Reloading, Pros and Cons

[Gwion]

Harvey's book is an excellent resource for the beginner with regards to the actual process of reloading. However, some of his listed load data is a bit so-so. Best to reference a few different sources for starting loads.

I agree whole heartedly.

[Gwion]

Has anybody actually tested the FL vs neck sizing idea? Curious if anybody has actually tried both and measured the results in their rifle?

Yep. Small but definite improvements from fire formed brass. Maybe around 0.2 moa.

Tried it out on both 200 OSA 223r brass and 100 Norma 7-08 brass. Started by batching the brass by weight, giving it all a good going over for flash holes, etc. and then developing a load whilst fire forming. In the 223 I was getting consistent 0.6-0.7 moa from unfurled brass once a load was developed. Brought that down to reliably 0.5moa on second firing. A slight tweek of seating depth improved it again.

Just my simple testing but I'm convinced it makes a difference if you're trying to shave fractions off your group sizes. I like getting the best that I can from my ammo, even if it is for hunting. You can only put the bullet where it needs to go if you know it will go where you put it.

[juststarting]

You can only put the bullet where it needs to go if you know it will go where you put it.

Deep.

[Gwion]

Hehe... Zen in the Art of Shooting!

[Apollo]

Something I just thought of my mate and I both have the same caliber, 22-250, but different rifles, Sako and a tikka, would we have to keep the individual rifles casting seperate after the first shot or mixing them up not cause an issue

I may not have mentioned it last night on the phone but I have a .243W Tikka Super Varmint and a Sako 85 Varmint. I swap barrels between them. Two Tikka T3 Barrels and one Sako Barrel, They all measure up by my Gunsmith to be exactly the same especially head space so all the fired cases fit each other, exactly.

Sako are not Remington or Winchester or who ever, Sako quality control is very spot on......

[superdave]

When I started reloading a few years ago, I had one goal, to learn to make ammo without blowing my rifle or myself up. So I read extensively and thought through what I would do and how.

One thing I did was to make dummy rounds in the cal that I started with, .308. By that I mean I didn't seat a primer in the case or fill it with powder, but it was complete in every other way, ie cleaned, sized, with a projectile seated in the neck as far as the max length specs would allow, and crimped.

Doing this allows you to do things like setting up your dies to the correct adjustment,and using the round in your rifle to check that it will sit in the magazine, feed from the magazine and chamber without problems.

It's a half step to loading a real round that allows you to check that what you've done that far has been ok.
For safety's sake when I make one of these I put a ring around the case with a blue marker to remind myself what it is, so I don't mistake it for a live round and vice versa

[happyhunter]

.

[Gwion]

True enough. My theory is that the better my load and rifle precision the more confident I can be that where I am aiming is where the bullet will go. Probably no point making a round capable of 0.5moa when a 1moa round will do the job 90% of the time but when your shooting at a 2-3" kill zone at 200m, having that confidence in your gear gives you just a little more tolerance if wind conditions put a bit more drift than you expect. Just the way I look at it.

[bigfellascott]

You can only put the bullet where it needs to go if you know it will go where you put it.

haha.. I'm more interested in knowing my rifle be zeroed before a shoot and that I'm current behind the trigger before heading out. I wouldn't even notice 0.2 MOA as 90% of my shooting these days is foxes at night using 222 and 204, rarely needing to shoot past 300 meters.

The gear is always up for it so I only need know that I'm capable of sending bullets through a fox

Same here - I dont need bench rest ammo or accuracy to do the job.

[Adlippy]

Cheers everyone for your help, I have just purchased a copy of nick Harvey's book which I will start reading tonight, I now have a lot of info to work through, I have decided, if I go down this path, to start off with a single stage press, I spoke to a couple of stores today,currently in tassie bugging the sh#t out of cherry growers,so have some idea on what the initial outlay would be, have spoken to mate back on the mainland and have warned him our little production line will have to be beer free, once he recovers from that bit of news and the research is completed enough we could be ready to rock and roll, I can see a problem developing with who is going to be the test pilot on the first load, may have to allow a beer or two on that one.

[deye243]

with me it's accuracy 1st then bullet performance then cost 3rd

[tom604]

True enough. My theory is that the better my load and rifle precision the more confident I can be that where I am aiming is where the bullet will go. Probably no point making a round capable of 0.5moa when a 1moa round will do the job 90% of the time but when your shooting at a 2-3" kill zone at 200m, having that confidence in your gear gives you just a little more tolerance if wind conditions put a bit more drift than you expect. Just the way I look at it.

yep, nothing better than knowing your gun is a shooter, that way if you miss you know its your fault

its like when you get a really good group and then you muff one but "its a flyer"

[brett1868]

Hehe... Zen in the Art of Shooting!

http://raymancini.com.au/zen-and-the-art-of-shooting/

I once read "Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance". Ian Gowanloch had it in his shed while I was stay there so I read it, one of the strangest books I've read from what I remember of it.

[Gwion]

Brett. Yeah I bought that book for my old man. He didn't really appreciate it!

I have read Zen and the Art of Archery a number of times..... It nothing like Motorcycle Maintenance and was written quite some time before hand.

[juststarting]

There are no cons to reloading.

this.

[Oldbloke]

Hehe... Zen in the Art of Shooting!

http://raymancini.com.au/zen-and-the-art-of-shooting/

I once read "Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance". Ian Gowanloch had it in his shed while I was stay there so I read it, one of the strangest books I've read from what I remember of it.

+1.

[Supaduke]

I can see a problem developing with who is going to be the test pilot on the first load, may have to allow a beer or two on that one.

I distinctly remember firing my first reload with gritted teeth and a degree of trepidation. Then it just discharges like any other round and away you go.

[bigfellascott]

I'm not sure if anyone else has mentioned it's always best to start at the minimum recommended load in any load data you are using - then just go up in say .3gn increments keeping any eye out for signs of pressure etc (the book will tell you what to look for) don't exceed the max recommended load to be on the safe side (plenty do but best to just keep it safe for now until you are more experienced and understand the whole process better).

[Gamerancher]

Which is the reason I suggested consulting reloading tables other than Harvey's. Some of his "starting" loads exceed other manuals "maximum" loads.

[bladeracer]

I'm not sure if anyone else has mentioned it's always best to start at the minimum recommended load in any load data you are using - then just go up in say .3gn increments keeping any eye out for signs of pressure etc (the book will tell you what to look for) don't exceed the max recommended load to be on the safe side (plenty do but best to just keep it safe for now until you are more experienced and understand the whole process better).

It was a very long time ago, but I think recognising and monitoring pressure signs was the single biggest hurdle for me when I was learning. Being pre-internet you couldn't jump online and see millions of photos of cases showing high pressures, or even normal pressures. I used a 40X loupe to examine the primers, comparing them with increasing loads looking for the most minute differences. Because the "differences" really are minute while you're working well short of hot loads. Until you finally start pushing the pressure limits, then the differences become glaringly obvious in comparison. After that point it got much easier, although I still use a loupe

[Noisydad]

Has anybody actually tested the FL vs neck sizing idea? Curious if anybody has actually tried both and measured the results in their rifle?

For my .40-65 Sharps I don't size at all unless shells won't chamber. My cast lead bullets are loose seated over compressed BP, a couple of wads and a grease cookie.

[bigfellascott]

Yeah I don't spend much time looking for pressure signs these days as I have all my loads sorted in the diff cals I shoot only really have to worry about it in the load development stage for the most part - every now and then I have a look at the primers when reloading them.

[Adlippy]

The minimum and max load data that's in these books, do they vary from book to book( take it they do regarding Harvey's book), manufacturer to manufacturer etc, how would someone like me who has no idea actually no? Do you need to buy a few books and compare?

[bigfellascott]

The minimum and max load data that's in these books, do they vary from book to book( take it they do regarding Harvey's book), manufacturer to manufacturer etc, how would someone like me who has no idea actually no? Do you need to buy a few books and compare?

Nope if you are using ADI powder just use their reloading data http://www.adi-powders.com.au/handloade ... ifle%2Easp

A lot of the other manuals available will have powders that aren't as readily available here but a lot of those are available here but under the ADI name (basically ADI export it and then it's relabeled but then you have to cross reference the diff names to work out what powder it is here, hence it's easier to use Nicks Manual and the ADI website if you need to check things.

Reloading isn't hard, once you've done it a couple of times and your confidence grows you'll be right, all you have to do is make sure you are using the correct powder and the correct load data for it and the projectile weight and you'll be fine I'm sure.

Any dramas just come back to the forum and ask the question, someone here should be able to help you.

[bigfellascott]

Also before you go loading up the cases get one of the empty cases and full length size it and see if it chambers (you want to know if your dies are set up correctly) and this is the best way to find out, no need to put powder or projectile etc in it, just the FL resized case into the chamber and close the bolt and see if it actually does, if not you need to adjust your die until it does. The dies usually have a locking ring on them so once you are happy with it lock it in place, that way you won't have to worry about it again.

Nothing worse than reloading a heap of cases the first time out and they won't chamber. I also like to make sure a loaded case will work too, you need to make sure the projectile is seated deep enough or it too will cause troubles when trying to chamber a round (you obviously have to be careful doing this as the case is live so keep the fingers away from the trigger and if you have a rifle that has a 3 stage safety use that too.

Anyway lots of reading and learning ahead for you but once you've done it a few times it will become a lot easier and clearer to do and make a lot more sense, then when you are ready and if interested you can get right into the fine tuning of cases etc for better results if you want too.

Good luck

[bladeracer]

The minimum and max load data that's in these books, do they vary from book to book( take it they do regarding Harvey's book), manufacturer to manufacturer etc, how would someone like me who has no idea actually no? Do you need to buy a few books and compare?

Yes, they vary. Just as maximum loads vary in different rifles. Pressures vary due to minor changes in lots of things. Consistency is the rule for good ammo, do everything exactly the same for each round and they should shoot well. Case length and bullet seating depth are probably the most critical. If you don't trim the brass and it stretches until the case mouth enters the throat, it won't have room to open up to release the bullet and pressure will spike. Similarly, if you work up a hot load with the bullet seated 40-thou from the rifling, then load some long ones that jam the bullet into the rifling you'll also get higher pressures. If you load some short ones you might also see higher pressures due to the reduced case capacity.

Note that ADI also list pressures use two different measuring systems, CUP and PSI which are very different. PSI measurements are about 15% higher than the same pressure measured in CUP.

[bladeracer]

Also before you go loading up the cases get one of the empty cases and full length size it and see if it chambers...

Why wouldn't you try the brass before you full-length size it?
Even fired brass from another rifle has a pretty good chance of working fine in yours, so it's worth trying it first.

[bigfellascott]

Also before you go loading up the cases get one of the empty cases and full length size it and see if it chambers...

Why wouldn't you try the brass before you full-length size it?
Even fired brass from another rifle has a pretty good chance of working fine in yours, so it's worth trying it first.

Nope, I rather FLS the brass from other firearms (too many diff tolerances in chambers) - that way I know they will work, would be nothing worse than loading a heap up only to find some won't chamber, easier to just FLS em back to factory specs and know they will work once you try a couple to see if the dies are set up correctly.

ie - I couldn't use the brass from my Sako 222 in my Howa 222, the tolerances were diff (tried it out of curiosity one day) for me if I have the same cal in diff rifles I just keep the brass separate that way I only have to neck size them before reloading which of course is easier on the brass.

[bladeracer]

Nope, I rather FLS the brass from other firearms (too many diff tolerances in chambers) - that way I know they will work, would be nothing worse than loading a heap up only to find some won't chamber, easier to just FLS em back to factory specs and know they will work once you try a couple to see if the dies are set up correctly.

ie - I couldn't use the brass from my Sako 222 in my Howa 222, the tolerances were diff (tried it out of curiosity one day) for me if I have the same cal in diff rifles I just keep the brass separate that way I only have to neck size them before reloading which of course is easier on the brass.

I meant try it to see if it chambers in the rifle first rather than simply assuming it won't
If it chambers okay then you know it'll be fine after you load it up, although it's still good practise to check that the first few feed through your rifle before loading the whole batch..

[Gamerancher]

Same also with new brass. The manufacturing process has allowable variation tolerances and subsequent handling can leave brass deformed. Also, unless you are paying top dollar for "competition" quality brass they will vary, sometimes by a fair bit. Best practice is to size, trim to length and deburr flash holes from the get go. You then have brass that is going to be a lot more uniform from the start. Of course there is a lot more things you can do to "accurise" you brass but we are talking starting off here.