Property Letters

Questions about Western Australian gun and ammunition laws. W.A. Firearms Act 1973.

Re: Property Letters

Post by Nails » 21 Jun 2021, 6:25 pm

Communism_Is_Cancer wrote:
duncan61 wrote:In W.A. you can join a club and shoot at that club or get a private property to shoot/hunt on.There is no public hunting land


I think he means if you have a genuine reason for one can't you do the other?

In Queensland you only have to prove genuine reason for club or private land recreational use and you get both codes on your licence. SC1(club) and RE1(private land).

It is easier to pay the shooters union 30$ a year for your genuine reason than to prove you have a property to shoot on.


Ok thanks, if that’s the case it makes sense to me now, no wonder the dodgy letters have come about
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Re: Property Letters

Post by bladeracer » 21 Jun 2021, 7:19 pm

Nails wrote:I’ve read each post but still unclear on why anyone would want to buy a dodgy letter. Are these letters just a reason to not pay membership?
I’m in Qld and even though I own a large enough property to shoot on, it was far simpler to pay memberships for my genuine reason and enjoy shooting at both.

Is tit not possible to use range membership as a genuine reason in WA?


They allow club membership as genuine reason, but it restricts you to club use only, no hunting.
In Victoria we don't need any club memberships or private property letters, we have public land to shoot and hunt on.
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Re: Property Letters

Post by Barbarian » 21 Jun 2021, 7:37 pm

Bit late to the party but as Animalpest said, WAPOL are questioning people who have property letters about their shooting history and making a judgement based on genuine reason.

To be clear, there is nothing illegal or wrong with purchasing a property letter, but do not exaggerate/lie about your property attendance after the fact when they call up regarding your firearms license. Be truthful and honest as they -will- do a followup with the property manager/owner and if they find you have misled WAPOL you can face your license and all your firearms being cancelled.

The guys at Kalbarri Shooting/Outdoor Adventures are great, if your going to purchase a property letter I recommend them, because they are actually a functioning shooting/game business.

Also if your just looking for a property letter for a 22lr or shotgun in the Perth Hills region, DM me.
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Re: Property Letters

Post by duncan61 » 21 Jun 2021, 9:00 pm

About Ella Valla Station & the Crew
We are located in the Gascoyne Region, 87km south-east of Carnarvon, consisting of almost 100 000 hectares.

We are a Family-run, functioning Cattle Station, with Diversification Permits to allow Tourism in the form of Station Stay for Shooting & Hunting enthusiasts.

We are fortunately positioned in the region known as the 'Goat Triangle' which is a popular thoroughfare for Goats and other vermin. We have other and larger game on our property, including but not limited to Rabbits, Foxes, Cats, Dogs, Cattle.

We provide Property Letters to customers requiring support to acquire a Firearm (by way of offering a place to shoot)

We allow shooters to come to Ella Valla Station to shoot our vermin, in an effort to keep our vermin numbers at a minimum.

We allow shooters access to our 1km Rifle Range and Reloading Facility, for the purposes of target shooting and developing/testing/perfecting ammunition loads

We offer Firearms Training both on and offsite

We provide the ultimate opportunity for our customers to experience shooting a .50BMG, which is one of the BIGGEST guns you will shoot on any Private Range in the World!

Ella Valla Station is home to the ONLY .50BMG Long Range Shooting Club in WA, called Widji Bandi Sports Association of Western Australia. Membership can be offered to exceptional shooters wanting to participate professionally in this sport at elite state, national and worldwide levels.
Not quite dodgy and it is something I would do.2 of my people obtained their licence through this station
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Re: Property Letters

Post by duncan61 » 21 Jun 2021, 9:12 pm

State admin tribunal win for
Ella- Valla station
7 June 2019

Ella Valla Station, and shooters generally, had a big win this week in the State Administrative Tribunal. Ella Valla successfully challenged the right of the police to impose onerous and unnecessary conditions on its shooting range. The Tribunal, after long legal argument, accepted that the general nature of the conditions the police wanted to impose exceeded the scope of police power. So the Tribunal "set aside" the police decision to impose those unlawful conditions, and referred the matter back to the police for consideration, but this time to stay within their limited powers (which are much more limited than they thought they were, and which do not really present problem). The Tribunal has invited Ella Valla to make submissions regarding the question of costs. Ella Valla is hopeful that some of the money spent on the case will be recovered from the police.

This is a big win for shooters generally. In my experience police frequently do things which are not permitted by the law. For example, they impose conditions on licences which are beyond their power. Often they search vehicles, people and homes without lawful justification. It is difficult to convince a court or tribunal of this.

This case has ramifications outside shooting ranges. The police have recently been imposing oppressive and unnecessary conditions on shooting ranges in WA. But, now, according to the Tribunal, those conditions are of no legal effect. Indeed, in my opinion, many conditions imposed on firearms licences also are invalid. This case will support my argument.


This court win was the result of a team effort. My legal argument was developed with the immense help of other lawyers, Michael Ryan and Karrie Louden. It could not have happened without the tenacity of Shane Aylmore. Absolutely crucial was the financial support of SSAA (WA) and indivual shooters. Without SSAA this result simply would have been impossible. Ron Bryant, the President, and his team took a risk backing this case. Thankfully it was a winner. Without SSAA life would be much tougher for shooters.
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Re: Property Letters

Post by N.Field » 22 Jun 2021, 9:17 am

Barbarian wrote:Bit late to the party but as Animalpest said, WAPOL are questioning people who have property letters about their shooting history and making a judgement based on genuine reason.

To be clear, there is nothing illegal or wrong with purchasing a property letter, but do not exaggerate/lie] about your property attendance after the fact when they call up regarding your firearms license. Be truthful and honest as they -will- do a followup with the property manager/owner and if they find you have misled WAPOL you can face your license and all your firearms being cancelled.

The guys at Kalbarri Shooting/Outdoor Adventures are great, if your going to purchase a property letter I recommend them, because they are actually a functioning shooting/game business.

Also if your just looking for a property letter for a 22lr or shotgun in the Perth Hills region, DM me.


Thanks, that's the clarification I was after.
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Re: Property Letters

Post by Ben Garrison » 28 Jun 2021, 11:43 pm

Barbarian wrote:Bit late to the party but as Animalpest said, WAPOL are questioning people who have property letters about their shooting history and making a judgement based on genuine reason.

To be clear, there is nothing illegal or wrong with purchasing a property letter, but do not exaggerate/lie about your property attendance after the fact when they call up regarding your firearms license. Be truthful and honest as they -will- do a followup with the property manager/owner and if they find you have misled WAPOL you can face your license and all your firearms being cancelled.



Would it not be wiser to not answer any questions at all?
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Re: Property Letters

Post by ZaineB » 29 Jun 2021, 12:49 am

I mean if they called me I would probably decline any questioning over the phone, after all there is no way for me to have any verification of their law enforcement credentials. and in person I would probably decline to comment, as if my right. In writing I would either use my understanding of the law if sufficient, or seek professional legal advice if not sure.

they aren't allowed to penalize you for not speaking to them, you have a right to silence. further more if the act doesn't explicitly say that your genuine need requires verification after the fact, then ignore their request,

ultimately better to speak to a legal professional if unsure, this is after all a forum, with its fair share of characters, most I wouldn't be appealing to for legal advice.

best bet is a quick call to a lawyer.
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Re: Property Letters

Post by animalpest » 29 Jun 2021, 9:51 am

While you may well have a right to silence, that doesn't mean that won't be used against you.

I think some have tried not replying but lost their firearms.
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Re: Property Letters

Post by Wraithe » 29 Jun 2021, 10:46 am

animalpest wrote:It's a loophole that being exploited. When property letter requirements were made, no one thought people would make money by selling them.

It was assumed that those who had a letter would shoot on the property - well that's how it used to be. I think the landholder gets around it by saying you need to get the ok to come here and shoot. And that will never happen.

Police are now cracking down on it I have heard.


Police have tried, the lawyers helped draft the laws and it's been lawyers that showed supplying a letter, you can charge for.

Having a property does not automatically mean you can shoot on the property it just means the property owner has confirmed you may.

No property letter needed to shoot on a farm, just the verbal permission and two way trust to do so.

Owning your own property no longer has the mean it did 40 years ago, when a 16yo could walk in and purchase a .22 and go home, shoot the rabbits and feed the family. Most of us from that era still hold our original firearms(well worn out) and we are the generation of idiots that have made all these unworkable laws.
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Re: Property Letters

Post by Wraithe » 29 Jun 2021, 10:56 am

2,000 acres is the largest property required for a firearm in WA. Thats on the WAPOL guide used at the firearms branch...

I suggest anyone getting a license or addition look up the requirements and the legislation as you need that for a refusal when you go to court..
The courts will decide your application and if you ticked all the boxes in the legislation, you will get your firearms. Sadly there are officers that think they know best.

If you have a criminal record with violence, then I wouldnt even let you shoot on my place let alone have a license.

Once the you've rattled there cage and done all the correct procedures and stood up to there challenge, life gets easier dealing with them. (Thats from an experience with WAPOL, they become nice to you)
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Re: Property Letters

Post by ZaineB » 29 Jun 2021, 11:10 am

animalpest wrote:While you may well have a right to silence, that doesn't mean that won't be used against you.

I think some have tried not replying but lost their firearms.



it is 100% illegal for police to insinuate or decide anything based on silence. any smart lawyer would have their actions brought to notice post haste if they did as you say.

replying in writing after speaking to a lawyer would be a smarter move all day every day.
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Re: Property Letters

Post by Ed9362 » 29 Jun 2021, 1:07 pm

nice of the gun shop to gouge 200 or 300 bucks for a photo copied letter
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Re: Property Letters

Post by bladeracer » 29 Jun 2021, 1:16 pm

Ed9362 wrote:nice of the gun shop to gouge 200 or 300 bucks for a photo copied letter


Being WA, I would think most would be very happy to have somewhere to shoot for $300.
The problem is you aren't allowed to shoot on the property even having paid for that privilege.
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Re: Property Letters

Post by Ben Garrison » 29 Jun 2021, 8:03 pm

animalpest wrote:While you may well have a right to silence, that doesn't mean that won't be used against you.

I think some have tried not replying but lost their firearms.


The Police cannot make an inference from someone's refusal to answer questions. Do you know of someone losing their license this way?
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Re: Property Letters

Post by animalpest » 30 Jun 2021, 9:40 pm

Second hand news from a friend of a friend but wouldn't take a bet on it.

Not 100% sure that they won't draw inferences from being silent. The right to silence is so that you don't say anything to incriminate yourself.

Me, I would say talk to my solicitor if I believe they are trying to pin something on me or if I was being intimated. Otherwise, I have nothing to hide.
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Re: Property Letters

Post by ZaineB » 30 Jun 2021, 9:46 pm

animalpest wrote:Second hand news from a friend of a friend but wouldn't take a bet on it.

Not 100% sure that they won't draw inferences from being silent. The right to silence is so that you don't say anything to incriminate yourself.

Me, I would say talk to my solicitor if I believe they are trying to pin something on me or if I was being intimated. Otherwise, I have nothing to hide.



all law enforcement is 100% bound to not make inferences based on silence or the statement "no comment", its not their privilege or right or tenure to make such an inference, they may personally feel one way or another about it, but they are not authorized to bring punitive measures or judgement against anyone for reserving their right to silence. I would shut my pie hole regardless and only reply in writing after getting a solicitor to advise as to what to say. All my experiences (a fair few thanks to a stupid vindictive ex wife, who is now in more s**t than ginger megs) with the law and lawyer advice is that you say nothing, ever, and that police are not allowed under any circumstances to draw conclusions based on it.
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Re: Property Letters

Post by Barbarian » 02 Jul 2021, 5:23 am

Ben Garrison wrote:Would it not be wiser to not answer any questions at all?


It is certainly an option. The point I wanted to make was mainly not to lie to WAPOL, as it could cost your licence.
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Re: Property Letters

Post by Barbarian » 02 Jul 2021, 5:27 am

bladeracer wrote:
Ed9362 wrote:nice of the gun shop to gouge 200 or 300 bucks for a photo copied letter


Being WA, I would think most would be very happy to have somewhere to shoot for $300.
The problem is you aren't allowed to shoot on the property even having paid for that privilege.


This is why I don’t recommend buying some of the more nebulous letters from the LGS, but from a place that operates as a range or shooting business like Kabarri SA or Ella Valla, there may be additional costs but you very much can arrange to shoot on the property.
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Re: Property Letters

Post by animalpest » 02 Jul 2021, 12:42 pm

Courts will not make inferences from your silence. And if you are treated differently because of it then you have a case.

But you can't change what someone is thinking. Or perhaps how they view you because of it. Sadly human nature can decide whether to give you a hard time or not.
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Re: Property Letters

Post by ZaineB » 02 Jul 2021, 4:57 pm

animalpest wrote:Courts will not make inferences from your silence. And if you are treated differently because of it then you have a case.

But you can't change what someone is thinking. Or perhaps how they view you because of it. Sadly human nature can decide whether to give you a hard time or not.


Perhaps, however police aren't paid to have feelings or thoughts that aren't within the scope of the law. They are not arbiters or lawmakers, their job is to be a living robot doing only as the law dictates, any action outside of this is unlawful and unethical. If an officer gives you a hard time, an immediate letter and correspondence with their superiors should be lodged, police harassment in any form is illegal and unethical, there have been cases thrown out of court because of the actions of the police/detectives involved.

If someone from WAPOL was going out of their way to make my life hard, I would go out of my way to get them sacked, and this is something I have achieved once before, would not be afraid to do it again.
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Re: Property Letters

Post by Larry » 02 Jul 2021, 7:11 pm

The cops must get frustrated by seeing the same property being used as justification. I am sure they would know it is a bit of a loophole and scam that is being exploited.
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Re: Property Letters

Post by ZaineB » 02 Jul 2021, 7:13 pm

Larry wrote:The cops must get frustrated by seeing the same property being used as justification. I am sure they would know it is a bit of a loophole and scam that is being exploited.


There is literally one line in the act that mentions needing written permission as part of "genuine need" there is no mention of this need ever having to be revalidated, reaffirmed, checked, re-applied, amended, or anything. There is also no requirement in the act to use that firearm at the aforementioned property at all, it does not mention land holding size at all, and it does not mention "game" having to meet certain criteria vs caliber etc.

According to the act 11A. Genuine reason required in all cases: (2) A person has a genuine reason for acquiring or possessing a firearm or ammunition if and only if — (c) it is for use in hunting or shooting of a recreational nature on land the owner of which has given written permission for that hunting or shooting;

So based on this ANY primary production letter counts as proof of genuine need for ANY caliber firearm, for the purpose of recreational shooting or hunting. So the police arbitrarily stopping someone from owning a 338 Lapua or 416 Rigby etc because the land holding has no feral game "worthy" or "requiring" such a caliber is completely arbitrary and outside the scope of the law as any layman can see.


the property letter shouldn't even be a requirement, its arbitrary nonsense. If police don't like it then they should side with shooters in eliminating the arbitration. Failing to do so, shows their complete bias and vilification against shooters, which they should be penalized for, treating law abiding citizens with contempt.
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Re: Property Letters

Post by Larry » 02 Jul 2021, 7:20 pm

Zain in just the prior post you said they are not law makers or arbiters just robots implementing the law. That is all they are doing with enforcing property letters. I would think but do not have any real knowledge that the law would state that the property letter be valid and truthful.

Are the gun shops that are selling these letters passing on any of the income to the property owner or are they doctoring an original and putting other peoples details on them basically forging a document like what used to be done for proof of age documents then selling them and keeping all the $$$.
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Re: Property Letters

Post by ZaineB » 02 Jul 2021, 7:28 pm

Larry wrote:Zain in just the prior post you said they are not law makers or arbiters just robots implementing the law. That is all they are doing with enforcing property letters. I would think but do not have any real knowledge that the law would state that the property letter be valid and truthful.

Are the gun shops that are selling these letters passing on any of the income to the property owner or are they doctoring an original and putting other peoples details on them basically forging a document like what used to be done for proof of age documents then selling them and keeping all the $$$.



no they arbitrarily ad more baggage and requirements than they are legislated to do so, therefore are acting above their place in law, they are not lawmakers, they are public servants.

as for validity, WAPOL call the letter issuer and verify the details of the applicant.
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Re: Property Letters

Post by bladeracer » 02 Jul 2021, 7:52 pm

Even having a property letter for a property you can shoot on does not require you to _ever_ actually go there. The law only requires evidence of a property that you _can_ shoot on if you wanted to. Police have no reason to chase up how often or if you ever go there.

Larry wrote:Zain in just the prior post you said they are not law makers or arbiters just robots implementing the law. That is all they are doing with enforcing property letters. I would think but do not have any real knowledge that the law would state that the property letter be valid and truthful.

Are the gun shops that are selling these letters passing on any of the income to the property owner or are they doctoring an original and putting other peoples details on them basically forging a document like what used to be done for proof of age documents then selling them and keeping all the $$$.
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Re: Property Letters

Post by bladeracer » 02 Jul 2021, 7:56 pm

WA Police caused this mess themselves by trying to add additional unlegislated requirements to make it more difficult for people to legally own firearms. It is all fixed by simply sticking to the laws as they're written, and get rid of their ridiculous acreage requirements that are outside the law. A property letter is all that should be required, regardless of acreage, just like all other states.

No state has any legislated acreage minimum for shooting on a property, including WA.
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Re: Property Letters

Post by ZaineB » 02 Jul 2021, 8:06 pm

bladeracer wrote:WA Police caused this mess themselves by trying to add additional unlegislated requirements to make it more difficult for people to legally own firearms. It is all fixed by simply sticking to the laws as they're written, and get rid off their ridiculous acreage requirements that are outside the law. A property letter is all that should be required, regardless of acreage, just like all other states.

No state has any legislated acreage minimum for shooting on a property, including WA.



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Re: Property Letters

Post by Diamond Jim » 16 Jul 2021, 1:45 am

bladeracer wrote:
N.Field wrote:Some WA dealers offer property letters at a cost of around $200. Does anyone know if these things are usually accepted by WAPOL and whether they ever follow up to confirm that the licensee actually shoots on the property specified in the letter?


I thought they were closer to $300, despite not allowing you to actually shoot on the property.
I've heard that Police do follow up, but I don't have first-hand experience of such.
Probably a question better asked of the dealer selling it, and also worth making a call to the property owner.

You could try getting a NSW R-licence or a Victorian game licence and tell them you travel to hunt over here? Being WA though, I'd be very impressed if they considered that to be reasonable.


I can tell you WAPOL definitely do (sometimes) follow up. I submitted a letter from my brother-in-law who runs 18,000+ acres and the local police asked him about my bone-fides when they crossed him in the street. Very low-key, like do you know this bloke? What's the connection? That sort of level.
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Re: Property Letters

Post by ZaineB » 16 Jul 2021, 1:51 am

Diamond Jim wrote:
bladeracer wrote:
N.Field wrote:Some WA dealers offer property letters at a cost of around $200. Does anyone know if these things are usually accepted by WAPOL and whether they ever follow up to confirm that the licensee actually shoots on the property specified in the letter?


I thought they were closer to $300, despite not allowing you to actually shoot on the property.
I've heard that Police do follow up, but I don't have first-hand experience of such.
Probably a question better asked of the dealer selling it, and also worth making a call to the property owner.

You could try getting a NSW R-licence or a Victorian game licence and tell them you travel to hunt over here? Being WA though, I'd be very impressed if they considered that to be reasonable.


I can tell you WAPOL definitely do (sometimes) follow up. I submitted a letter from my brother-in-law who runs 18,000+ acres and the local police asked him about my bone-fides when they crossed him in the street. Very low-key, like do you know this bloke? What's the connection? That sort of level.



Real detectives those guys, any cop worth their salt would be able to find out you were the blokes brother in law. sheesh.
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