Putting The Stage Three Cuts In Context

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Putting The Stage Three Cuts In Context

Post by Lazarus » 28 Apr 2023, 10:51 am

As we all know, Labor, the supposed "party for the little guy" has locked in the egregious $243 billion worth of tax cuts for the wealthy, including of course, themselves, while crying poor when it comes to meaningful relief for those of us scraping the bottom.

The article below puts these cuts into perspective in a very visible way.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-04-28/ ... /102268304
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Re: Putting The Stage Three Cuts In Context

Post by Over The Hill » 28 Apr 2023, 9:28 pm

Not everyone who will benefit from the stage 3 tax cuts would be considered as "wealthy" by my standard including myself. I work hard for my income and it grates me to give 1/3 annual income in tax and yet not be eligible for 99% of any government benefits. I don't mind contributing to the tax man in principal as after all the money has to come from somewhere but I think its a bit rich (or poor) of the vast majority who have already benefited from stage 1 & 2 tax cuts over the past few years to be complaining about the rest finally getting some tax relief. Personally i still think the tax bracket system stinks as it heavily penalises those who generate higher incomes. If you think these cuts are unfair then surely a flat tax rate applied to everyone would be be fairer way to go. Anyway Labour made pre-election promises to uphold the changes initiated by the coalition government so its not new policy. The majority of the so called "wealthy" most likely already have means of avoiding paying their fair share to tax so in my opinion its the lower end of what is classed as "High Income Workers" that will benefit most. These are people that will put that extra money straight back though spending which benefits the wider community. There is a media campaign that is implying that everyone eligible for these tax cuts are super rich and living in luxury. I can assure you that that is not the case and am looking forward to having a bit more disposable income next year once the tax rates are adjusted. My local gun store will be one of the first to benefit, especially if he has stock of ammo and reloading supplies.
Everyone's circumstances and perspective are different of course, I can only express mine and im sure plenty of people will disagree with me and voice their opinion but that's one of the benefits of living in a democracy, everyone can have their say and not everyone has to agree.
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Re: Putting The Stage Three Cuts In Context

Post by Amityville » 28 Apr 2023, 9:45 pm

Lazarus wrote:As we all know, Labor, the supposed "party for the little guy" has locked in the egregious $243 billion worth of tax cuts for the wealthy, including of course, themselves, while crying poor when it comes to meaningful relief for those of us scraping the bottom.

The article below puts these cuts into perspective in a very visible way.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-04-28/ ... /102268304


What makes you think Labour won't pull the rug out? They've already started with your super when promised they wouldn't touch it prior to election.
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Re: Putting The Stage Three Cuts In Context

Post by Lazarus » 28 Apr 2023, 11:08 pm

Over The Hill wrote:Not everyone who will benefit from the stage 3 tax cuts would be considered as "wealthy" by my standard including myself. I work hard for my income and it grates me to give 1/3 annual income in tax and yet not be eligible for 99% of any government benefits. I don't mind contributing to the tax man in principal as after all the money has to come from somewhere but I think its a bit rich (or poor) of the vast majority who have already benefited from stage 1 & 2 tax cuts over the past few years to be complaining about the rest finally getting some tax relief. Personally i still think the tax bracket system stinks as it heavily penalises those who generate higher incomes. If you think these cuts are unfair then surely a flat tax rate applied to everyone would be be fairer way to go. Anyway Labour made pre-election promises to uphold the changes initiated by the coalition government so its not new policy. The majority of the so called "wealthy" most likely already have means of avoiding paying their fair share to tax so in my opinion its the lower end of what is classed as "High Income Workers" that will benefit most. These are people that will put that extra money straight back though spending which benefits the wider community. There is a media campaign that is implying that everyone eligible for these tax cuts are super rich and living in luxury. I can assure you that that is not the case and am looking forward to having a bit more disposable income next year once the tax rates are adjusted. My local gun store will be one of the first to benefit, especially if he has stock of ammo and reloading supplies.
Everyone's circumstances and perspective are different of course, I can only express mine and im sure plenty of people will disagree with me and voice their opinion but that's one of the benefits of living in a democracy, everyone can have their say and not everyone has to agree.


It's all relative OTH, you may not consider yourself wealthy, but to someone who is faced with the choice of buying their medicines or feeding their kids you are.

These cuts kick in for those earning above $60K, with the majority going to those earning more than $180K or ~$3500/ week.
Believe me, to people forced through no fault of their own to rely on welfare assistance, someone taking home that sort of money lives in a totally different reality.

Your statement that these cuts will allow you to spend more on your hobby is a fitting example.
Nothing at all wrong with doing that, but for those on the bottom, just feeding their children or keeping a roof over their heads leaves no room for toys.

The way the cuts are structured, the more one earns the more one will get.
Someone on $60K will get a tax cut of $375/year, but someone earning $200K will get over $9000 extra.

If the Low and Middle Income Tax Offset is not extended it will end this financial year and will mean 90% of taxpayers will be paying more tax.
Even after the stage 3 tax cuts come in, 80% of all taxpayers will still be worse off.
The LMITO goes to middle income earners with a maximum rate of $1,080. If the LMITO is not extended in the budget later this month occupations like teachers, nurses and midwives will be paying $1080 more in tax.

It's simply human nature that the recipients of this largesse will feel they deserve it, but it just widens and further entrenches the gulf between haves and have nots.

Leaving aside how it could help lift millions out of poverty, our national infrastructure is in a parlous state, and $243 billion could solve a lot of problems in that area alone.

Please don't get me wrong, I don't begrudge those receiving this huge bounty, it just seems, from the point of view of a disability pensioner, that it would be far fairer used elsewhere.

While writing this, I heard on the news that the government is also cutting $50 billion from the NDIS on which so many rely for a semblance of life.
I'm afraid I see nothing remotely fair in all this.
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Re: Putting The Stage Three Cuts In Context

Post by Oldbloke » 28 Apr 2023, 11:44 pm

Those tax cut were passed 5 years ago when the economy was totally different. They were an LNP initiative. IMO ALP voted for them under duress and had little choice politicaly.

Now the budget is in strife. And they can't win. If they don't get the budget out of deficit the LNP will scream poor money managers. If they change/reduce the tax cuts inorder to fix the budget the LNP will scream broken promise.

The rich are getting richer, the poor, poorer. That was of course the aim of the LNP tax cuts.

If we want better services, hospitals schools, defence, roads etc the government needs to increase revenue.

Reducing those tax cuts are the obvious thing to do. And force the big overseas companies that relieve us of our resources pay too. Currently they pay SFA.

Perhaps the ALP will take reducing them to the next election.
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Re: Putting The Stage Three Cuts In Context

Post by Lazarus » 29 Apr 2023, 12:04 am

All true OB.

Labor learned a big lesson when they brought in the carbon price, they were thoroughly excoriated for doing the right thing the wrong way.

The Lying Non-stop Party had a field day while conveniently ignoring little johnny howler's broken "No GST, never ever" promise.

To be totally honest, I'd be far happier if they put that quarter of a trillion dollars they are giving to people already doing damn well into developing a sovereign long range defence network.
If they threw in the half a trillion for the one-day-maybe-never white elephant submarines, just imagine what could be done.
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Re: Putting The Stage Three Cuts In Context

Post by Oldbloke » 29 Apr 2023, 7:17 am

The thing people need to realise is the Gov can't balance the budget now. We are continually increasing our debt.

The $243 billion reduction in revenue will make the situation worse. Its inevitable that down the road services, pensions etc will be severely cut. It's nuts.
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Re: Putting The Stage Three Cuts In Context

Post by Lazarus » 29 Apr 2023, 8:26 am

Funny thing OB, just the other day a mate and I were talking about how, despite all the technological progress humanity have made, we still live in a feudal system where half of the world's net wealth belongs to the top 1%, top 10% of adults hold 85%, while the bottom 90% hold the remaining 15% of the world's total wealth, top 30% of adults hold 97% of the total wealth.

During the worst of the pandemic when many millions of people were going, and are still going backwards, that 1% doubled their wealth.

Rich cnuts don't get richer by robbing other rich cnuts, they do it by putting more people into deeper poverty.
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Re: Putting The Stage Three Cuts In Context

Post by Oldbloke » 29 Apr 2023, 9:45 am

"During the worst of the pandemic when many millions of people were going, and are still going backwards, that 1% doubled their wealth"

Yeh, I read something along those lines too.
I think mainly cheap finance to buy property and that property has now increased in value. Lots of government cash too.
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Re: Putting The Stage Three Cuts In Context

Post by Lazarus » 29 Apr 2023, 11:06 am

Oldbloke wrote:"During the worst of the pandemic when many millions of people were going, and are still going backwards, that 1% doubled their wealth"

Yeh, I read something along those lines too.
I think mainly cheap finance to buy property and that property has now increased in value. Lots of government cash too.


What annoys me most about these cuts is that they're not sticking with them for economic reasons, it's just purely political.
They're willing to drop a quarter of a trillion out of general revenue just for political face saving.
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Re: Putting The Stage Three Cuts In Context

Post by Oldbloke » 29 Apr 2023, 12:04 pm

Lazarus wrote:
Oldbloke wrote:"During the worst of the pandemic when many millions of people were going, and are still going backwards, that 1% doubled their wealth"

Yeh, I read something along those lines too.
I think mainly cheap finance to buy property and that property has now increased in value. Lots of government cash too.


What annoys me most about these cuts is that they're not sticking with them for economic reasons, it's just purely political.
They're willing to drop a quarter of a trillion out of general revenue just for political face saving.
Sumbitches


It was an election promise. If they cut them it will be a never ending "you broke an election promise" and ALP is the taxing party by the MSM & LNP.
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Re: Putting The Stage Three Cuts In Context

Post by Lazarus » 29 Apr 2023, 12:28 pm

That brings up something else, nobody wants to pay tax, but everyone expects services and infrastructure, as though we can just keep printing money until we have runaway inflation and a monster deficit like the eye watering US deficit of $31trillion
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Re: Putting The Stage Three Cuts In Context

Post by Oldbloke » 29 Apr 2023, 12:35 pm

Yep.

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Re: Putting The Stage Three Cuts In Context

Post by Lazarus » 29 Apr 2023, 1:07 pm

Oldbloke wrote:Yep.

welcome-to-kindergarten.jpg



:clap: :drinks:
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Re: Putting The Stage Three Cuts In Context

Post by Ed9362 » 05 May 2023, 8:20 am

Gotta say, i get sick of people who pay no meaningful tax complaining that other people don't pay enough.
just because someone has more money than you doesn't mean you are entitled to a piece of what they have earned.
the only fair and equal way to pay tax would be a flat 20% for everyone.
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Re: Putting The Stage Three Cuts In Context

Post by Gamerancher » 05 May 2023, 8:53 am

Well said mate...
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Re: Putting The Stage Three Cuts In Context

Post by Lazarus » 05 May 2023, 10:06 am

Ed9362 wrote:Gotta say, i get sick of people who pay no meaningful tax complaining that other people don't pay enough.
just because someone has more money than you doesn't mean you are entitled to a piece of what they have earned.
the only fair and equal way to pay tax would be a flat 20% for everyone.


That's as naively selfish as saying that the GST is fair because it's a "consumption" tax.

Someone living on or below the poverty line, and none who do, do so by choice, get that straight in your head, doesn't need to eat less or use less power than someone on $3,000 per week.

It's all about the percentage of your budget that goes to essentials.
For most disabled, unemployed, or elderly people, just their rent alone takes a huge bite, mine is 45% of my disability pension.
Then there's power, phone, prescriptions, doctors visits, and with whatever is left, food.

When I was still able to work, I was happy to pay tax, because as an adult, I realise and accept that those services we all want and need have to come from somewhere.

If a struggling family gets a couple of dollars more they get some essential item they can't usually afford, like new shoes for their children.
When someone doing well enough to be in line for these egregious tax breaks gets some extra, they go on holidays or buy a new toy.

There is a psychological quirk in humans that seems to drive greed, the more they have or earn, the more they want and feel they deserve, and in most cases, the less of a sh!t they give for those who have to make the distressing choices that those without have to make every day. Your comment above is a perfect example of the "I'm all right Jack" attitude.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I%27m_alr ... aying%20it.

The Time article below is based on an American study, but it translates to this country just as well.

https://time.com/62256/are-taxes-fair-i ... ably-poor/



Further to the above Ed, nobody is saying you "don't pay enough", nobody is suggesting that you pay more, just that you don't need to pay less.
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Re: Putting The Stage Three Cuts In Context

Post by Ed9362 » 05 May 2023, 11:15 am

I'm happy to pay tax, obviously it is necessary and i don't begrudge contributing to unemployment etc.
However, the increased cost of living has affected everyone and reducing the impact to other peoples lifestyle is not my concern.

The proposed tax cuts will have a small impact on my net income but i would say its laughable that everyone was happy to have the tax breaks when it impacted themselves but now the long awaited cut for the "rich" (who probably are not even close to rich) are coming the so called poor need that money to buy them stuff.

Who exactly are the selfish people here? the people who would like to keep the money they earn or the ones who insist they need it more. Maybe try not to confuse generosity with entitlement
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Re: Putting The Stage Three Cuts In Context

Post by CRF » 05 May 2023, 12:12 pm

“Wealthy” people always crack me up, folks who want a tax break to spend a bit more at a gun shop or on this or that should try living at the bottom of society and see how tough they really have it.
I guarantee there are plenty of people working a lot harder than you for a lot less money.

Just like Turnbull said few years back, if house prices are too dear for your kids, just buy them one!
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Re: Putting The Stage Three Cuts In Context

Post by Billo » 05 May 2023, 12:19 pm

What has surprised me is that Labor has been in power for only 12 months and look like delivering a Budget surplus next week

Makes you wonder what the Liberals pissed away our money on ??
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Re: Putting The Stage Three Cuts In Context

Post by Oldbloke » 05 May 2023, 12:31 pm

I don't think this thread will end well.

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Re: Putting The Stage Three Cuts In Context

Post by Lazarus » 05 May 2023, 12:50 pm

Ed9362 wrote:I'm happy to pay tax, obviously it is necessary and i don't begrudge contributing to unemployment etc.
However, the increased cost of living has affected everyone and reducing the impact to other peoples lifestyle is not my concern.

The proposed tax cuts will have a small impact on my net income but i would say its laughable that everyone was happy to have the tax breaks when it impacted themselves but now the long awaited cut for the "rich" (who probably are not even close to rich) are coming the so called poor need that money to buy them stuff.

Who exactly are the selfish people here? the people who would like to keep the money they earn or the ones who insist they need it more. Maybe try not to confuse generosity with entitlement


1: your selfish indifference to the suffering of those who have nothing is already patently clear, there was no need to repeat it.

2: you say these tax cuts will only have a small effect on your income, lucky you. You call those on the bottom, "the so called poor", your arrogance is staggering, you are truly the embodiment of "I'm all right Jack" and obviously proud of it.

3: you are plainly deliberately misconstruing the issue, so I'll type this slowly for you, nobody is suggesting you should pay more.

Your final paragraph doesn't even make sense,.
What generosity, certainly not yours, certainly not the government's, as we are 23rd out of 36 of the OECD nations in regards to our care for the less fortunate as a percentageof GDP.
As to entitlement, I don't even know how to explain this to someone like you seem to be.
You are the one exhibiting entitlement here, you are still deliberately trying to paint this as a suggestion that you should pay more tax, if there has been such a suggestion, point it out.

Also as to entitlement, are the children born into poverty not entitled to have the basics in one of the richest nations on the planet?

I realise that trying to explain this to you is a Quixotic endeavour, but it needs to be said.
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Re: Putting The Stage Three Cuts In Context

Post by Lazarus » 05 May 2023, 12:52 pm

Glad you find the subject amusing OB.
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Re: Putting The Stage Three Cuts In Context

Post by Lazarus » 05 May 2023, 12:56 pm

Billo wrote:What has surprised me is that Labor has been in power for only 12 months and look like delivering a Budget surplus next week

Makes you wonder what the Liberals pissed away our money on ??



Good point Billo.
One has to be careful, but look into former ministers, offshore shelf companies and water rights.

What unfortunately doesn't surprise me is seeing the so called party of the little guy making a purely political choice to cut a quarter of a trillion from forward estimates by giving money to those who need it least.
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Re: Putting The Stage Three Cuts In Context

Post by Oldbloke » 05 May 2023, 1:01 pm

Lazarus wrote:Glad you find the subject amusing OB.


The subject is not. But the thread is doomed to be locked. Lol

Frankly, given the desperate need for funds in some quarters I think its madness to go ahead with the cuts.

I was glad to see nursing home staff will get a pay rise.

Defence, pensions, unemployed, medicare and a few more all need additional funding. Won't happen if these tax cuts go ahead.
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Re: Putting The Stage Three Cuts In Context

Post by Lazarus » 05 May 2023, 1:04 pm

Oldbloke wrote:
Lazarus wrote:Glad you find the subject amusing OB.


The subject is not. But the direction of the thread is.

Frankly, given the desperate need for funds in some quarters I think its madness to go ahead with the cuts.

I was glad to see nursing home staff will get a pay rise.

Defence, pensions, unemployed, medicare and a few more all need additional funding. Won't happen if these tax cuts go ahead.


I was being facetious OB.

I think I know where your sentiments lie.

This is what we get when we have a Doctor of political "science" instead of an economist as treasurer
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Re: Putting The Stage Three Cuts In Context

Post by Oldbloke » 05 May 2023, 1:05 pm

Oldbloke wrote:Those tax cut were passed 5 years ago when the economy was totally different. They were an LNP initiative. IMO ALP voted for them under duress and had little choice politicaly.

Now the budget is in strife. And they can't win. If they don't get the budget out of deficit the LNP will scream poor money managers. If they change/reduce the tax cuts inorder to fix the budget the LNP will scream broken promise.

The rich are getting richer, the poor, poorer. That was of course the aim of the LNP tax cuts.

If we want better services, hospitals schools, defence, roads etc the government needs to increase revenue.

Reducing those tax cuts are the obvious thing to do. And force the big overseas companies that relieve us of our resources pay too. Currently they pay SFA.

Perhaps the ALP will take reducing them to the next election.
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Re: Putting The Stage Three Cuts In Context

Post by S O K A R » 05 May 2023, 9:14 pm

The joys of modern day slavery, funnily enough because there are no shackles and chains people think its a thing of the past...
Keep the little guy poor whilst the rich get richer, thats the way the economic machine works & that won't change no matter what government we have.
Better chance of winning the lottery then that happening....

Fine example here in Tasmania, healthcare system is in desperate need as is the aged care sector, homelessness is getting worse and worse amongst other things, yet the government decides to build a multi-million dollar football stadium (750 million was the figure thrown around) smack bang in the middle of Hobart when we already have multiple stadiums which do the job just fine.
Priorities are in order by the looks of things....
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Re: Putting The Stage Three Cuts In Context

Post by Lazarus » 07 May 2023, 9:56 am

S O K A R wrote:The joys of modern day slavery, funnily enough because there are no shackles and chains people think its a thing of the past...
Keep the little guy poor whilst the rich get richer, thats the way the economic machine works & that won't change no matter what government we have.
Better chance of winning the lottery then that happening....

Fine example here in Tasmania, healthcare system is in desperate need as is the aged care sector, homelessness is getting worse and worse amongst other things, yet the government decides to build a multi-million dollar football stadium (750 million was the figure thrown around) smack bang in the middle of Hobart when we already have multiple stadiums which do the job just fine.
Priorities are in order by the looks of things....


Albo is a strange one, eh?
Hobnobbing with shockjocks and gangsters, jetting off(at the Aussie taxpayer's expense) to the outdated ceremony for an entitled(in both senses) billionaire that cost the Pommy taxpayer $186 million, rabbiting on about the need for public housing and building a superfluous stadium on land that could have housed thousands of Taswegians for much less money.
All the while, him and Chalming Jim keep up the mantra of "Liberal debt", debt they approved without batting an eyelid, debt that for once was actually put to good use.

I hope, with my above rants, that I haven't given the impression that I am demanding more for me.
I would like more, obviously, but I personally don't need more.
I have secure housing, I have enough to eat and as long as I don't waste too much on non-essentials, I can pay my bills from my pension.
The people for whom I'm speaking are like those below.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-05-07/ ... /102119634
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And that's why life is hard
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Lazarus
Warrant Officer C1
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New South Wales

Re: Putting The Stage Three Cuts In Context

Post by Lazarus » 10 May 2023, 3:18 pm

This isn't directly related to this subject, but rather than start a separate thread I'll put it here.

The article below is yet another example of why Australia gets little more than an arse full of steam for our resources.

Both Andrew Forrest and BP have more money than Croesus, yet the bloody gummint is handing them billions in subsidies to start a new money printing venture.
This on top of the hugely generous depreciation they get for setup costs.

The 1% at work making themselves richer at taxpayer's expense yet again.
What a cockshow.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-05-10/ ... /102326878
Courage is knowing it might
hurt, and doing it anyway.
Stupidity is the same
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And that's why life is hard
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Lazarus
Warrant Officer C1
Warrant Officer C1
 
Posts: 1429
New South Wales

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