Compulsory electric vehicle madness

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Re: Compulsory electric vehicle madness

Post by wanneroo » 05 Apr 2023, 1:45 am

womble wrote:The answer is in your first sentence. Second hand ones will be affordable for anyone.


The batteries will be dead as a door nail and if you want to revive it you'll have to spend a fortune on a new battery. They estimate these battery packs last about 7-10 years.
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Re: Compulsory electric vehicle madness

Post by wanneroo » 05 Apr 2023, 2:05 am

Lazarus wrote:This is the most preposterous thing you've said yet, and that's a high bar to jump.

Uhhh...ever heard of oxygen?
We all breath it, can't live without it, but if there's too much oxygen at too high pressure it's poisonous, so your analogy is just silly.

The sources both you and PY use are proof of my assertion of confirmation bias, both the Manhattan Institute and the National Review are far right conservative organisations with a typically far right agenda.
Did you look anywhere else or just to those sources that reinforce your beliefs?

You both speak as though manufacturing ICE vehicles and the oil industries that support them just produce fluffy kittens as a by product.

We can all find something, somewhere on the internet to "prove" we are right if we look hard enough.

Here a a couple who look at it objectively.

https://electrek.co/2021/03/01/mining-e ... on-cycles/

https://www.verifythis.com/article/news ... 04c4b9ff95


I think we'll be fine.

Back in 1986 I remember the local TV meteorologist came to my school and said due to the greenhouse effect that by 2000 New York City and Miami would be underwater. :lol: :lol: Miami and NYC are still there in 2023, tide line in the same place. Temps are still the same too.

I also remember at the same time in school we got shown documentaries on the TVs wheeled into the classroom with VCRs about the "greenhouse effect" and how the earth was going to warm to crazy levels by the 2000s thanks to a little pollution from humans.

In fact there is a house I stay at on the Atlantic Ocean for vacation every year. The house sits on a prominent rocky bluff and has a property line and tide map from the 1880s framed on the wall in the house. The water still comes up to the exact same big boulders and line today.

Greenhouse effect then begat global warming and then when it was clear there was no real global warming it became climate change and now because we know the climate always changes it became the climate crisis and when that wasn't enough to panic people it is now the climate emergency.

One of the things I learned traveling the planet is earth is actually still pretty sparse and humans in most cases actually have a more positive impact on the land than is reported. I see it on my own land via improving it with ponds, a variety of scrub, fruit trees, woodland trees, pines, open areas, etc. It used to be pretty dead but now has a lot of wildlife here.

I have extensively looked into the data in regards to mining, manufacturing batteries, generating electricity, building a much larger grid, etc. People can believe what they want but like the "climate emergency", the numbers simply do not jive with the utopian BS we have been told.

But as a capitalist, buy what you want and in fact please buy one of these now. Myself I plan to continue with ICE engines till I'm dead, one way or another.

I plan on being around in 10 years, we can always revisit this thread and see who's math ended up right.
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Re: Compulsory electric vehicle madness

Post by womble » 05 Apr 2023, 5:26 am

Well. That’s certainly an interesting perspective through sand covered glasses.
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Re: Compulsory electric vehicle madness

Post by Lazarus » 05 Apr 2023, 9:38 am



Outstanding womble.

So true.

So true it stopped being funny and made me sad.
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Re: Compulsory electric vehicle madness

Post by Lazarus » 05 Apr 2023, 10:17 am

womble wrote:Just let it go.
Blade has always been neutral and unfortunately got drawn into our usual crap.
He’s a wealth of advice and information firearms related. And puts in a lot of helpful effort.
This discussion can go in circles endlessly.

Nonetheless it’s good to question the narrative, question authority.
Why am I being told to hate evs
Why am I being told to hate renewables
Why am I being told to hate a teenage girl.
Why am i being told to hate gays.
Why am I being told to blame everything on feminism.
Why am I being told to hate black people.
Those who want the answers will dig and find them in their own time. You just have to consider who or what you empower when you subscribe to their narrative and your answer lies there.
Hate is a powerful tool. Those who teach it know well what man is capable of. The goal may be chaos and total collapse of society. To reset it and mobilise their own twisted visions for a new world.
Or in this case not to. To keep the empowered safe in their high castles.


Hit the the nail squarely Womble.

Division is the new black. Only its not really new, just new again.

Unfortunately, divisive tribalistic political ideology only has one destination, we saw it in the lead up to every major war.
The Americans have turned it into an artform and, like many other toxic Americanisms, it's taken hold here.

People are leaving the reasoned centre and are flocking to the unreasoning extremes.
Mention that you don't like the LNP, many people automatically assume you love the Labor party.
Say anything negative about Anus Tangerinus and they assume you're a Biden lover, never once considering you may detest both with equal fervour.

This phenomenon has leached into all manner of things with more and more people losing the ability, or perhaps just the desire, to see any shades other than black or white.
If you are one of the dwindling number of us who remain centred, you are attacked from both sides, the right think you're a commie because you're to their left, the left think you're a nazi because you're to their right.

I know it sounds all kumbaya and probably borderline gay to the extremists, but the centre is the only place where compromise is possible, and peaceful coexistence is only possible with both extremes willing to give as well as simply divide in order to dominate.

I absolutely love my loud, thirsty, dinosaur burning V8, but I know his days are numbered and I'm just adult enough to accept that things beyond my control are changing.

Vehicle manufacturers are transitioning to electric whether the naysaying climate deniers like it or not.
OPEC knows it, they've just further reduced production to drive oil prices even higher, because the KNOW their end is coming and are shovelling as much profit as they can before the inevitable time arrives when oil is only used in the chemicals and plastics industries.

I'm sure our American compatriots here will have one of their seemingly innumerable conspiracy theories by the UN, UNESCO, WEF, WWF or WTF to blame for this move but it's simply an industry seeing its most lucrative income stream coming to an end.
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Re: Compulsory electric vehicle madness

Post by Lazarus » 05 Apr 2023, 10:44 am

wanneroo wrote:
I think we'll be fine.

Back in 1986 I remember the local TV meteorologist came to my school and said due to the greenhouse effect that by 2000 New York City and Miami would be underwater. :lol: :lol: Miami and NYC are still there in 2023, tide line in the same place. Temps are still the same too.

I also remember at the same time in school we got shown documentaries on the TVs wheeled into the classroom with VCRs about the "greenhouse effect" and how the earth was going to warm to crazy levels by the 2000s thanks to a little pollution from humans.

In fact there is a house I stay at on the Atlantic Ocean for vacation every year. The house sits on a prominent rocky bluff and has a property line and tide map from the 1880s framed on the wall in the house. The water still comes up to the exact same big boulders and line today.

Greenhouse effect then begat global warming and then when it was clear there was no real global warming it became climate change and now because we know the climate always changes it became the climate crisis and when that wasn't enough to panic people it is now the climate emergency.

One of the things I learned traveling the planet is earth is actually still pretty sparse and humans in most cases actually have a more positive impact on the land than is reported. I see it on my own land via improving it with ponds, a variety of scrub, fruit trees, woodland trees, pines, open areas, etc. It used to be pretty dead but now has a lot of wildlife here.

I have extensively looked into the data in regards to mining, manufacturing batteries, generating electricity, building a much larger grid, etc. People can believe what they want but like the "climate emergency", the numbers simply do not jive with the utopian BS we have been told.

But as a capitalist, buy what you want and in fact please buy one of these now. Myself I plan to continue with ICE engines till I'm dead, one way or another.

I plan on being around in 10 years, we can always revisit this thread and see who's math ended up right.


You say your school had a visit from a tv weather reporter in the 80s who used a bit of hyperbole to get a message across, and was off a little? That doesn't mean climate change isn't happening.

You say saw a video that said similar and got details wrong, that doesn't mean climate change isn't happening.

You say you visit a house on the coast and the tide levels haven't changed, that doesn't mean climate change isn't happening.

The climate has been disrupted by the 5 billion tonnes per year(average) of CO2 human activity puts into the air which has raised the concentration by 50% since the start of the industrial revolution.

In your "extensive" looking into data on the issue, did you look into the Antarctic Circumpolar Current and the effects anthropogenic warming has had on it and the consequences of its disruption, to name just one looming catastrophe.

I'm not a gambler, but I'd wager a goodly amount that you only "look into" sources that tell you what you want to hear, ie far right conservative sources funded no doubt by the fossil fuel industries.
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Re: Compulsory electric vehicle madness

Post by Lazarus » 05 Apr 2023, 11:31 am

bladeracer wrote:
Lazarus wrote:Hey Blade, I've been thinking about what you suggested, that personal vehicular transport will be extinct before EV's become mainstream, and I have to ask why you think this will happen?

As I see it, even by the time "they" have paved the entire world and public transport stops at everyone's premises, there will still be people either needing or wanting a personal vehicle, but I would be interested in your reasoning.


It gets harder every year to licence an older vehicle, and more expensive. Older cars now end up scrapped, despite being perfectly drivable for many more years, because people can't justify throwing $1500 at RWC and licencing a twenty or thirty year old car. When I was growing up you simply bought a $3000 ten year old car, drove it for ten years, then sold it for a grand and bought another ten year old old car. That's no longer viable, at least not in Victoria. We owned our cars, we weren't in hock to a bank for them. They are killing this off, it won't be long before it'll actually be "cheaper" to go into debt for a new vehicle than to own, licence and run an old one. And EV's seem to depreciate faster than anything else on the road. I knew a bloke that bought a Prius when they came out, well over $40k I think it cost him (a _heap_ of money back then). Had it for a few years, wanted to step up to something else, and pretty much couldn't give the thing away.
Screenshot 2023-04-04 172544.jpg

Here you go, $40k in 2001, now worth $2000-$3000 secondhand. Toyota Corolla on the same site, $22k in 2001, currently $2000-$3450. I'll have the Corolla every day of the week thanks.

Tesla Model Y, $98k+ORC, 1997kg empty, 604km range, made in China. I thought that site had a finance calculator but I can't find it. WestPac have a car finance calculator that only goes up to $100,000, and they knock the rate down from 6% to 5% for electric or hybrid. So you'd pay $119k over seven years at $1415 per month. Paying an extra $20k to drive a car you don't own - that makes no sense to me at all. And because you don't own it you also have to have comprehensive insurance on it so the real owner doesn't lose out if you destroy it.

People will certainly want personal transport, but I don't think it will be viable to own them. And if people aren't owning and licencing them who will pay to maintain the road infrastructure? It's already falling apart.

Of course, if people believe that being in debt to rent a vehicle owned by a bank is "progress" then it may drag on for a bit.


I see your reasoning Blade, but depreciation applies to everything.

Buy a brand new TV and take it out of its packaging and try to sell it for what you just paid. You'd be lucky to get half.

Petrol cars depreciate, I bought a 3 month old VB Commodore in 1978.
I was pleasantly surprised at how much cheaper it was than if I'd bought it new. I was told by the car dealer, and yes this is unprovable anecdote, that if I bought a brand new Commodore, drove it round the block and came back to sell it to them, I'd be lucky to get 60% of what I'd just paid because it was now "used".

If this parlous situation you predict was to come true, how do you see us getting about?
Particularly those of us who live in the boonies.
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Re: Compulsory electric vehicle madness

Post by bladeracer » 05 Apr 2023, 11:37 am

Lazarus wrote:I absolutely love my loud, thirsty, dinosaur burning V8, but I know his days are numbered and I'm just adult enough to accept that things beyond my control are changing.


Are his days numbered because he can no longer do the job, or because "they" are forcing him into early retirement by making him no longer cost-viable? There's no reason your V8 couldn't continue for decades and even move onto a future generation of owner, except "they" don't want them to exist in the near future. I know lots of people with vehicles they never, or rarely drive anymore simply because the costs have blown out.

Around 1998 we saw "them" ban all the two-stroke race bikes "to save the environment". MotoGP managed to hold it off for a few years but they succumbed as well by 2002. Motocross went the same way. To push it through they allowed four-strokes of double the engine capacity to compete in the same classes, ending the reign of the two-strokes.

By 2035 it'll likely be $3000 to register a petrol vehicle, it'll need emissions inspections every three months, at your cost, and fuel will be $5 a litre, if you can find a gas station that can justify the expense of retaining the certifications to have petrol and diesel on the premises. You'll probably have to sit through a Green-sponsored lecture every year, at your expense, on how climate change is all _your_ fault every year to retain the right to own a petrol vehicle. They'll probably have most of the CBD excluded to petrol vehicles so you'll only drive to the electric train station anyway. All aimed at pushing us into the new electric utopia, in which the environment will be in the same state it is now, except for all the mining infrastructure rapidly expanding across third-world countries to keep this utopia running.
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Re: Compulsory electric vehicle madness

Post by bladeracer » 05 Apr 2023, 11:55 am

Lazarus wrote:I see your reasoning Blade, but depreciation applies to everything.

Buy a brand new TV and take it out of its packaging and try to sell it for what you just paid. You'd be lucky to get half.

Petrol cars depreciate, I bought a 3 month old VB Commodore in 1978.
I was pleasantly surprised at how much cheaper it was than if I'd bought it new. I was told by the car dealer, and yes this is unprovable anecdote, that if I bought a brand new Commodore, drove it round the block and came back to sell it to them, I'd be lucky to get 60% of what I'd just paid because it was now "used".

If this parlous situation you predict was to come true, how do you see us getting about?
Particularly those of us who live in the boonies.


Depreciation does apply to everything, except older vehicles, firearms, ammunition, and particularly powders and primers ;-)
Electrical stuff has always depreciated incredibly quickly, I don't buy secondhand electronics so I can't see me ever buying a secondhand EV.

Petrol cars depreciate, but they seem to bottom out at a limit that even poorer people still find viable. That is correct about the one-day-old depreciation, but car dealers are scum, like real estate sellers. Cars and real estate need to switch to a fair wage for effort, not a percentage of how ever much they can twist out of the buyer.

I think they'll leave us in the boonies alone for a while as they concentrate on destroying independent living in the cities. Then they'll come after us, if any of us are rich enough to still be driving petrol vehicles. If you want to be driving a petrol vehicle in the future you better start building the gear you need to synthesize your own petrol very soon, or stockpile enough to last your lifetime. We fill the ute if we're out and about anyway, but normally we fill a pair of 20L diesel drums in the car rather than drive the ute into town just for fuel. At 7kpl the trip wastes more than $5 to buy $100 of fuel. The car goes twice as far on a litre of fuel.

As the mechanics and car parts retailers go out of business it will become increasingly expensive and difficult to keep our cars on the road. When I built Rose's engine in 2021 I went to Holden first to get prices on everything they could supply before I went hunting elsewhere. More than five years old they keep no parts in stock, at all, none. I couldn't get anything for it from Holden. I had to order it all from Europe.
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Re: Compulsory electric vehicle madness

Post by womble » 05 Apr 2023, 3:40 pm

wanneroo wrote:
womble wrote:The answer is in your first sentence. Second hand ones will be affordable for anyone.


The batteries will be dead as a door nail and if you want to revive it you'll have to spend a fortune on a new battery. They estimate these battery packs last about 7-10 years.


This one was owned by an elderly lady who only drove it church on sundays. It’s near mint condition.
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Re: Compulsory electric vehicle madness

Post by Lazarus » 05 Apr 2023, 3:56 pm

bladeracer wrote:
Lazarus wrote:I absolutely love my loud, thirsty, dinosaur burning V8, but I know his days are numbered and I'm just adult enough to accept that things beyond my control are changing.


Are his days numbered because he can no longer do the job, or because "they" are forcing him into early retirement by making him no longer cost-viable? There's no reason your V8 couldn't continue for decades and even move onto a future generation of owner, except "they" don't want them to exist in the near future. I know lots of people with vehicles they never, or rarely drive anymore simply because the costs have blown out.

Around 1998 we saw "them" ban all the two-stroke race bikes "to save the environment". MotoGP managed to hold it off for a few years but they succumbed as well by 2002. Motocross went the same way. To push it through they allowed four-strokes of double the engine capacity to compete in the same classes, ending the reign of the two-strokes.

By 2035 it'll likely be $3000 to register a petrol vehicle, it'll need emissions inspections every three months, at your cost, and fuel will be $5 a litre, if you can find a gas station that can justify the expense of retaining the certifications to have petrol and diesel on the premises. You'll probably have to sit through a Green-sponsored lecture every year, at your expense, on how climate change is all _your_ fault every year to retain the right to own a petrol vehicle. They'll probably have most of the CBD excluded to petrol vehicles so you'll only drive to the electric train station anyway. All aimed at pushing us into the new electric utopia, in which the environment will be in the same state it is now, except for all the mining infrastructure rapidly expanding across third-world countries to keep this utopia running.


By "his days are numbered", no I don't mean he won't last.
I mean as an economically viable mode of transport.
Every time petrol goes up, LPG, the fuel I use most, goes up with it. For several years now, when petrol prices drop the gas stays up.
The console operator at the place I get my fuel told me that the "industry", ie fuel companies and the big supermarket chains are removing gas pumps at upgrade time and nobody is putting in new ones.
This is why his usefulness is endangered.


""By 2035 it'll likely be $3000 to register a petrol vehicle, it'll need emissions inspections every three months, at your cost, and fuel will be $5 a litre, if you can find a gas station that can justify the expense of retaining the certifications to have petrol and diesel on the premises. You'll probably have to sit through a Green-sponsored lecture every year, at your expense, on how climate change is all _your_ fault every year to retain the right to own a petrol vehicle.""

Have you found anything to back this up, or is it just pessimistic guesstimates?

In the US alone, car manufacturing, just the making of them, brings 1.1 trillion dollars to the economy per year.
Can you see "they/them" giving that up just for some esoteric notion of isolation and control of the population? And killing off all the multitude of other ancillary businesses needed to run it?

Nuh, it might eventually be some George Jetson type gismo, but personal transport will be with us until teleportation is invented.
Or we just pollute ourselves and the majority of other species out of existence.
My money is on the latter.
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Re: Compulsory electric vehicle madness

Post by Pennsylvania Yank » 05 Apr 2023, 5:33 pm

Lazarus wrote:
wanneroo wrote:
Lazarus wrote:We live in a closed system on this planet.
I see the situation we're in as analogous to living in a small caravan, running a gas stove and a kero heater, you can get away with it for a while, but unless you change to electricity or open a window, you'll will suffocate.
Unfortunately we can't open a window, so adult common sense will have to overcome the mental inertia of the naysayers.

Perhaps if the naysayers lived in Kiribati they would enjoy a different perspective.


Uhhh, ever hear of photosynthesis?

This is basic elementary school biology.

Without CO2, we die because there will be nothing to eat. CO2 has been made some big villain but it's essential for life on the planet. The more CO2 around the more the plants grow. Any greenhouse owner knows this and uses it to their benefit.

People have been making any emissions out to be a bad thing and humans are bad, cows are bad, etc. but one big belch of a volcano will dump more CO2 into the air than any human activity.


This is the most preposterous thing you've said yet, and that's a high bar to jump.

Uhhh...ever heard of oxygen?
We all breath it, can't live without it, but if there's too much oxygen at too high pressure it's poisonous, so your analogy is just silly.

The sources both you and PY use are proof of my assertion of confirmation bias, both the Manhattan Institute and the National Review are far right conservative organisations with a typically far right agenda.
Did you look anywhere else or just to those sources that reinforce your beliefs?

You both speak as though manufacturing ICE vehicles and the oil industries that support them just produce fluffy kittens as a by product.

We can all find something, somewhere on the internet to "prove" we are right if we look hard enough.

Here a a couple who look at it objectively.

https://electrek.co/2021/03/01/mining-e ... on-cycles/

https://www.verifythis.com/article/news ... 04c4b9ff95


Your first link is run by a Brussels based Green NGO whos sole mission it seems is to help decarbonize Europe. Sure, they claim to be non-partisan as do all Left Wing think tanks, but look at their major donors list, the European Union helps fund them, among others who have a vested interest in attacking fossil fuel and propping up alternative energy. Your second "Verify" link doesn't debunk any of the claims on the page as false. It simply labels a few of them "misleading". That's a common tactic of so-called fact checkers, (all which support the Left's agenda) who simply cannot show something is false but want to smear the claim anyway..

Your (paraphrasing) "Manhattan Institute is bad and biased, but my sources are impeccable and non-partisan" assertions are simply ridiculous. It's quite obvious that the major limiting factor of EV's is the battery, so it's no surprise that the ruling Leftist elite who are pushing them are mounting a major campaign to downplay the numerous negatives at the current time, the above links included.

"We can all find something, somewhere on the internet to "prove" we are right if we look hard enough" .

I also love how the radical environmentalists and their allies oversimplify the earth's ecosystem by pushing the "fragile earth" narrative at every turn. The earth is far more resilient than anyone even knows.

I remember when the BP oil spill occurred. A tragedy to be sure, but the chicken little environmentalists were all over television saying that the Gulf of Mexico would be a Dead Sea for a hundred years and the spill would kill Florida's tourist season. What happened? Well after a short while, nobody could actually find the oil spill. shrimp fisheries were running again, and the beaches of florida were clean as a whistle. The damage was certainly extensive, but the fragile earth crowd was dead wrong about a large number of predictions. The gulf was later found to have helped clean itself.

This type of sensationalism is what is also driving the EV/Green movement. The purely political notion that we need to do something immediately that will help bankrupt us and lower human standards of living in most parts of the world, rather than simply adapting to a changing earth like we've done for centuries as resilient human inhabitants is simply mind boggling. The global warming lobby certainly hasn't done itself any favors by greatly exaggerating the risks on purpose in order to scare people, while ignoring the fact that some warming has had benefits, such as the greening of the earth and longer growing seasons and greater crop yields in many parts of the world.
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Re: Compulsory electric vehicle madness

Post by Lazarus » 05 Apr 2023, 9:09 pm

Please humor me PY, why exactly do "They" want to impoverish the world and destroy the fabric of the very system that put them at the top.
That's as likely as a person cutting the rope that's holding them from falling to their death..

As to minor benefits of warming like crops in areas not usually arable, there's another side of that coin that you and your fellow deniers conveniently ignore.

That's ice loss.

That "beneficial" warming is causing catastrophic ice loss; 127 billion tons per year from Antarctica, 294 billion tons from Greenland and Iceland and 400 billion tons from the world's glaciers.
That's 811 TRILLION litres of fresh water going into the ocean, year after year.
It might only raise sea levels by a poofteenth, but it is disrupting the salinity balance that drives the Antarctic Circumpolar Current.

Don't believe me read for yourself.

https://climate.nasa.gov/interactives/g ... -viewer/#/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antarctic ... ar_Current
https://www.nsf.gov/pubs/1996/nstc96rp/sb6.htm

I have no expectations that you will be swayed by something as prosaic as proven science, there's no cabal, no conspiracy, no sinister they, just scientific fact, but I offer it anyway.
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Re: Compulsory electric vehicle madness

Post by on_one_wheel » 05 Apr 2023, 10:16 pm

Serious question, while we're pissing and moaning about sea level changes ... who can we blame for the dramatic level changes of the past?
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Re: Compulsory electric vehicle madness

Post by wanneroo » 06 Apr 2023, 12:00 am

Lazarus wrote:
wanneroo wrote:
I think we'll be fine.

Back in 1986 I remember the local TV meteorologist came to my school and said due to the greenhouse effect that by 2000 New York City and Miami would be underwater. :lol: :lol: Miami and NYC are still there in 2023, tide line in the same place. Temps are still the same too.

I also remember at the same time in school we got shown documentaries on the TVs wheeled into the classroom with VCRs about the "greenhouse effect" and how the earth was going to warm to crazy levels by the 2000s thanks to a little pollution from humans.

In fact there is a house I stay at on the Atlantic Ocean for vacation every year. The house sits on a prominent rocky bluff and has a property line and tide map from the 1880s framed on the wall in the house. The water still comes up to the exact same big boulders and line today.

Greenhouse effect then begat global warming and then when it was clear there was no real global warming it became climate change and now because we know the climate always changes it became the climate crisis and when that wasn't enough to panic people it is now the climate emergency.

One of the things I learned traveling the planet is earth is actually still pretty sparse and humans in most cases actually have a more positive impact on the land than is reported. I see it on my own land via improving it with ponds, a variety of scrub, fruit trees, woodland trees, pines, open areas, etc. It used to be pretty dead but now has a lot of wildlife here.

I have extensively looked into the data in regards to mining, manufacturing batteries, generating electricity, building a much larger grid, etc. People can believe what they want but like the "climate emergency", the numbers simply do not jive with the utopian BS we have been told.

But as a capitalist, buy what you want and in fact please buy one of these now. Myself I plan to continue with ICE engines till I'm dead, one way or another.

I plan on being around in 10 years, we can always revisit this thread and see who's math ended up right.


You say your school had a visit from a tv weather reporter in the 80s who used a bit of hyperbole to get a message across, and was off a little? That doesn't mean climate change isn't happening.

You say saw a video that said similar and got details wrong, that doesn't mean climate change isn't happening.

You say you visit a house on the coast and the tide levels haven't changed, that doesn't mean climate change isn't happening.

The climate has been disrupted by the 5 billion tonnes per year(average) of CO2 human activity puts into the air which has raised the concentration by 50% since the start of the industrial revolution.

In your "extensive" looking into data on the issue, did you look into the Antarctic Circumpolar Current and the effects anthropogenic warming has had on it and the consequences of its disruption, to name just one looming catastrophe.

I'm not a gambler, but I'd wager a goodly amount that you only "look into" sources that tell you what you want to hear, ie far right conservative sources funded no doubt by the fossil fuel industries.


The climate always changes, there are small cycles every few years, larger 30-40 year cycles and bigger 200-300 year cycles. All very well documented with tree core and ice core samples. Also documented in history as when it was warmer in the 1200-1300s the Vikings settled Greenland, only to die out when the weather turned harsh and cold again. If the climate didn't change and there were not cycles of everything, it would be a dead planet like Mars.

All the climate cult scare stuff aside, with these EVs I'm still not hearing where all this bountiful amount of electricity is coming from or who is building the infrastructure or mining all this stuff needed.

All I do is look at the data and look for congruent patterns and outcomes. Show me the outcome from whatever it is they propose about EVs whether it's making our life better and easier to live or how it's going to change the climate or whatever it is.

I read a lot of British car magazines and follow different journalists on the twitter and a lot of them swallowed the whole EV gonna save the planet thing but now they constantly bitch about how the range that is promised is never realistic in the real world, they deal with "range anxiety", finding chargers, finding chargers that work, paying high rates for electricity, sitting around for 30 minutes or an hour waiting for a charge, having to freeze in the cars because if they turn the heater on the range plummets(one of the advantages of ICE cars is they generate their own heat as a by product).
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Re: Compulsory electric vehicle madness

Post by womble » 06 Apr 2023, 4:21 am

on_one_wheel wrote:Serious question, while we're pissing and moaning about sea level changes ... who can we blame for the dramatic level changes of the past?
Screenshot_20230405-214010_DuckDuckGo.jpg


https://www.quantamagazine.org/how-earths-climate-changes-naturally-and-why-things-are-different-now-20200721/
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Re: Compulsory electric vehicle madness

Post by Lazarus » 06 Apr 2023, 4:37 am

womble wrote:
on_one_wheel wrote:Serious question, while we're pissing and moaning about sea level changes ... who can we blame for the dramatic level changes of the past?
Screenshot_20230405-214010_DuckDuckGo.jpg


https://www.quantamagazine.org/how-earths-climate-changes-naturally-and-why-things-are-different-now-20200721/


Excellent article Womble the conclusion says it all;

"If any of that sounds familiar, it’s because human activity is causing the same effects today.

As a team of researchers studying the end-Triassic event wrote in April in Nature Communications, “Our estimates suggest that the amount of CO2 that each … magmatic pulse injected into the end-Triassic atmosphere is comparable to the amount of anthropogenic emissions projected for the 21st century.”
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Re: Compulsory electric vehicle madness

Post by womble » 06 Apr 2023, 4:50 am

Yep. Going to need an ev and a snorkel
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Re: Compulsory electric vehicle madness

Post by Lazarus » 06 Apr 2023, 6:05 am

Here's another "useless EV"

""The global boss of Ram says Australia won’t miss out on the new electric flagship, which has 800km of driving range on a single charge and can tow more than 6000kg.""


https://www.drive.com.au/news/electric- ... australia/
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Re: Compulsory electric vehicle madness

Post by bladeracer » 06 Apr 2023, 12:08 pm

I think the EV charging stations should be required to be posted with where they are drawing their power from, so these morons can see that they are still burning coal to charge their environmentally friendly vehicles. We'll have to build some new coal power stations soon if everybody switches to EV.
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Re: Compulsory electric vehicle madness

Post by Lazarus » 06 Apr 2023, 1:26 pm

bladeracer wrote:I think the EV charging stations should be required to be posted with where they are drawing their power from, so these morons can see that they are still burning coal to charge their environmentally friendly vehicles. We'll have to build some new coal power stations soon if everybody switches to EV.


I think you'll find Blade, that these people you consider "morons" for making a choice different to your own, actually are aware of where the power they are using originated.

One thing that really sh!ts me is this attitude people have that anyone who does something different or with which they disagree is stupid.

There are morons amongst us, they believe the world is full of cabals, plots, plotters, conspiracies, secret shadow governments, red pills and blue pills, the manosphere(still sounds like a cheesy gay bar to me) and the best one I've heard yet, the Q bullsh!t about elite paedophile cannibals.

You don't have to like it, you don't even have to believe or accept it, but the world is changing.
Those intellectually or emotionally incapable of processing these changes can either bury their heads in the sand or perhaps just grow up and deal with reality instead of fantasy.

You've said on this very thread that you want to electrify your entire setup if you can.
Does that make you a moron for using coal fired power to do so, and what is the difference between using electricity to run everything on a farm and using it to power a car?
Other than the fact that the farm will use an order of magnitude more?
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Re: Compulsory electric vehicle madness

Post by bladeracer » 06 Apr 2023, 2:52 pm

Actually, I don't consider them morons for buying or owning, or even preferring electric, the morons are the people that take it further by espousing their own virtues for having gone EV, and trying to convince others to do the same, while deliberately blinding themselves to the reality that they're making no difference at all.

As I said earlier, switching everything on the farm over to electric is a step forward, and as we make our own electricity via twenty solar panels and a massive battery (all manufactured via coal-fired industry in China), coal doesn't enter into it (despite living within ten kilometers of the three remaining massive coal power stations in Victoria - Loy Yang A&B and Yallorn). No longer having to clean spark plugs or spend hours trying to get something to start because the electrics and fuel are cold and wet, or it's out of petrol simply lets us work more easily and efficiently.

We didn't go off-grid believing we were helping the environment, we did it because it makes our lives easier. I'm not convinced it actually saves us money since we'll have to replace the battery and the panels at some point for another twenty-grand or more, but it means we have continuous power that we didn't have before - our neighbours still have to deal with the blackouts. And we don't get the $1000 electricity bill every three months.

Not sure what you mean by the farm will use an order of magnitude more, more what? The ute and the tractor are still fed on decomposed dinosaurs, as are the bigger chainsaws and the the swingsaw, though the swingsaw is having age issues that make it's conversion to electric very close now. We rarely drive in the paddocks so none of that uses any power - it's all leg work. Our water and home heating, and cooking is all via the wood stove (since the house was built in 1961), which I know the Greens hate for its damage to the environment.

Lazarus wrote:
bladeracer wrote:I think the EV charging stations should be required to be posted with where they are drawing their power from, so these morons can see that they are still burning coal to charge their environmentally friendly vehicles. We'll have to build some new coal power stations soon if everybody switches to EV.


I think you'll find Blade, that these people you consider "morons" for making a choice different to your own, actually are aware of where the power they are using originated.

One thing that really sh!ts me is this attitude people have that anyone who does something different or with which they disagree is stupid.

There are morons amongst us, they believe the world is full of cabals, plots, plotters, conspiracies, secret shadow governments, red pills and blue pills, the manosphere(still sounds like a cheesy gay bar to me) and the best one I've heard yet, the Q bullsh!t about elite paedophile cannibals.

You don't have to like it, you don't even have to believe or accept it, but the world is changing.
Those intellectually or emotionally incapable of processing these changes can either bury their heads in the sand or perhaps just grow up and deal with reality instead of fantasy.

You've said on this very thread that you want to electrify your entire setup if you can.
Does that make you a moron for using coal fired power to do so, and what is the difference between using electricity to run everything on a farm and using it to power a car?
Other than the fact that the farm will use an order of magnitude more?
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Re: Compulsory electric vehicle madness

Post by niteowl » 06 Apr 2023, 4:01 pm

bladeracer wrote:Actually, I don't consider them morons for buying or owning, or even preferring electric, the morons are the people that take it further by espousing their own virtues for having gone EV, and trying to convince others to do the same, while deliberately blinding themselves to the reality that they're making no difference at all.

As I said earlier, switching everything on the farm over to electric is a step forward, and as we make our own electricity via twenty solar panels and a massive battery (all manufactured via coal-fired industry in China), coal doesn't enter into it (despite living within ten kilometers of the three remaining massive coal power stations in Victoria - Loy Yang A&B and Yallorn). No longer having to clean spark plugs or spend hours trying to get something to start because the electrics and fuel are cold and wet, or it's out of petrol simply lets us work more easily and efficiently.

We didn't go off-grid believing we were helping the environment, we did it because it makes our lives easier. I'm not convinced it actually saves us money since we'll have to replace the battery and the panels at some point for another twenty-grand or more, but it means we have continuous power that we didn't have before - our neighbours still have to deal with the blackouts. And we don't get the $1000 electricity bill every three months.

Not sure what you mean by the farm will use an order of magnitude more, more what? The ute and the tractor are still fed on decomposed dinosaurs, as are the bigger chainsaws and the the swingsaw, though the swingsaw is having age issues that make it's conversion to electric very close now. We rarely drive in the paddocks so none of that uses any power - it's all leg work. Our water and home heating, and cooking is all via the wood stove (since the house was built in 1961), which I know the Greens hate for its damage to the environment.

Interesting comments, your statement in blue is so correct in many ways, those in red are also well to the point as Solar Panels are NOT clean and green as people think. All the pollution, and a lot of it, has been produced long before you see a panel.
While they sit in the sun producing electricity and smiling sweetly they look so good. Getting rid of the U/S panels is a huge problem already, although this is being investigated.
I had the "privilege" of being closely involved with a silicon smelter and learned some interesting facts.

PS. AND YES, I DO USE THEM PERSONALLY

Lazarus wrote:
bladeracer wrote:I think the EV charging stations should be required to be posted with where they are drawing their power from, so these morons can see that they are still burning coal to charge their environmentally friendly vehicles. We'll have to build some new coal power stations soon if everybody switches to EV.


I think you'll find Blade, that these people you consider "morons" for making a choice different to your own, actually are aware of where the power they are using originated.

One thing that really sh!ts me is this attitude people have that anyone who does something different or with which they disagree is stupid.

There are morons amongst us, they believe the world is full of cabals, plots, plotters, conspiracies, secret shadow governments, red pills and blue pills, the manosphere(still sounds like a cheesy gay bar to me) and the best one I've heard yet, the Q bullsh!t about elite paedophile cannibals.

You don't have to like it, you don't even have to believe or accept it, but the world is changing.
Those intellectually or emotionally incapable of processing these changes can either bury their heads in the sand or perhaps just grow up and deal with reality instead of fantasy.

You've said on this very thread that you want to electrify your entire setup if you can.
Does that make you a moron for using coal fired power to do so, and what is the difference between using electricity to run everything on a farm and using it to power a car?
Other than the fact that the farm will use an order of magnitude more?
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Re: Compulsory electric vehicle madness

Post by Lazarus » 06 Apr 2023, 6:26 pm

bladeracer wrote:Actually, I don't consider them morons for buying or owning, or even preferring electric, the morons are the people that take it further by espousing their own virtues for having gone EV, and trying to convince others to do the same, while deliberately blinding themselves to the reality that they're making no difference at all.

As I said earlier, switching everything on the farm over to electric is a step forward, and as we make our own electricity via twenty solar panels and a massive battery (all manufactured via coal-fired industry in China), coal doesn't enter into it (despite living within ten kilometers of the three remaining massive coal power stations in Victoria - Loy Yang A&B and Yallorn). No longer having to clean spark plugs or spend hours trying to get something to start because the electrics and fuel are cold and wet, or it's out of petrol simply lets us work more easily and efficiently.

We didn't go off-grid believing we were helping the environment, we did it because it makes our lives easier. I'm not convinced it actually saves us money since we'll have to replace the battery and the panels at some point for another twenty-grand or more, but it means we have continuous power that we didn't have before - our neighbours still have to deal with the blackouts. And we don't get the $1000 electricity bill every three months.

Not sure what you mean by the farm will use an order of magnitude more, more what? The ute and the tractor are still fed on decomposed dinosaurs, as are the bigger chainsaws and the the swingsaw, though the swingsaw is having age issues that make it's conversion to electric very close now. We rarely drive in the paddocks so none of that uses any power - it's all leg work. Our water and home heating, and cooking is all via the wood stove (since the house was built in 1961), which I know the Greens hate for its damage to the environment.

Lazarus wrote:
bladeracer wrote:I think the EV charging stations should be required to be posted with where they are drawing their power from, so these morons can see that they are still burning coal to charge their environmentally friendly vehicles. We'll have to build some new coal power stations soon if everybody switches to EV.


I think you'll find Blade, that these people you consider "morons" for making a choice different to your own, actually are aware of where the power they are using originated.

One thing that really sh!ts me is this attitude people have that anyone who does something different or with which they disagree is stupid.

There are morons amongst us, they believe the world is full of cabals, plots, plotters, conspiracies, secret shadow governments, red pills and blue pills, the manosphere(still sounds like a cheesy gay bar to me) and the best one I've heard yet, the Q bullsh!t about elite paedophile cannibals.

You don't have to like it, you don't even have to believe or accept it, but the world is changing.
Those intellectually or emotionally incapable of processing these changes can either bury their heads in the sand or perhaps just grow up and deal with reality instead of fantasy.

You've said on this very thread that you want to electrify your entire setup if you can.
Does that make you a moron for using coal fired power to do so, and what is the difference between using electricity to run everything on a farm and using it to power a car?
Other than the fact that the farm will use an order of magnitude more?



My apologies Blade, I had forgotten your plan was off grid.

As usual, Australia is lagging the world on EVs, like we do on so many other things, with the world average in 2022 of EV sales being 14% of total, up from 9% the previous year.
Because of deliberate conservative government policies and scare campaigns for the easily misled, we only managed 3.8%.
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Re: Compulsory electric vehicle madness

Post by bladeracer » 06 Apr 2023, 7:11 pm

Lazarus wrote:My apologies Blade, I had forgotten your plan was off grid.

As usual, Australia is lagging the world on EVs, like we do on so many other things, with the world average in 2022 of EV sales being 14% of total, up from 9% the previous year.
Because of deliberate conservative government policies and scare campaigns for the easily misled, we only managed 3.8%.


No worries, Laz, can be difficult to track these things in convoluted conversations.

If this was merely about whether Aussie companies should get into making EV's to fill world market demands then definitely get stuck in. There are plenty of businesses making money out of it. I just hate seeing people being sucked into these things to spend vast amounts of money while making their lives more difficult because they're told it's better for the environment, when it isn't at all. China is the big bugbear of pollution, yet they're the ones making the pollution to create the EV's and reaping the huge profits from doing so.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_vehicle_industry_in_China
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Re: Compulsory electric vehicle madness

Post by wanneroo » 07 Apr 2023, 1:45 am

bladeracer wrote:I think the EV charging stations should be required to be posted with where they are drawing their power from, so these morons can see that they are still burning coal to charge their environmentally friendly vehicles. We'll have to build some new coal power stations soon if everybody switches to EV.


A lot of coal power stations.

The power has to come from something and haven't seen any answers where it's coming from.

Also haven't seen who is building all these huge electrical substations to replace liquid fuel pumps with electric chargers.
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Re: Compulsory electric vehicle madness

Post by womble » 07 Apr 2023, 4:14 am

I see them around, but I travel around country a lot, and a lot of that’s of the beaten track. And I get lost a lot.
Wind turbine farms, huge actually, biggest in the southern hemisphere. Pumped hydro reservoirs. Which I expect we’ll be seeing a lot more of because it’s a storage alternative to a battery.
Solar farms. How can you miss them. They’re freaking everywhere.
Not expecting new coal power stations in vic though tbh. Existing ones in vic will all be finished up in a few years. Winding them down now.
Don’t even know why I need to address that lol. That’s like we’re getting new steam trains.
I believe QLD has some in the pipeline. Whether or not they go ahead or currently are I don’t know.
These are the people who can’t even spell beer. So who knows.
Who’s building the new stuff. Big companies. Oceanx, Vestas, GE, Nordex. etc. They offer you a turnkey package for your country these days.

This is like having a discussion with someone who hasn’t seen beyond the four walls of the room they’re in for 20 years.
I suspect that’s why Geoff posted this thread is done as soon as climate deniers piped in.
It’s been nearly 10 years since exxonmoblil was subpoenaed under the freedom of information act, and these clowns are still noooo but this but this
f***ing ridiculous. :D
It’s really no different than what happened to big tobacco. Well except that it’s worse. But anyway. We’ll still be able to drive around our ice stick shifts for a long time yet. Probably just won’t be able to buy a brand new one in 10 years or so time. At least not from a major manufacturer.
Last edited by womble on 07 Apr 2023, 4:58 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Compulsory electric vehicle madness

Post by womble » 07 Apr 2023, 4:40 am

Clowns was generalising. We have a few forum members who are perhaps a bit eccentric :)
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Re: Compulsory electric vehicle madness

Post by Lazarus » 07 Apr 2023, 7:29 am

womble wrote:We’ll still be able to drive around our ice stick shifts for a long time yet. Probably just won’t be able to buy a brand new one in 10 years or so time. At least not from a major manufacturer.


And there it is.

The fukking point, ladies and gentlemen.

Nobody is coming to take away your ICE vehicles.
Nobody.
It's simply a plan to eventually stop importing them, now that the conservatives have successfully destroyed our car manufacturing.

So how about we flush the sand from our collective vaginas and settle down.
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Re: Compulsory electric vehicle madness

Post by on_one_wheel » 07 Apr 2023, 9:04 am

When most people are driving ev's, I'll be banging around in something like this just to piss off the environmental Karen's
Screenshot_20230407-083129_DuckDuckGo.jpg
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