The Voice

[mchughcb]

With Marcia Langton at the helm its fantastic. You go girlfriend. Sell the message, and if you don't agree then call them whatever pops out of your mouth. You are just not a likelable person.

[womble]

Last week I listened to Marcia Langton on Radio National being interviewed in response to the headline that she accused No voters of being racist and stupid.
Although she denied the headline she then spoke for a good 15 minutes, largely uninterrupted, explaining just how No voters are racist and stupid.
The incongruity of this form of argument eludes a conscious understanding by most people and is a technique favoured by cultural marxists. Namely accuse your opponent of the things you are in reality doing.
I don't believe that the overwhelming majority of Australians are racist in the current understanding of the term.
Especially when one considers that, by definition, the referendum proposal is acutely racist.
There are also other matters not finding their way into popular discussion such as what is the definition of an indigenous Australian or in other words who is and who isn't indigenous.
At this point in time polling indicates it is looking like the vote will be 60% No against 40% Yes, in spite of the massive amount of corporate direct funding and indirect support.

I don’t know if it is acutely racist. But it is acutely racial.
Whatever that means in the context of the current understanding of the term. And those goalposts do keep moving.
You do raise a great point. Who’s voice is it.

[bladeracer]

The problem has always been that the money from these things always gets funnelled into a handful of pockets and none of it ever reaches the people that are entitled to benefit from it. I was building $110,000 houses on remote communities thirty years ago where so many of the locals were starving, it was ridiculous unloading $50,000 truck loads of material while people were sitting around in the bush with nothing to eat. All of that money could have been much more usefully spread across the entire community instead of locking it up in a handful of houses that they really didn't want anyway (all of these houses were washed away in the expected floods anyway...again.). I see exactly the same result from this disaster, it will make a handful of city people very wealthy and totally ignore the people in the communities.

The debate around it is alarming though. I think they should just scrap it.
Reasoning being it’s not closing the gap before it’s even begun.
I like the concept of doing something really big for them . Because we haven’t been great historically.
And it’s recent history too and continues today. Anyone being honest with themselves has seen some of them mistreated in their lives, growing up. Even if you didn’t partake in it personally. I’ve seen it and I do reflect on it.
They truly do deserve some kind of reckoning and celebration.
There’s no doubt they are a disadvantaged segment of society even with all goods intentions.
But you need bipartisan support otherwise we get this mess.
If we could just take some time out, postpone it, tweak it a bit. Get the discussion turned around till more people are on board with it all.

[womble]

51% or above Pygmy dna seems acceptable.

[womble]

Yes your past experiences hold weight bladeracer. And I don’t see how we don’t repeat the same mistakes.

[Billo]

Looks like a massive own goal from Warren Mundine

Leading No campaigner Warren Mundine claims a treaty process will be more successful if No vote wins.

Leading No campaigner Warren Mundine has backed a treaty process, claiming it's more likely to succeed if the No vote is successful

[stihl88]

Keep going fellas you're doing a great job of making shooters look like well rounded people of a modern world.

So no debate, rebuke or discussion on the topic from you Geoff just straight to chastisement?

The "yes" side consider the rest of to be racists and not worth talking to.

Yep straight from the old play book... Good thing we're still mostly in a Democracy.

[stihl88]

Keep going fellas you're doing a great job of making shooters look like well rounded people of a modern world.

So no debate, rebuke or discussion on the topic from you Geoff just straight to chastisement?

I'm not sure why just an Advisory body has so many alarmed ?? its not like Legislation is being changed.

This ain't no treaty, the States can move down that path if they like.

Not sure that Dutton and Morrison are making the LNP any more electable

For me it's the people behind it, some of the organizers openly align themselves with ideologies not compatible with this country. If they had it their way these radicals would flip Australia on it's head and destroy everything our forebears fought for.

People are either naive on this or part of the problem.

[womble]

For me it's being ranked in the constitution as a second nations person by default.
Feels like second class citizen.
No free democracy does that. A citizen is a citizen.
This is my home. This is my land.
It should not matter how long you've been here or how many generations of your family before you. All citizens must be equal.
If some are less equal than others you don't live in a free country. No man is free unless all are.

[stihl88]

For me it's being ranked in the constitution as a second nations person by default.
Feels like second class citizen.
No free democracy does that. A citizen is a citizen.
This is my home. This is my land.
It should not matter how long you've been here or how many generations of your family before you. All citizens must be equal.
If some are less equal than others you don't live in a free country. No man is free unless all are.

Well said

[Billo]

So Warren Mundine from the No camp wants Australia day cancelled or changed, has the No camp run off the rails ??

First they are calling for a Treaty or Treaties and now cancelling Australia Day.

[womble]

Treaty with the emus maybe. That’s the only documented war.

[allthegearandnoidea]

That's because history is written by the victors.

This voice thing is not race based. It's about indigeneity. (See Sami in Finland- they're white )
I can't understand why anyone is threatened by an advisory committee to govt about matters relating to Aboriginal affairs
It's not like they have any power to disburse funds or make laws
If you want to see real power and money check out the multinational lobby groups that funnel money to government
The lump of coal Scomo brandished in parliament was handed to him by an "adviser " from the Minerals Council. The other side have the occasional prompting from the unions too
Yep - we all get an equal say in our democracy
As for treaties, all states except NSW have already got treaty processes underway. The horse has bolted on that one
What surprises me is the ease with which both sides have been able to use scaremongering tactics so effectively

[womble]

Not at all threatened by their advisory body to government. They already have many. They’ve always had them and that’s a good thing.
If the governments not listening then someone is not doing their job properly and should get the ass. You shouldn’t need to change the constitution because your elected representatives don’t listen to you.

Absolutely the multinationals and fossil fuel overlords feel threatened , hence the right wing demonisation of it came in hard and fast with newscorp and sky news. There is a genuine potential for the voice to stop a new coal mine being opened. And this is GInas country not ours. Her and her ilk will sink everything into stopping this.

But that’s not my gripe with it. Nor is it the gripe coming from left of center. The working poor. And it’s a fair chunk of them if the polls are to be believed.
We don’t get any handouts or special privileges and we don’t see them as any different or less capable in society than us. They have the means and resources to improve their lot. They have the opportunities. They have an edge and favouritism should they choose to compete for a better life like the rest of us. And that’s fine too because they’re competing from a disadvantaged segment of society.
But now you want to make our constitution elevate their status in society. That’s unfair. They’re no better than us.
The constitution must reflect everyone’s hopes and dreams and aspirations. Everybody. All of us. Not some more than others.

My second gripe is so much money and resources are going into something that we know will fail. By any and all polling.
And it’s desperately needed elsewhere in a struggling economy. People are doing it real hard. Everyone’s mortgage and utilities has doubled.

My third gripe is the the Lnp’s gun buyback being highlighted in the ad campaign . How is that even relevant. Way to touch a nerve.
The working poor must not have guns so the non working poor can take from them.
Perhaps it is relevant after all.

And last but not least, I’ve never like Johnny Farnham and it’s a s**t song. The government and the media needs to stop telling me I love Johnny Farnham because I really don’t.

[Gamerancher]

Yep, can't stand him and his stupid song. Met him once, arrogant little prick when not in the spotlight.

[Oldbloke]

This:

But now you want to make our constitution elevate their status in society. That’s unfair. They’re no better than us.
The constitution must reflect everyone’s hopes and dreams and aspirations. Everybody. All of us. Not some more than others.


Sounds like "Animal farm" to me.

[geoff]

Keep going fellas you're doing a great job of making shooters look like well rounded people of a modern world.

So no debate, rebuke or discussion on the topic from you Geoff just straight to chastisement?

Mate I've provided plenty of rational input here

Nobody is interested in a real discussion

[stihl88]

Keep going fellas you're doing a great job of making shooters look like well rounded people of a modern world.

So no debate, rebuke or discussion on the topic from you Geoff just straight to chastisement?

Mate I've provided plenty of rational input here

Nobody is interested in a real discussion

Posting links to sites beguiling the yes vote and making comments like "The no campaign just wants to scream and shout about the absence of information while the rest of us are drowning in clear information, It's just a lobby group, that's all it is" I don't feel is engaging in meaningful discussion.

[bladeracer]

That's because history is written by the victors.

This voice thing is not race based. It's about indigeneity. (See Sami in Finland- they're white )
I can't understand why anyone is threatened by an advisory committee to govt about matters relating to Aboriginal affairs
It's not like they have any power to disburse funds or make laws
If you want to see real power and money check out the multinational lobby groups that funnel money to government
The lump of coal Scomo brandished in parliament was handed to him by an "adviser " from the Minerals Council. The other side have the occasional prompting from the unions too
Yep - we all get an equal say in our democracy
As for treaties, all states except NSW have already got treaty processes underway. The horse has bolted on that one
What surprises me is the ease with which both sides have been able to use scaremongering tactics so effectively

For me it's not a matter of feeling threatened, it's a matter of seeing more billions of dollars going to a handful of rich city people instead of into the hands of the people in the communities that deserve it. When the government puts together something that will _actually_ improve the living conditions of the _actual_ people that need it, without filtering billions into the pockets of a few wealthy people, then they'll have my full support - this comes nowhere near that ideal.

For them to proclaim that this is not divisive when it very clearly divides Australians into Yes and No voters is ludicrous. Maybe they should've polled _all_ Australians first before coming up with this rubbish.

Is such an advisory committee going to work when it consists of a specific race of people? They advise the government to do something, the government says no, aren't they just going to scream racism? Our authorities already avoid doing anything that might lead even to absurd claims of racism.

[Oldbloke]

ATSIC didnt work too well. How will this be different?


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aborigi ... Commission

[Oldbloke]

And a few more attempts that didnt work.

If the referendum to establish a First Nations Voice to Parliament succeeds, it will be the fourth attempt in 50 years to establish a representative Aboriginal body to advise the federal government.

First, there was Gough Whitlam’s National Aboriginal Consultative Committee (NACC) from 1973 to 1977. Next was Malcolm Fraser’s National Aboriginal Conference (NAC) from 1977 to 1985. Both had a purely advisory role.


https://www.smh.com.au/national/before- ... 5c607.html

[Billo]

For those claiming this is divisive FFS so are elections.

[niteowl]

For those claiming this is divisive FFS so are elections.

NO. This is divisive to the aboriginals !!
Every on e needs to step back a bit and understand the situation.

Over the years, and there are plenty of them, I have lived and worked with these people from those that have lived as "whiteys" for generations to those people in remote communities and all in between.

My reasoning for a strong NO vote is too long for me to try to type in here.
That fool Albo stated VERY clearly to the question "How will it work?" he replied "he did not know how it would be made to work, After he had obtained the yes vote, they would work out how to make it work"
How effing stupid to vote yes for something, when they (the Govt) DO NOT KNOW HOW THEY ARE GOING TO MAKE IT WORK.

They have some thousands of people employed in the Dept. Of Aboriginal Affairs. They should get off their "proverbial" and earn their pay.

[Baronvonrort]

Because since federation our systems of government were built and designed to keep a certain group of people down.

Extraordinary discrimination requires extraordinary reparations

Can you give us some examples of how systems of government keep the natives down in 2023?

Can you give us some examples of discrimination with natives in 2023?

Do we have racial discrimination laws?

Are duck hunting bans for white people a racist law when natives are allowed to hunt ducks and all native species?

Since you mentioned reparations why should those who have never had any real contact with our natives never discriminated against them have to pay reparations to those who have never been mistreated?

[Baronvonrort]

A prominent 'Yes' campaigner described his vision for life after a Voice to Parliament is introduced - including reparations for Indigenous people, 'rent' being paid to live on Australian land and the abolishment of 'harmful colonial institutions'.

A series of tweets dating back to 2018 that were published by Thomas Mayo, an architect of the Voice referendum question and signatory of the Uluru Statement from the Heart, show his push for an eventual treaty that would see land handed back to First Nations people.
He listed 'all the things we imagine when we demand' a Voice, including 'reparations, land back, abolishing harmful colonial institutions'.

Additionally, Mr Mayo said his sights were set on 'getting ALL our kids out of prisons & in to care... integration of our laws & lore, speaking language, wages back'.

Mr Mayo said a 'guaranteed representative body' was 'needed [to]... properly pursue the rent that is owed and an abolishment of systems that harm us'.
More here- https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12213049/Thomas-Mayos-old-tweets-emerge-Voice-Parliament.html


Thomas Mayor (aka Thomas Mayo)
Is he another fake aboriginal in the mould of Bruce Pascoe?

For starters Mayo has changed his surname from ‘Mayor’ to ‘Mayo’ perhaps to sound more ‘aboriginal’. (Mayo…Mabo….).

On his personal website he claims to be a Kaurareg Aboriginal and Kalkalgal, Erubamle Torres Strait Islander man.

However, his heritage shows zero aboriginality.

The Independent Education website describes Mayor differently and more accurately:

“His father, Celestino Mayor, is….of Philippine and Dayak (Borneo) ancestry and his mother, Liz Mayor, brings Polish, Jewish and English ancestry to the family.”

Nothing about aboriginal heritage. And Mayo…er…Mayor would certainly bang on about it if it were so, wouldn’t he?
More here- https://richardsonpost.com/paulzanetti/32175/albos-communist-mate/

Thomas Mayo one of the voice archiects claims to be indigenous from being born in Torres strait which makes all of us indigenous

I did a Radiocarbon dating assignment at Uni with Mungo Man which shows he was here around 42,000 years ago. The 60,000 year claim from those remains is disputed by many as seriously flawed.

I will be voting NO

[Baronvonrort]

Aboriginal lifestyle in the 1950s.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5k-vqEsNyUo

Traditional Aboriginal healing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5rpFGW_W2E

[Oldbloke]

"I did a Radiocarbon dating assignment at Uni with Mungo Man which shows he was here around 42,000 years ago. The 60,000 year claim from those remains is disputed by many as seriously flawed."

Yes, i agree. Just yesterday i was talking about that. If the media repeats the lies, eventually they become "facts".

65,000 years here is just BS. Un-proven.

[Baronvonrort]

"I did a Radiocarbon dating assignment at Uni with Mungo Man which shows he was here around 42,000 years ago. The 60,000 year claim from those remains is disputed by many as seriously flawed."

Yes, i agree. Just yesterday i was talking about that. If the media repeats the lies, eventually they become "facts".

65,000 years here is just BS. Un-proven.

Keating was telling this lie with his Redfern park speech. I think the politically controversial comment means it goes against the narrative.

Lake Mungo 3

Later Thorne et al. (1999), arrived at a new estimate of 62,000 ± 6,000 years. This estimate was determined by combining data from uranium-thorium dating, electron spin resonance dating and optically stimulated luminescence (OSL) dating of the remains and the immediately surrounding soil.[18]

However, this estimate was very controversial.[19][20][21] The lowest level of the LM3 which are as old as 43,000 years demonstrated that LM3 should not be older than the lowest layer. However, the ANU team had dated the stratum itself to be between 59,000 and 63,000 years old. The problems with using uranium-thorium dating on tooth enamel were criticised.

In 2003, Professor Bowler led a project bringing together a multi-disciplinary team of Australian expert groups (comprising four Australian universities, the NSW National Parks & Wildlife Service and the CSIRO, as well as including descendants of the Mungo people) to collaborate on a final determination of the skeleton's age. They reached a consensus that LM3 is about 40,000 years old.[22] This age largely corresponds with stratigraphic evidence using four different dating methods. The age of 40,000 years is currently the most widely accepted age for the LM3, making LM3 the second oldest modern human fossil east of India.

Mitochondrial DNA and origins

In 2001, mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) from the Lake Mungo 3 (LM3) skeleton was published and compared with several other sequences. It was found to have more than the expected number of sequence differences when compared to modern human DNA (CRS).[25] Comparison of the mitochondrial DNA with that of ancient and modern Aboriginal peoples led to the conclusion that Mungo Man fell outside the range of genetic variation seen in Australian Aboriginal people, and was used to support the multiregional origin of modern humans hypothesis.[25][26] These results proved politically controversial,

Further discoveries
In 1989, the skeleton of a child believed to be contemporary with Mungo man was discovered. Investigation of the remains was blocked by the 3TTG with the remains subsequently protected but remaining in-situ.[35] An adult skeleton was exposed by erosion in 2005 but by late 2006 had been completely destroyed by wind and rain. This loss resulted in the Indigenous custodians' receiving a government grant of $735,000 to survey and improve the conservation of skeletons, hearths and middens that were eroding from the dunes. Conservation is in-situ and no research is permitted.[36]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Mungo_remains

There are some who claim Aboriginal art has been dated at 60,000 years there is no method to date that makes it easy to call BS on that..
Dot painting originated 50 years ago back in 1971. Geoffrey Bardon was assigned as an art teacher for the children of the Aboriginal people in Papunya, near Alice Springs.

Mungo Man 3 had 2.39% remaining of its original Carbon 14 Isotope.
I also did other remains like Kow Swamp which had headband of kangaroo teeth around 12,000 years old.Quite a few in the 12-26K range.

The Aborigines also had their own counting system which offered nothing to mathematics. It was a base 5 system ( 5 fingers) common with ancient tribes.

Once upon a time the media tried to report the truth these days it's agenda driven.

[Baronvonrort]

Sacred site = ancient superstion used to milk more from Governments

Does anyone remeber this song before we became PC?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1Zuo2JtTdY

[womble]

That’s a rather bias assessment Baron. I’ve seen whole towns of whites that are just as feral. Probably thank ice for that.
Certainly the feral white bludgers here outnumber the black ones a thousand fold.

And I’ve met plenty of decent abos. Kind people, even offering to take me into national parks with them to hunt pigs
And even 30-40 years ago it really annoyed me that they were treated differently in every aspect of life. I’d go shopping with them. I’ve lived next door them, their families. And they were good people, Aussie battlers.
Honesty, the ones that stay of the grog are some of the nicest people you’ll ever meet. Always cheerful and sociable.
It just gave me the s**ts when some arrogant c*** wiped the smile of their faces to put them in their place.

Call it pc if you want but I think I’m actually glad for it in this case.
Yeah that video you just shared with us. That’s a bit f***ed up mate. I don’t like it.
I mean if someone wrote a song about you and yours like that would you like it. So it’s really not about pc. It’s just putting yourself in someone else’s shoes and seeing things from their perspective. I’m not great when it comes to emotions but i think it’s called empathy or something.
But that’s just my opinion.
Still, the biased vote is real. Plenty of biased people.