms Act.

There are similar offences for Carry or use a firearm in national park or reserves etc,

But not for Crown land
User avatar
Fionn
Sergeant
Sergeant
 
Posts: 625
Victoria

Re: Hunting Crown Land in South Australia

Post by Oldbloke » 26 Jul 2022, 11:21 pm

I'm still watching. And staying calm. Lol

I hear what your saying about licenced crown land fion. But yet to see anything supporting it. Id want more before I shot on a HVP forest.

And there are plenty about with game on them.
The greatest invention in the history of man is beer.
https://youtu.be/2v3QrUvYj-Y
Member. SFFP, Shooters Union.
SSAA, the powerful gun lobby. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Hunt safe.
User avatar
Oldbloke
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 11192
Victoria

Re: Hunting Crown Land in South Australia

Post by Oldbloke » 26 Jul 2022, 11:36 pm

The greatest invention in the history of man is beer.
https://youtu.be/2v3QrUvYj-Y
Member. SFFP, Shooters Union.
SSAA, the powerful gun lobby. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Hunt safe.
User avatar
Oldbloke
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 11192
Victoria

Re: Hunting Crown Land in South Australia

Post by Fionn » 27 Jul 2022, 12:01 am

Oldbloke wrote:I'm still watching. And staying calm. Lol

I hear what your saying about licenced crown land fion. But yet to see anything supporting it. Id want more before I shot on a HVP forest.

And there are plenty about with game on them.


The support isn't straight forward and easy to see, Its a very complex mix of legislation you need to be across, you need read and understand these laws that apply (and there are lots at play here). But basically there is nothing giving you permission, as in a law saying you are allowed to do it, but on the flip side there is nothing saying its against the law, it sits in the space that there is no law covering it.

So its not illegal. That's been my position all a long, not forgetting it was a ranger that also told Bladeracer this.

I suggest to anyone, not to carry or use a firearm in these locations unless you understand all the laws that apply and the type of land your on.
User avatar
Fionn
Sergeant
Sergeant
 
Posts: 625
Victoria

Re: Hunting Crown Land in South Australia

Post by on_one_wheel » 27 Jul 2022, 4:54 am

Licenced / leased the land is being used and permission is required it's as simple as that Fionn
The laws and rules here are written very clearly.

How about you (Fionn) give us one example of crown land that (in your words) is "licenced" and can be hunted on without permission from whoever holds the licence.

Just one example will be fine.
Gun control requires concentration and a steady hand
User avatar
on_one_wheel
Colonel
Colonel
 
Posts: 3561
South Australia

Re: Hunting Crown Land in South Australia

Post by Billo » 27 Jul 2022, 9:06 am

TO's control hunting and fishing right in the NT and I would think SA would be no different if one could be bothered do some research, it might be worth taking a different approach.... ;) :thumbsup:

https://www.nativetitlesa.org/whose-country-am-i-on/
22lr, 20 Hornady Hornet, 6mm ARC, 270 Win, 308 Win, 358 Win, 9.3x62, 500 S&W
User avatar
Billo
Corporal
Corporal
 
Posts: 419
New South Wales

Re: Hunting Crown Land in South Australia

Post by Die Judicii » 27 Jul 2022, 9:01 pm

What Fion said re plantation owners not wanting anyone shooting (regardless of whether crown land or private land) would also be related
to the simple fact that they,, and the saw mills don't want to be milling timber that contains projectiles. :thumbsdown:
I do not fear death itself... Only its inopportune timing!
I've come to realize that,,,,, the two most loving, loyal, and trustworthy females in my entire life were both canines.
User avatar
Die Judicii
Colonel
Colonel
 
Posts: 3706
Queensland

Re: Hunting Crown Land in South Australia

Post by bladeracer » 27 Jul 2022, 10:15 pm

Die Judicii wrote:What Fion said re plantation owners not wanting anyone shooting (regardless of whether crown land or private land) would also be related
to the simple fact that they,, and the saw mills don't want to be milling timber that contains projectiles. :thumbsdown:


Don't they use metal detectors nowadays to catch bullets and other hardware before it gets anywhere near a blade?

Regardless, it's part of milling timber. If it is lawful to shoot there then they have no authority to prevent you just to protect their investment. It is illegal to intentionally shoot at or damage native trees - all native flora are protected - but this wouldn't apply to non-native plantation trees. But it is likely an offence to deliberately damage such trees as they do belong to somebody.

I think it's a unicorn situation. It's possible there might be somewhere in Victoria that is crown land that we can actually shoot on - outside of the areas we are specifically allowed to (state forests, state parks, game reserves, sanctuaries, and national parks. But actually determining it conclusively probably makes it unlikely you'd ever find it.

I can't even think where else to go to have the "licenced crown land" clarified conclusively. Our hunting resources tell us we need permission, and the licensee's tell us we need permission. I could perhaps pay a few thousand dollars to a solicitor and get an answer, but could still wind up fighting it in court, unless a precedent has already been set by somebody else.

Is this "licenced crown land" idea used in other states in relation to hunting or shooting?
Practice Strict Gun Control - Precision Counts!
User avatar
bladeracer
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 12655
Victoria

Re: Hunting Crown Land in South Australia

Post by Oldbloke » 27 Jul 2022, 10:20 pm

If a saw tooth hit a bullet in timber might snap off and become a projectile in the mill.??
The greatest invention in the history of man is beer.
https://youtu.be/2v3QrUvYj-Y
Member. SFFP, Shooters Union.
SSAA, the powerful gun lobby. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Hunt safe.
User avatar
Oldbloke
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 11192
Victoria

Re: Hunting Crown Land in South Australia

Post by bladeracer » 27 Jul 2022, 10:52 pm

Oldbloke wrote:If a saw tooth hit a bullet in timber might snap off and become a projectile in the mill.??


I doubt it, I've cut through many hundreds of steel nails and screws with circular saws, it cuts through them fine but it can break the carbide inserts. I kept older saw blades aside for doing extension work because of all the nails you'd cut through.
Practice Strict Gun Control - Precision Counts!
User avatar
bladeracer
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 12655
Victoria

Re: Hunting Crown Land in South Australia

Post by bigpete » 28 Jul 2022, 3:52 am

Well this has been an interesting discourse on Victorian plantation laws lol.
As for traditional owners having access to crown land,I thought that was relatively common knowledge. But the question still remains,prior to 96 ( as the fb bloke reckoned), was there legally a heap of crown land open to ALL hunters? I actually should have asked the old man on the weekend,he spent a long time in the NPWS and has been hunting since the late 60s
bigpete
Colonel
Colonel
 
Posts: 3577
South Australia

PreviousNext

Back to top
 
Return to Off topic - General conversation