FIREARMS AMENDMENT BILL 2021

Questions about Western Australian gun and ammunition laws. W.A. Firearms Act 1973.

FIREARMS AMENDMENT BILL 2021

Post by westaussie » 26 Nov 2021, 10:26 pm

https://www.parliament.wa.gov.au/parlia ... M+59+(2021).pdf?

Very similar to the laws passed in Victoria, with sweeping powers for the Police Commissioner to issue Firearms Prohibition Orders (FPO).

Due to the broad nature of the bill it would also potentially prohibit entirely reasonable things like;

- making minor repairs of your own firearms
- replacing triggers if you want to swap between target shooting and hunting
- possessing breakdown diagrams and instructions of how to disassemble/reassemble your legal firearms
- reloading

There is also the unintended consequences of such a bill that we can't even know yet.

The entire WA firearms community needs to band together and contact their local MLAs and MLCs and demand some sensible changes to the bill.
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Re: FIREARMS AMENDMENT BILL 2021

Post by brett » 26 Nov 2021, 10:30 pm

Absolutely. It is totally insane. Also the commissioner can use secret evidence to give anyone a FPO which is impossible to appeal when the evidence is secret.
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Re: FIREARMS AMENDMENT BILL 2021

Post by westaussie » 26 Nov 2021, 11:41 pm

This also likely prohibits things like presses and dies, reloading manuals, cartridge specifications and drawings.
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Re: FIREARMS AMENDMENT BILL 2021

Post by deye243 » 27 Nov 2021, 2:37 am

Looks like there might be a lot of cheap reloading equipment on eBay soon
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Re: FIREARMS AMENDMENT BILL 2021

Post by straightshooter » 27 Nov 2021, 6:02 am

It seems like once the Pandora's Box of authoritarianism has opened it never closes.
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Re: FIREARMS AMENDMENT BILL 2021

Post by Barbarian » 02 Dec 2021, 9:45 pm

While I certainly object to any further regulation of Law Abiding shooters, collectors, dealers and gunsmiths and feel like some of the new powers sound like something Orwellian, of the things that jumped out at me first and foremost were the definition of Magazines and Assembled Trigger mechanisms as ‘Major Firearm Parts”

Triggers are something that have been relatively troubled free to acquire, along with Magazines ( If they are already in country)

Along with the definition of “Firearms Technology” being vague enough that it could encompass basically every hand loader in the state, not to mention anyone with an exploded diagram of a firearm in their library (I’m screwed :D I’m typing this on a FAL Tekmat )

The latter being rather familiar as the old bloke in WA who was somewhat recently found to have ‘Blueprints’
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Re: FIREARMS AMENDMENT BILL 2021

Post by ChrisPer » 10 Dec 2021, 7:41 pm

I put this comment up elsewhere and thought readers here might be interested.
WA is preparing to respond to proposals to change the Firearms Act for

    Firearms Prohibition Orders for people who some police person chooses to designate, which make them subject to savage search and prohibition of possession or actions on very, very vaguely described grounds;
    Major efforts to ban firearm and ammunition precursors which might easily include sheet steel, water pipe, household chemicals etc.
    Banning even the most minor repairs by hobbyists;
    Apparent banning possession of information including drawings of parts and repair instructions or gunsmithing discussions which might be found in any shooting magazine back articles and including technical firearms books such as Skennerton's collectors' publications.


The SSAA has issued a news release which suggests they will respond next year.
SFFP have I imagine got something happening (despite us being ungrateful for not trying harder to vote for them, as the all-powerful Liberals were reduced to a cross-bench one-member party).
The minor Facebook groups like Shooters Union have published alarming stories.

We should not allow it to be forgotten that the Parliament had before it a major project from the Law Reform Commission of WA to improve, rationalise and modernise the WA Firearms Act. The Parliament refused to schedule anything.

The Discussion Paper and Final Report of that Law Reform Commission work were a big deal. And the Final Report says that the response and participation in the project was absolutely huge, and gave the opportunity to really do some good. In my opinion, the Final Report gave the Police way too much power to rape the innocent licenced gun owner. Yet it had NOTHING as horrific as is now being proposed.

As a principle, Western Australians should have the same modest levels of freedom from being bureaucratically raped that other Australians enjoy.
    one hour to five day turnaround on PTAs
    A non-stupid fee level for PTAs
    Five year renewals of licences
    Ability to store, transport, borrow or even just hold other shooters rifles of a type you are already licenced for.
    How about access to mail for inert components like cases and projies? And freight between dealers for anything? And reasonable enforcement of safe storage for dealers, eg paying for massive increases in security demanded by bureaucrats?
    Membership and shooting access proven for genuine reason not having to be re-done for every addition.
    No aggressive over-enforcement against the innocent, e.g. charges for having a fired case outside the ammo safe.
    And how about basic reasonable things like allowing an airgun range in the garage, or permitted hunting ferals on crown land?
The LRC documents are here:
https://www.wa.gov.au/government/publications/project-105-review-of-the-firearms-act-1973-wa


We should be asking what benefit these proposals offer to the public. The Police have plenty of laws already, and they abuse them. I have no doubt that empire-building counterterrorism and org crime bureaucrats are willing to take our freedoms for their promotion in the public service and Police, but we should be asking if they have time to do us this much harm, why can Parliament not also do good?
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Re: FIREARMS AMENDMENT BILL 2021

Post by Bill » 10 Dec 2021, 9:05 pm

Police Commissioners should have nothing to do with Firearm Legislation.

After all they are Political picks chosen by the Govt's of the day and don't reflect reality of Firearm use.
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Re: FIREARMS AMENDMENT BILL 2021

Post by Oldbloke » 19 Jan 2022, 1:48 am

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Re: FIREARMS AMENDMENT BILL 2021

Post by womble » 19 Jan 2022, 2:53 am

Oh no,
What will criminals do now that they can’t own licenced firearms. :unknown:
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Re: FIREARMS AMENDMENT BILL 2021

Post by bladeracer » 19 Jan 2022, 4:00 pm

Oldbloke wrote:https://sifa.net.au/wa-proposes-new-firearm-laws-that-will-have-major-unintended-consequences/?fbclid=IwAR0IgpzOe1rtMSajA6ko4iVVGQ1TqNWwNbDq1iEGO_9xwQmOWD5plvv9evE


"In May 2021, SIFA became aware that Western Australia was planning to overhaul their firearms regulations in the wake of escalating gun violence from outlaw motorcycle gangs.

Following this discovery, SIFA met with the WA Police Minister the Hon. Paul Papalia, who confirmed the reform agenda and highlighted the raft of changes that were planned.

Despite SIFA pushing for consultation during the drafting of the legislative amendments, we were advised by the Minister that no consultation would be entered into.

In the final WA Parliamentary sitting of 2021, the Firearms Amendment Bill 2021 was introduced into the WA parliament. This bill proposes numerous changes to WA’s Firearms Act, many of which will have serious consequences for WA’s licensed firearms dealers and shooters.

The full extent of the impact of this bill is being worked through and assessed, however it is already clear that the ramifications should not be underestimated. Some of the major issues we have identified are as follows:

Classifying inert firearms parts that are unregulated in other jurisdictions such as a rifle chassis as a major firearm part requiring permits to purchase.
Making the repair or modification of a firearm without authority illegal.
Possessing plans, instructions, drawings and books in hard or electronic form, of firearms or major firearm parts will become illegal.
Any ‘thing’ deemed as a precursor in the manufacturing of a firearms will become illegal. A thing is defined as any machinery, equipment, object or device.
Reloading ammunition, possessing reloading manuals and equipment without a manufacturing license can be deemed illegal manufacturing.
Increased storage requirements on licensed dealers to include things deemed to be ‘major firearms parts’.
Increased reporting on licensed dealers to include things that are not regulated in other jurisdictions.
Removal of a licensed firearms dealer’s ability to transact in firearms surrendered in a firearms amnesty.

Given that the WA Government has refused to follow normal consultative processes, it appears that no consideration at all has been given to lawful activities. SIFA will be tackling this head-on in an attempt to get a better deal for the entire Australian shooting industry.

SIFA has formed a unified taskforce and given the current travel restrictions, we have engaged a team of professionals on the ground in WA who will work directly with SIFA management in an attempt to limit the unintended consequences this disastrous bill will have on the Australian shooting industry."
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Re: FIREARMS AMENDMENT BILL 2021

Post by 1886 » 20 Jan 2022, 9:26 pm

Happy New Year Team.
Pleased to announce that your SSAA WA, the peak representative body of firearms owners in Western Australia, were invited to a meeting today with the Honarable Paul Papalia CSC MLA the Minister for Police and his advisors regarding the recent proposed Firearms Amendment Bill.
The Minister addressed your concerns on the Amendments, stating the intention wasn't to hamper activities of law abiding firearms owners.
We have received a positive commitment for further consultation throughout the legislative process.
We will inform you of further developments as we work with the key stakeholders in this process.
Go to ssaawa.org.au to join and see the benefits of membership with the Sporting Shooters Association Of Australia WA Inc.
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Re: FIREARMS AMENDMENT BILL 2021

Post by boingk » 20 Jan 2022, 11:27 pm

"The Minister addressed your concerns on the Amendments, stating the intention wasn't to hamper activities of law abiding firearms owners."

Despite the ramifications if inacted being completely opposite.

Happy New Year indeed.
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Re: FIREARMS AMENDMENT BILL 2021

Post by cz515 » 21 Jan 2022, 5:46 am

Hey why do we care about WA, it's no longer a part of Australia
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Re: FIREARMS AMENDMENT BILL 2021

Post by Bugman » 21 Jan 2022, 7:00 am

cz515 wrote:Hey why do we care about WA, it's no longer a part of Australia


WA? What and where is WA?
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Re: FIREARMS AMENDMENT BILL 2021

Post by MontyShooter » 21 Jan 2022, 7:47 am

cz515 wrote:Hey why do we care about WA, it's no longer a part of Australia


Yeh they are certainly making a bed to sleep in over there.
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Re: FIREARMS AMENDMENT BILL 2021

Post by Oldbloke » 21 Jan 2022, 11:56 am

"We have received a positive commitment for further consultation throughout the legislative process.
We will inform you of further developments as we work with the key stakeholders in this process."

Wow, I'm impressed. :sarcasm:
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Re: FIREARMS AMENDMENT BILL 2021

Post by womble » 21 Jan 2022, 12:21 pm

Am somewhat confused.
Are the key stakeholders the law abiding gun owners or the criminal gangs ?
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Re: FIREARMS AMENDMENT BILL 2021

Post by geoff » 21 Jan 2022, 12:34 pm

It's an interesting amendment to be sure. I would recommend any and all read the actual amended bill - WAPOL have their own agenda, as does the Minister, as does SSAA. I'm not sure any party is really telling the whole story, based on my own interpretation.

Certainly lots to be concerned about.

The redefinition of ammunition is a good thing though - no longer considering a spent cartridge as ammunition benefits us all greatly.

I am not personally concerned that they are banning reloading per se, like a lot seem to think, my chief concern is that my reloading press and dies etc are considered Firearms Technology as far as I can tell. That section is absolute trash.
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Re: FIREARMS AMENDMENT BILL 2021

Post by bladeracer » 21 Jan 2022, 12:50 pm

geoff wrote:It's an interesting amendment to be sure. I would recommend any and all read the actual amended bill - WAPOL have their own agenda, as does the Minister, as does SSAA. I'm not sure any party is really telling the whole story, based on my own interpretation.

Certainly lots to be concerned about.

The redefinition of ammunition is a good thing though - no longer considering a spent cartridge as ammunition benefits us all greatly.

I am not personally concerned that they are banning reloading per se, like a lot seem to think, my chief concern is that my reloading press and dies etc are considered Firearms Technology as far as I can tell. That section is absolute trash.


The WA law already excludes brass - new or spent - from the definition though, only WAPOL decided it wasn't. The law defines ammunition components as those items propelled from a firearm.
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Re: FIREARMS AMENDMENT BILL 2021

Post by geoff » 21 Jan 2022, 1:49 pm

bladeracer wrote:
geoff wrote:It's an interesting amendment to be sure. I would recommend any and all read the actual amended bill - WAPOL have their own agenda, as does the Minister, as does SSAA. I'm not sure any party is really telling the whole story, based on my own interpretation.

Certainly lots to be concerned about.

The redefinition of ammunition is a good thing though - no longer considering a spent cartridge as ammunition benefits us all greatly.

I am not personally concerned that they are banning reloading per se, like a lot seem to think, my chief concern is that my reloading press and dies etc are considered Firearms Technology as far as I can tell. That section is absolute trash.


The WA law already excludes brass - new or spent - from the definition though, only WAPOL decided it wasn't. The law defines ammunition components as those items propelled from a firearm.


You're incorrect there bladeracer, the law currently does not exclude brass, certainly not explicitly:

Image

This is a poor definition that is open to such wide interpretation and that's how we got into this mess. The proposed amendment is more descriptive and excludes spent casings and primers:

Image

People in WA have been charged and convicted of unsafe storage offences pertaining to spent casings rolling around in a ute or spent primers on their reloading bench.

I'm by no means on Team Government here....The new definition isnt perfect, or even that great, but it is objectively better than the old one at least. That's about as much as we are going to be able to hope for in the McGowan Kingdom. There's a huge and valid argument to be made that components not assembled shouldn't eb considered ammunition, and I support that, but it'll never happen.

Even if it did, there are constructive intent provisions later in the amendment that would nullify it anyway.
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Re: FIREARMS AMENDMENT BILL 2021

Post by Communism_Is_Cancer » 21 Jan 2022, 2:15 pm

Personally I think no gun laws work. However these changes in WA do absolutely nothing to prevent crime. It is already illegal for bikies to possess firearms and ammunition, so what difference would it make for them to possess reloading equipment or so called blueprints?
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Re: FIREARMS AMENDMENT BILL 2021

Post by bladeracer » 21 Jan 2022, 2:17 pm

"Designed for discharge _from_ a firearm" excludes the brass case, the case is not discharged from the firearm. If they said discharge _in_ a firearm it would likely include the case. Anybody in WA that has been charged for possession of empty brass should've fought it on this alone.

geoff wrote:
bladeracer wrote:
geoff wrote:It's an interesting amendment to be sure. I would recommend any and all read the actual amended bill - WAPOL have their own agenda, as does the Minister, as does SSAA. I'm not sure any party is really telling the whole story, based on my own interpretation.

Certainly lots to be concerned about.

The redefinition of ammunition is a good thing though - no longer considering a spent cartridge as ammunition benefits us all greatly.

I am not personally concerned that they are banning reloading per se, like a lot seem to think, my chief concern is that my reloading press and dies etc are considered Firearms Technology as far as I can tell. That section is absolute trash.


The WA law already excludes brass - new or spent - from the definition though, only WAPOL decided it wasn't. The law defines ammunition components as those items propelled from a firearm.


You're incorrect there bladeracer, the law currently does not exclude brass, certainly not explicitly:

Image

This is a poor definition that is open to such wide interpretation and that's how we got into this mess. The proposed amendment is more descriptive and excludes spent casings and primers:

Image

People in WA have been charged and convicted of unsafe storage offences pertaining to spent casings rolling around in a ute or spent primers on their reloading bench.

I'm by no means on Team Government here....The new definition isnt perfect, or even that great, but it is objectively better than the old one at least. That's about as much as we are going to be able to hope for in the McGowan Kingdom. There's a huge and valid argument to be made that components not assembled shouldn't eb considered ammunition, and I support that, but it'll never happen.

Even if it did, there are constructive intent provisions later in the amendment that would nullify it anyway.
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Re: FIREARMS AMENDMENT BILL 2021

Post by geoff » 21 Jan 2022, 2:23 pm

bladeracer wrote:"Designed for discharge _from_ a firearm" excludes the brass case, the case is not discharged from the firearm. If they said discharge _in_ a firearm it would likely include the case. Anybody in WA that has been charged for possession of empty brass should've fought it on this alone.

geoff wrote:
bladeracer wrote:
geoff wrote:It's an interesting amendment to be sure. I would recommend any and all read the actual amended bill - WAPOL have their own agenda, as does the Minister, as does SSAA. I'm not sure any party is really telling the whole story, based on my own interpretation.

Certainly lots to be concerned about.

The redefinition of ammunition is a good thing though - no longer considering a spent cartridge as ammunition benefits us all greatly.

I am not personally concerned that they are banning reloading per se, like a lot seem to think, my chief concern is that my reloading press and dies etc are considered Firearms Technology as far as I can tell. That section is absolute trash.


The WA law already excludes brass - new or spent - from the definition though, only WAPOL decided it wasn't. The law defines ammunition components as those items propelled from a firearm.


You're incorrect there bladeracer, the law currently does not exclude brass, certainly not explicitly:

Image

This is a poor definition that is open to such wide interpretation and that's how we got into this mess. The proposed amendment is more descriptive and excludes spent casings and primers:

Image

People in WA have been charged and convicted of unsafe storage offences pertaining to spent casings rolling around in a ute or spent primers on their reloading bench.

I'm by no means on Team Government here....The new definition isnt perfect, or even that great, but it is objectively better than the old one at least. That's about as much as we are going to be able to hope for in the McGowan Kingdom. There's a huge and valid argument to be made that components not assembled shouldn't eb considered ammunition, and I support that, but it'll never happen.

Even if it did, there are constructive intent provisions later in the amendment that would nullify it anyway.


I get what you're saying but the operative part of that definition that brings brass under it is "component of ammunition designed for discharge from a firearm".

A case is clearly a component of something that was designed, at one point in its life, to be discharged from a firearm. We all use the term component ourselves when we discuss reloading. Without specifically excluding anything spent, it's an easy claim for WAPOL to make unfortunately.
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Re: FIREARMS AMENDMENT BILL 2021

Post by Oldbloke » 21 Jan 2022, 3:05 pm

IMHO Geoff is correct. All components are ammo in WA.

WAPOL want to screw all LAFO without lube. Its as simple as that.
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Re: FIREARMS AMENDMENT BILL 2021

Post by bladeracer » 21 Jan 2022, 3:06 pm

It is a component of ammunition, no argument, but at no point was it ever designed to be discharged from a firearm.
It is designed to be discharged within a firearm, never from one.
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Re: FIREARMS AMENDMENT BILL 2021

Post by Oldbloke » 21 Jan 2022, 3:09 pm

bladeracer wrote:It is a component of ammunition, no argument, but at no point was it ever designed to be discharged from a firearm.
It is designed to be discharged within a firearm, never from one.


It is an interesting point. BUT how deep are your pockets? Lawyers are not cheap.
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Re: FIREARMS AMENDMENT BILL 2021

Post by bladeracer » 21 Jan 2022, 3:34 pm

Oldbloke wrote:
bladeracer wrote:It is a component of ammunition, no argument, but at no point was it ever designed to be discharged from a firearm.
It is designed to be discharged within a firearm, never from one.


It is an interesting point. BUT how deep are your pockets? Lawyers are not cheap.



I find it a very simple defense, it should be sufficient for the Police to drop the case before it goes to court.
If Police want the law to include empty brass - which they most certainly do - then they need to petition to change the law, instead of making up their own.
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Re: FIREARMS AMENDMENT BILL 2021

Post by geoff » 21 Jan 2022, 4:10 pm

bladeracer wrote:
Oldbloke wrote:
bladeracer wrote:It is a component of ammunition, no argument, but at no point was it ever designed to be discharged from a firearm.
It is designed to be discharged within a firearm, never from one.


It is an interesting point. BUT how deep are your pockets? Lawyers are not cheap.



I find it a very simple defense, it should be sufficient for the Police to drop the case before it goes to court.
If Police want the law to include empty brass - which they most certainly do - then they need to petition to change the law, instead of making up their own.
WA is the toilet for firearm owners.


Far be it for me of all people to ever appear to take the side of the police, but where do you think the revised definition, explicitly excluding spent brass, came from? It wasn't the Minister and it certainly wasn't the Premier
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Re: FIREARMS AMENDMENT BILL 2021

Post by bladeracer » 21 Jan 2022, 4:41 pm

geoff wrote:
bladeracer wrote:
Oldbloke wrote:
bladeracer wrote:It is a component of ammunition, no argument, but at no point was it ever designed to be discharged from a firearm.
It is designed to be discharged within a firearm, never from one.


It is an interesting point. BUT how deep are your pockets? Lawyers are not cheap.



I find it a very simple defense, it should be sufficient for the Police to drop the case before it goes to court.
If Police want the law to include empty brass - which they most certainly do - then they need to petition to change the law, instead of making up their own.
WA is the toilet for firearm owners.


Far be it for me of all people to ever appear to take the side of the police, but where do you think the revised definition, explicitly excluding spent brass, came from? It wasn't the Minister and it certainly wasn't the Premier


Not sure what point you are trying to make.
Maybe the Police trying to clarify the law so they no longer have a bunch of these cases getting thrown out of court? It would be simpler to just instruct their officers to follow the existing law instead of trying to make their own interpretations on them. The _existing_ law says that unless the component is specifically discharged from the firearm, and is not a primer or propellant, then it is not included in the definition of a component.

What does WA say about wads, shot cups, over-powder/shot discs, and gas checks?
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