Every state and territory in breach of National Firearms Agr

General conversation and chit chat - The place for non-shooting specific topics. Introduce yourself here.

Every state and territory in breach of National Firearms Agr

Post by Jackaroo » 19 Jan 2023, 11:40 am

Not great :|

Every state and territory in breach of National Firearms Agreement The Australian

1.JPG
1.JPG (78.31 KiB) Viewed 2657 times


2.JPG
2.JPG (34.88 KiB) Viewed 2657 times


3.JPG
3.JPG (112.65 KiB) Viewed 2657 times
User avatar
Jackaroo
Lance Corporal
Lance Corporal
 
Posts: 207
New South Wales

Re: Every state and territory in breach of National Firearms

Post by rc42 » 19 Jan 2023, 2:13 pm

This issue was raised again in QLD a couple of years ago, the QLD police rightly supported the current legislation and stated that the huge overhead in monitoring and enforcing such a system would yield no benefits to public safety.

It's normal for the anti-gun extremists to try to use any situation to try and push their agendas and this seems to be a golden opportunity that they are bursting with ideas to take advantage of.
rc42
Staff Sergeant
Staff Sergeant
 
Posts: 795
Queensland

Re: Every state and territory in breach of National Firearms

Post by bladeracer » 19 Jan 2023, 2:18 pm

It was a agreement, not a law or a contract, no state complies with all of it as far as I'm aware.
Practice Strict Gun Control - Precision Counts!
User avatar
bladeracer
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 12688
Victoria

Re: Every state and territory in breach of National Firearms

Post by on_one_wheel » 19 Jan 2023, 9:28 pm

The limit on ammo is pretty pointless and the authorities know it, hence why it's not inforced.

In SA we're restricted to a maximum of 12 months supply of ammunition which for someone like myself is pretty much a truckload :thumbsup:
Gun control requires concentration and a steady hand
User avatar
on_one_wheel
Colonel
Colonel
 
Posts: 3596
South Australia

Re: Every state and territory in breach of National Firearms

Post by womble » 20 Jan 2023, 2:57 am

Fair time it was scrapped tbh
Unworkable and unreasonable
I dream of a world where chickens can cross the road without having their motives questioned
womble
Lieutenant
Lieutenant
 
Posts: 2369
Victoria

Re: Every state and territory in breach of National Firearms

Post by Barbarian » 21 Jan 2023, 11:10 am

I believe its all restricted largely under the explosives regulations in each state no? Regardless, Practically the limit is how much one person can store safely and securely. The vast majority of shooters maybe have an extra pistol safe for ammo or use the compartment in their large safe.

I had to install extra safes with shelves and even then I've only got 3 safes because WA considers spent brass ammo and I'm covering my own ass as far as components go. Even in factory boxes ammo starts to take up room quick, shotgun loads especially.
Barbarian
Private
Private
 
Posts: 83
Western Australia

Re: Every state and territory in breach of National Firearms

Post by niteowl » 21 Jan 2023, 1:33 pm

Ammo current act.PNG
Ammo current act.PNG (95.39 KiB) Viewed 2464 times
WA Act
niteowl
Lance Corporal
Lance Corporal
 
Posts: 144
Western Australia

Re: Every state and territory in breach of National Firearms

Post by bladeracer » 21 Jan 2023, 2:38 pm

Barbarian wrote:I believe its all restricted largely under the explosives regulations in each state no? Regardless, Practically the limit is how much one person can store safely and securely. The vast majority of shooters maybe have an extra pistol safe for ammo or use the compartment in their large safe.

I had to install extra safes with shelves and even then I've only got 3 safes because WA considers spent brass ammo and I'm covering my own ass as far as components go. Even in factory boxes ammo starts to take up room quick, shotgun loads especially.


WA has never included brass in the definition of ammunition in legislation, though I have certainly heard of them charging people over it. WA Police don't care what the laws state, they will happily make up anything that suits their purpose at the time.
Practice Strict Gun Control - Precision Counts!
User avatar
bladeracer
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 12688
Victoria

Re: Every state and territory in breach of National Firearms

Post by S O K A R » 21 Jan 2023, 3:44 pm

Here in Tas it's a 12 month's supply like it is in some other states, but I guess that comes down to how much you shoot.
Could be a few hundred rounds or could be a few thousand, but I get why they do it to stop people stockpiling for the inevitable zombie apocalypse. :crazy:
I always buy in bulk (3,000+ rounds) each time I buy ammo, never had any issues.
S O K A R
Lance Corporal
Lance Corporal
 
Posts: 219
Tasmania

Re: Every state and territory in breach of National Firearms

Post by Fionn » 21 Jan 2023, 4:34 pm

bladeracer wrote:
Barbarian wrote:I believe its all restricted largely under the explosives regulations in each state no? Regardless, Practically the limit is how much one person can store safely and securely. The vast majority of shooters maybe have an extra pistol safe for ammo or use the compartment in their large safe.

I had to install extra safes with shelves and even then I've only got 3 safes because WA considers spent brass ammo and I'm covering my own ass as far as components go. Even in factory boxes ammo starts to take up room quick, shotgun loads especially.


WA has never included brass in the definition of ammunition in legislation, though I have certainly heard of them charging people over it. WA Police don't care what the laws state, they will happily make up anything that suits their purpose at the time.


Well that's embarrassing :oops: suggest you read the post before yours.
User avatar
Fionn
Sergeant
Sergeant
 
Posts: 625
Victoria

Re: Every state and territory in breach of National Firearms

Post by Fionn » 21 Jan 2023, 4:38 pm

S O K A R wrote:Here in Tas it's a 12 month's supply like it is in some other states, but I guess that comes down to how much you shoot.
Could be a few hundred rounds or could be a few thousand, but I get why they do it to stop people stockpiling for the inevitable zombie apocalypse. :crazy:
I always buy in bulk (3,000+ rounds) each time I buy ammo, never had any issues.


Not necessary directing this at you, but what does the law actually say in this regard?

As an example, I have rifles that I haven't used in the past 12mths or longer, so if I have 1 round am I breaking the law as 12mths supply is zero rounds for me. :unknown:
User avatar
Fionn
Sergeant
Sergeant
 
Posts: 625
Victoria

Re: Every state and territory in breach of National Firearms

Post by bladeracer » 21 Jan 2023, 5:19 pm

Fionn wrote:Well that's embarrassing :oops: suggest you read the post before yours.


What's embarrassing about it? I posted that clarification last year when they made it, but it is just a clarification. The law never included brass.
Practice Strict Gun Control - Precision Counts!
User avatar
bladeracer
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 12688
Victoria

Re: Every state and territory in breach of National Firearms

Post by bladeracer » 21 Jan 2023, 5:29 pm

S O K A R wrote:Here in Tas it's a 12 month's supply like it is in some other states, but I guess that comes down to how much you shoot.
Could be a few hundred rounds or could be a few thousand, but I get why they do it to stop people stockpiling for the inevitable zombie apocalypse. :crazy:
I always buy in bulk (3,000+ rounds) each time I buy ammo, never had any issues.


I didn't know that, I thought only SA had such an unenforceable law.
I just finished loading more than 600rds of .303 practice ammo last night. Should be enough to do a full season of practice and shoots in case I decide to do the LERAA shoots this year. If I do decide to take it seriously I might load Hornady's 174gn FMJ for the competitions, but I still don't think the small improvement in accuracy will let me hit the Figure 11 at 500yds :-)
That's only for one rifle, and I also have hundreds of rounds of other loads for it with 150gn and 100gn bullets.

The M19A1 Nato cans hold 300rds of .303 in chargers.
20230120_230659b.jpg
20230120_230659b.jpg (240.25 KiB) Viewed 2432 times


I don't see any sense in such a law at all. It's simple common sense to plan ahead for whatever you do and nobody should be penalised for doing so.
Practice Strict Gun Control - Precision Counts!
User avatar
bladeracer
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 12688
Victoria

Re: Every state and territory in breach of National Firearms

Post by bladeracer » 21 Jan 2023, 5:35 pm

Barbarian wrote:I believe its all restricted largely under the explosives regulations in each state no? Regardless, Practically the limit is how much one person can store safely and securely. The vast majority of shooters maybe have an extra pistol safe for ammo or use the compartment in their large safe.

I had to install extra safes with shelves and even then I've only got 3 safes because WA considers spent brass ammo and I'm covering my own ass as far as components go. Even in factory boxes ammo starts to take up room quick, shotgun loads especially.


As far as I'm aware WA is the only state that requires ammunition to be kept in safes, everywhere else it merely has to be locked up - plastic MTM ammo crates with a couple of padlocks are fine. Only WA requires bullets to be secured in any way at all.

12ga. ammo sucks when it comes to storage, 1000rd takes up more room than 20,000rds of .22LR, but it is a handy store of fast powder and lead shot for casting bullets.
Practice Strict Gun Control - Precision Counts!
User avatar
bladeracer
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 12688
Victoria

Re: Every state and territory in breach of National Firearms

Post by womble » 21 Jan 2023, 6:08 pm

Mine only have one padlock :unknown:
I dream of a world where chickens can cross the road without having their motives questioned
womble
Lieutenant
Lieutenant
 
Posts: 2369
Victoria

Re: Every state and territory in breach of National Firearms

Post by bladeracer » 21 Jan 2023, 6:37 pm

womble wrote:Mine only have one padlock :unknown:


Mine are the bigger ones, ACR4-18's, ACR5-72's, ACR8-72's and AC50C's. I got 40 padlocks all keyed alike so I only need one key.
Practice Strict Gun Control - Precision Counts!
User avatar
bladeracer
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 12688
Victoria

Re: Every state and territory in breach of National Firearms

Post by S O K A R » 21 Jan 2023, 7:00 pm

Fionn wrote:
Not necessary directing this at you, but what does the law actually say in this regard?

As an example, I have rifles that I haven't used in the past 12mths or longer, so if I have 1 round am I breaking the law as 12mths supply is zero rounds for me. :unknown:

Pulled this from the firearms act 1996 and firearms regulations 2016:

46. General conditions of licence

A licence is subject to the following conditions:
(a) the licensee must possess or use a firearm only –
(i) of the category to which the licence relates; and
(ii) for the particular purpose, and at any premises, specified in the licence;
(b) the licensee must comply with the safekeeping and storage requirements under this Act;
(ba) the licensee must notify the Commissioner in an approved form of any change in the licensee's name or residential address within 14 days after that change;
(c) the licensee must ensure that the firearm is safe to use;
(d) the licensee must not allow any other person to possess or use a firearm in the licensee's possession if that other person is not authorised to possess or use the firearm;
(e) the licensee must permit a police officer to inspect at any reasonable time the licensee's arrangements for the storage and safekeeping of the firearms in the licensee's possession;
(f) the licensee must not possess, at any time, any amount of ammunition that exceeds the prescribed amount without the written authorisation of the Commissioner.


105. Sale and possession of ammunition

(1) A person must not sell or supply ammunition for a firearm to another person unless –
(a) the other person –
(i) is the holder of a licence for a firearm which takes that ammunition; or
(ii) is authorised by the Commissioner in writing to buy it; and
(b) the person selling or supplying the ammunition has seen the licence or authority of the other person; and
(c) the person selling or supplying the ammunition is –
(i) a firearms dealer; or
(ii) an employee of a firearms dealer; or
(iii) authorised by the Commissioner in writing to sell or supply the ammunition.
Penalty: Fine not exceeding 50 penalty units.
(2) A person must not acquire ammunition for any firearm unless –
(a) the person –
(i) is the holder of a licence for a firearm which takes that ammunition; or
(ii) is authorised by the Commissioner in writing to acquire it; and
(b) the amount of ammunition that is acquired during any prescribed period does not exceed any prescribed amount.


20. Prescribed amount of ammunition and period of acquisition

For section 105(2)(b) of the Act –
(a) the prescribed amount of ammunition is such amount as the Commissioner determines having regard to –
(i) the amount of ammunition that the holder of the licence for the firearm reasonably requires for the firearm; and
(ii) the genuine reason for which the licence is issued; and
(b) the prescribed period is 12 months.
S O K A R
Lance Corporal
Lance Corporal
 
Posts: 219
Tasmania

Re: Every state and territory in breach of National Firearms

Post by S O K A R » 21 Jan 2023, 7:12 pm

bladeracer wrote:
S O K A R wrote:Here in Tas it's a 12 month's supply like it is in some other states, but I guess that comes down to how much you shoot.
Could be a few hundred rounds or could be a few thousand, but I get why they do it to stop people stockpiling for the inevitable zombie apocalypse. :crazy:
I always buy in bulk (3,000+ rounds) each time I buy ammo, never had any issues.


I didn't know that, I thought only SA had such an unenforceable law.
I just finished loading more than 600rds of .303 practice ammo last night. Should be enough to do a full season of practice and shoots in case I decide to do the LERAA shoots this year. If I do decide to take it seriously I might load Hornady's 174gn FMJ for the competitions, but I still don't think the small improvement in accuracy will let me hit the Figure 11 at 500yds :-)
That's only for one rifle, and I also have hundreds of rounds of other loads for it with 150gn and 100gn bullets.

The M19A1 Nato cans hold 300rds of .303 in chargers.
20230120_230659b.jpg


I don't see any sense in such a law at all. It's simple common sense to plan ahead for whatever you do and nobody should be penalised for doing so.


I've never heard of anyone getting busted for it, well except those lads in Queensland that got busted for burying huge amounts of ammo a few years back :lol:
But I would assume the only way anyone would ever get done for having too much ammo is if they did something to warrant getting their guns/ammo confiscated, or perhaps purchasing huge amounts (10k plus rounds) on a regular basis.
That might draw some attention...
S O K A R
Lance Corporal
Lance Corporal
 
Posts: 219
Tasmania

Re: Every state and territory in breach of National Firearms

Post by bladeracer » 21 Jan 2023, 7:26 pm

S O K A R wrote:
20. Prescribed amount of ammunition and period of acquisition

For section 105(2)(b) of the Act –
(a) the prescribed amount of ammunition is such amount as the Commissioner determines having regard to –
(i) the amount of ammunition that the holder of the licence for the firearm reasonably requires for the firearm; and
(ii) the genuine reason for which the licence is issued; and
(b) the prescribed period is 12 months.


That makes no sense at all, I can't see any way that can be enforced.
If I buy a .22 today, my first firearm, I have no way of knowing how much ammo I might use in one year. I could order four cases of ammo with it and at the end of the year I might have 19,950rds left, or I might've had to buy another two cases. Then once I've spent that year really getting acquainted with the rifle, the following year I might only use 50rds to knock off some rabbits and foxes.

Buying four cases of ammo today saves me at least $1200 dollars over buying it by the box when I need it so is well worth doing, nobody should be penalised for using their brain to save money and plan for their future.

I assume they're pushing for UK laws where you are allowed possession of a specific number of rounds for each firearm at one time, like 200rds of .308 and 200rds of 7mm RemMag - and no expanding bullets unless you have a hunting licence. I was told you can get a special permission to buy a case of .22LR to have a single lot for competition but that is unusual. Being able to keep a hundred different types of .22LR ammo on hand for testing in different firearms is impossible in the UK. They fairly recently removed the limit on how many bullets you can own and made it only apply to how much ammo you can have loaded at one time.
Practice Strict Gun Control - Precision Counts!
User avatar
bladeracer
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 12688
Victoria

Re: Every state and territory in breach of National Firearms

Post by Fionn » 21 Jan 2023, 8:26 pm

bladeracer wrote:That makes no sense at all, I can't see any way that can be enforced.


It can't currently by the looks of it as there is no prescribed amount. Its a future proofing law, added so the prescribed amount can be added without it passing Tasmanian parliament.
User avatar
Fionn
Sergeant
Sergeant
 
Posts: 625
Victoria

Re: Every state and territory in breach of National Firearms

Post by Barbarian » 26 Jan 2023, 2:11 pm

Fionn wrote:
bladeracer wrote:
Barbarian wrote:I believe its all restricted largely under the explosives regulations in each state no? Regardless, Practically the limit is how much one person can store safely and securely. The vast majority of shooters maybe have an extra pistol safe for ammo or use the compartment in their large safe.

I had to install extra safes with shelves and even then I've only got 3 safes because WA considers spent brass ammo and I'm covering my own ass as far as components go. Even in factory boxes ammo starts to take up room quick, shotgun loads especially.


WA has never included brass in the definition of ammunition in legislation, though I have certainly heard of them charging people over it. WA Police don't care what the laws state, they will happily make up anything that suits their purpose at the time.


Well that's embarrassing :oops: suggest you read the post before yours.


The law has absolutely nothing to do with what WAPOL will and have issued infringement notices over, one can appeal the infringement but it costs money and you are in no way guaranteed to have your costs awarded.
Barbarian
Private
Private
 
Posts: 83
Western Australia

Re: Every state and territory in breach of National Firearms

Post by Barbarian » 26 Jan 2023, 2:14 pm

niteowl wrote:
Ammo current act.PNG
WA Act


I'm well aware of the act's contents, that hasn't stopped WAPOL failing safe inspections and issuing infringement notices for unsecured brass in the past or using said casings as justifaction to go on a fishing expedition to try and catch shooters out.

I'm simply covering myself in that event.
Barbarian
Private
Private
 
Posts: 83
Western Australia

Re: Every state and territory in breach of National Firearms

Post by bladeracer » 27 Jan 2023, 1:21 am

Barbarian wrote:
niteowl wrote:
Ammo current act.PNG
WA Act


I'm well aware of the act's contents, that hasn't stopped WAPOL failing safe inspections and issuing infringement notices for unsecured brass in the past or using said casings as justifaction to go on a fishing expedition to try and catch shooters out.

I'm simply covering myself in that event.


Yep, I always thought they brought charges for brass purely to make an illegal search for a genuine offence. I haven't been able to confirm if anybody has actually been convicted over unsecured brass.
Practice Strict Gun Control - Precision Counts!
User avatar
bladeracer
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 12688
Victoria

Re: Every state and territory in breach of National Firearms

Post by Barbarian » 27 Jan 2023, 10:19 am

bladeracer wrote:Yep, I always thought they brought charges for brass purely to make an illegal search for a genuine offence. I haven't been able to confirm if anybody has actually been convicted over unsecured brass.


I've known two older shooters who were charged within the last year for unsecured 'ammunition components' in the form of fired brass. I've heard of plenty others and seen reddit or forum posts but I only know of the two following to be true.

One was a co-worker who also had a compliant safe for ammunition but the safe for the guns themselves was near the sliding door to his shed and the cops called it an 'Open Shed, in public view' and the safe itself wasn't compliant. So in this case I think the brass was just tacked on.

The other was purely for an assortment of brass, some .50bmg in a vehicle - he had a license for most but the cops only took the .50bmg brass and issued an infringement for the same because the vehicle wasn't locked. Guy in question wasn't interested in trying to fight it and just paid it. So its possible they focused on the fact that it was both .50cal and for a caliber he wasn't licensed for.

Regardless, in both cases the presence of the fired brass is not an infringement as per the WA Act.
Barbarian
Private
Private
 
Posts: 83
Western Australia

Re: Every state and territory in breach of National Firearms

Post by Fionn » 27 Jan 2023, 11:37 am

I think the reason for confusion about spent cartridges in WA is because the prior to November 2022 they were considered ammunition, since then they are no longer considered as such as the law was changed.
User avatar
Fionn
Sergeant
Sergeant
 
Posts: 625
Victoria

Re: Every state and territory in breach of National Firearms

Post by bladeracer » 27 Jan 2023, 1:28 pm

Barbarian wrote:I've known two older shooters who were charged within the last year for unsecured 'ammunition components' in the form of fired brass. I've heard of plenty others and seen reddit or forum posts but I only know of the two following to be true.

One was a co-worker who also had a compliant safe for ammunition but the safe for the guns themselves was near the sliding door to his shed and the cops called it an 'Open Shed, in public view' and the safe itself wasn't compliant. So in this case I think the brass was just tacked on.

The other was purely for an assortment of brass, some .50bmg in a vehicle - he had a license for most but the cops only took the .50bmg brass and issued an infringement for the same because the vehicle wasn't locked. Guy in question wasn't interested in trying to fight it and just paid it. So its possible they focused on the fact that it was both .50cal and for a caliber he wasn't licensed for.

Regardless, in both cases the presence of the fired brass is not an infringement as per the WA Act.


Were any of them actually convicted for the brass though? I hear about lots of people being charged for it but if nobody is ever being convicted of it then the Police need to be taken to task for continuing to abuse the law.
Practice Strict Gun Control - Precision Counts!
User avatar
bladeracer
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 12688
Victoria

Re: Every state and territory in breach of National Firearms

Post by bladeracer » 27 Jan 2023, 1:30 pm

Fionn wrote:I think the reason for confusion about spent cartridges in WA is because the prior to November 2022 they were considered ammunition, since then they are no longer considered as such as the law was changed.


No it wasn't. I don't have time to dig it up now but the law previously said that ammunition included anything expelled from a firearm, or something similar to that, and brass is not expelled from a firearm. This amendment was merely clarifying that it didn't include brass.
Practice Strict Gun Control - Precision Counts!
User avatar
bladeracer
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 12688
Victoria

Re: Every state and territory in breach of National Firearms

Post by Boundry Rider » 27 Jan 2023, 3:20 pm

Spent brass with a spent primer is no longer ammo. Since the latest amendments have been published.
However, spent or unprimed brass without a primer is now ammo.
Escaped WALcatraz
User avatar
Boundry Rider
Lance Corporal
Lance Corporal
 
Posts: 195
Queensland

Re: Every state and territory in breach of National Firearms

Post by Fionn » 27 Jan 2023, 3:27 pm

bladeracer wrote:No it wasn't. I don't have time to dig it up now but the law previously said that ammunition included anything expelled from a firearm, or something similar to that, and brass is not expelled from a firearm. This amendment was merely clarifying that it didn't include brass.


Prior to the change it was

ammunition includes anything manufactured specifically as a component of ammunition designed for discharge from a firearm and also includes any primer or propellant manufactured specifically for use in making ammunition designed for discharge from a firearm but does not include ammunition rendered inoperative for the purpose of a collector’s item;


Brass can clearly be argued as being a "component of ammunition", even if that not the intent.
User avatar
Fionn
Sergeant
Sergeant
 
Posts: 625
Victoria

Re: Every state and territory in breach of National Firearms

Post by bladeracer » 27 Jan 2023, 3:55 pm

Fionn wrote:
bladeracer wrote:No it wasn't. I don't have time to dig it up now but the law previously said that ammunition included anything expelled from a firearm, or something similar to that, and brass is not expelled from a firearm. This amendment was merely clarifying that it didn't include brass.


Prior to the change it was

ammunition includes anything manufactured specifically as a component of ammunition designed for discharge from a firearm and also includes any primer or propellant manufactured specifically for use in making ammunition designed for discharge from a firearm but does not include ammunition rendered inoperative for the purpose of a collector’s item;


Brass can clearly be argued as being a "component of ammunition", even if that not the intent.


I don't believe any court would consider it to be "anything manufactured specifically as a component of ammunition designed for discharge from a firearm"...
Practice Strict Gun Control - Precision Counts!
User avatar
bladeracer
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 12688
Victoria

Next

Back to top
 
Return to Off topic - General conversation