Lead loads in 45-70

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Re: Lead loads in 45-70

Post by bladeracer » 15 Sep 2021, 4:23 pm

Blr243 wrote:Even when I buy roof flashing lead from Bunnings I’m pretty sure my 405 pills still work out roughly 25 cents each


Bunnings is about $12/kg for 600mm-square 5.4kg sheets, or a 36kg roll for $325 gets it down to $9/kg, which would put you around the 25c apiece. Depending on how much dross you scrape off, a 36kg roll gives you about 1300 405gn bullets.
https://www.bunnings.com.au/consolidated-alloys-600mm-x-6m-x-10kg-lead-sheet-roll_p1124582

If you keep an eye on dealers you occasionally get emails with cast bullets at great specials, cheaper than buying lead or alloy on its own. But they're invariably hard-cast bullets. I followed some dive shops for a while as they occasionally advertised weights for sub-$10/kg, but I never bought from them. No idea what the alloy is likely to be.

A case of 250 1oz field loads gives you 7.3kg of shot, which come up now and then for $90, again though it's usually harder than pure lead.

But I prefer to buy my lead in 40gn pieces that they use to plug the end of .22LR cartridges to keep the smoke in :-)
Find a case of 40gn .22LR for about $500, spend a lot of fun time shooting it into somewhere you can recover the 13.33kg of lead, and use that for casting.
Costs $37.50 per kg, but comes with many hours of enjoyment :-)
Cleaver for example:
Winchester Wildcat is $395/5000rds.
Win Superspeed is $390/5000rds.
Win T22 is $500/5000rds.
Fed F714 is $470/5000rds.
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Re: Lead loads in 45-70

Post by Blr243 » 15 Sep 2021, 4:35 pm

I did a job for years where I had access to oodles of left over new roof flashing with no contamination... sometimes there were bloody rolls leftover. And I just gave it all away to whoever wanted it. This was years before I got into casting my own. Bad timing Can’t believe I’m buying it now after giving away hundreds of dollars worth in the past
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Re: Lead loads in 45-70

Post by bigrich » 15 Sep 2021, 5:32 pm

Blr243 wrote:Big rich can u please share your nick Harvey low FPS lead loads with 2208 and 2219. Pretty sure I have those powders ?


Here ya go , straight from uncle nick’s bible
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Re: Lead loads in 45-70

Post by bigrich » 15 Sep 2021, 5:34 pm

Try again, it was the right way on my phone. these figures are for 1886 winchester and trapdoor springfeild . these figures came from uncle nick's 10th edition. the data given in this edition for 1895"s is hotter than this data for jacketed projectiles . this data does not say if it's for lead or jacketed , so as always use caution . maybe cross refeerance with adi . i checked and the 2208 and 2207 listings are about right for lead as in the latest adi manual . interesting is data in the ADI manual ,the case fill and speed for ar2206h for 405gn lead 40-48gn for 1424fps - 1645fps out of a 24" barrel . food for thought

a lot of yanks use alliant 2400 for lead loads . as you can see blr some of these loads have good case fill from some powders . with small powder loads in the big 45-70 case dacron is used as a case filler to keep the powder near the primer for consistant ignition and accuracy . for those that may not know , dacron is the fluffy stuff used to coat foam in upholstery before it's covered with the cloth/leather .

hope this is as helpful to some as it has been for me . now , back to more research :D
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Re: Lead loads in 45-70

Post by Blr243 » 15 Sep 2021, 5:56 pm

Thanks very much for that ! That will keep me busy
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Re: Lead loads in 45-70

Post by bigrich » 15 Sep 2021, 6:00 pm

Blr243 wrote:Thanks very much for that ! That will keep me busy


use caution mate , play safe . reread what i've posted as i did edit to try to make things clearer :thumbsup:

let us know how you go :D
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Re: Lead loads in 45-70

Post by LawrenceA » 15 Sep 2021, 6:06 pm

Try scrap yards for old flashing. Last time I bought pure lead it was $3 a kilo but needed melting, fluxing and so on.
One well placed shot is all it takes.
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Re: Lead loads in 45-70

Post by Blr243 » 15 Sep 2021, 6:10 pm

I have never tried fillers. Currently I’m running with the “ never use a filler of any kind theory “ Instead I use powders not position sensitive or use good case fill percentages
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Re: Lead loads in 45-70

Post by Blr243 » 15 Sep 2021, 6:11 pm

Thanks very much for that ! That will keep me busy
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Re: Lead loads in 45-70

Post by Blr243 » 15 Sep 2021, 6:13 pm

I never flux ( candle wax ) when casting .....does this matter ? My cast Bullets look fine
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Re: Lead loads in 45-70

Post by LawrenceA » 15 Sep 2021, 6:50 pm

The right flux will help with alloys as it will reduce Tin Oxide back to tin.
Not sure it helps with pure lead but I tend to put some saw dust and beeswax in and give it a stir.
It is most important in recovering lead to make ingots rather than actual bullet casting.
I believe it helps but who knows........
One well placed shot is all it takes.
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Re: Lead loads in 45-70

Post by LawrenceA » 15 Sep 2021, 6:54 pm

Blr243 wrote:I have never tried fillers. Currently I’m running with the “ never use a filler of any kind theory “ Instead I use powders not position sensitive or use good case fill percentages

Same here.
Told breadcrumbs works well. Smells like toast.
Also need to be careful with fillers as the wrong one can compact and basically form an obstruction. Not an issue with the 45-70 though.
In the Trapdoor (so black powder) I do use a wad column consisting of 1 thick cards, a lubed felt wad and 2 thin cards sitting at bullet base.
This scrapes most of the crap out of the barrel on firing as well as ensuring adequate lube so dont really need to clean between shots ever. :allegedly:
One well placed shot is all it takes.
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Re: Lead loads in 45-70

Post by Gamerancher » 16 Sep 2021, 10:48 am

The trouble with scrap or salvaged lead is that you don't know it's purity. Fluxing will help remove any lighter metals, ( they tend to oxidise before the lead ), that are in the mix. Just about anything that will produce "activated" carbon on burning will work as a flux, sawdust is used by a lot of folks, just make sure it is dry.
This is in relation to melting down a bunch of scrap lead to give a clean metal to then use for bullet making. I pour this melt into ingots for later use in my electric casting pots.
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Re: Lead loads in 45-70

Post by boingk » 16 Sep 2021, 11:27 am

^ yup, spot on.

As an aside, I use an old muffin tin for ingots. Perfect size, gives roughly 1.5 pound per ingot, and usually free if you've got some lying around, or a buck from the op shop if you don't.

- boingk

Lawrence wrote:wad column consisting of 1 thick cards, a lubed felt wad and 2 thin cards sitting at bullet base.
This scrapes most of the crap out of the barrel on firing as well as ensuring adequate lube


Awesome, I'll give this a shot in the future. Thanks mate!

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Re: Lead loads in 45-70

Post by bigrich » 16 Sep 2021, 12:23 pm

Muffin tins ? Bread crumbs as filler so your rifle smells like toast when you let a shot off ?

Just stop it you’re making me hungry :lol:

Do you guys have any low carb versions I can use for my reloading :D

Nah seriously, interesting stuff. Cooking second hand lead is more involved than I had considered

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Re: Lead loads in 45-70

Post by bladeracer » 16 Sep 2021, 12:59 pm

Blr243 wrote:I never flux ( candle wax ) when casting .....does this matter ? My cast Bullets look fine


From Fryxell:

http://www.lasc.us/FryxellFluxing.htm

The "Simple" Act of Fluxing
By: Glen E. Fryxell

Questions that often get asked by bullet casters just getting started are, "What's the best flux to use?", "How much flux should I use?", and "How often should I flux the pot?".
The source of this confusion is easy to find; just about everything that can burn, smoke or raise a stink has been reported at one point or another as a flux for bullet metal, usually with varied claims of success.

Some of the more commonly recommended materials are paraffin, beeswax, bullet lube, oiled sawdust, and rosin, as well as a variety of commercially available formulations. Heck, I've even seen used motor oil recommended to flux bullet metal (this just can't be a good way to make points with one's Better Half, or even the neighbors!). About the only thing I haven't seen recommended is tire rubber, but it wouldn't surprise me if somebody has tried it!

Let's look at what a flux is expected to do, and how some of the different fluxes work. When we melt a pot of bullet metal, we have a high temperature pool of liquid metal in contact with the air. The oxygen in the air slowly oxidizes the metal at the interface; the hotter the metal, the faster this oxidation takes place. Since this is a heated liquid pool, convection leads to rapid turnover at the surface of the liquid, and the more easily oxidized components of the melt are preferentially oxidized as this mixing takes place. The resulting oxides are almost always insoluble in the molten alloy, so they tend to separate and form a separate phase. In the case of bullet casting alloys, tin is more readily oxidized than is lead, so the tin oxide forms a "skin" across the surface of the melt.

Some of the other metals that may be present as minor impurities are even easier to oxidize, and "follow" the tin up into the "skin" (lead is pretty dense stuff and most all of these oxides are of lower density, so they float).

What we want a flux to do is to remove those impurities that affect the surface tension of the alloy and cause problems during casting (most notable here are things like calcium, aluminum, zinc and copper). In addition, we want to remove any wettable particulate matter that might go on to form inclusions in our bullets. Since tin is so valuable to the bullet caster, it would be helpful if we could slow down, or even reverse its oxidation. These are the things that we ask a flux to do.

Some folks seem to think that if they sprinkle some "magic powder" on the top of their lead pot and it pops and fizzles, smokes and stinks, then presumably all of these things are being accomplished. T'aint necessarily so. While it may be fun to put on a wizard's cap and play modern alchemist for a little while, that doesn't automatically force the chemistry to conform to the wizard's wishes.

Now that we know what we want a flux to do, let's look at how some of the different fluxes work.

Waxes, greases, oils and other hydrocarbon fluxes all serve as a sacrificial reductant and reduce the tin oxide back to the metallic state, returning it to the molten alloy, where it can still do the caster some good (reduction is the reverse of oxidation). In addition, if used in sufficient quantity to form a pool across the entire surface of the alloy (usually about 1/4" deep), then the molten wax forms a barrier to prevent oxygen from re-oxidizing the tin during the course of the casting session.

Paraffin and beeswax are both equally effective in doing this (but paraffin is much cheaper, I prefer to save the beeswax for bullet lube, where its flow properties provide major advantages over paraffin). Using paraffin as a bullet flux has the advantage of being cheap and widely available in most grocery stores, but it doesn't necessarily remove detrimental impurities, like calcium, aluminum, copper and zinc.

Some of the commercial bullet fluxes are formulations that have the advantage of generating virtually no smoke or odor (in contrast to the waxes just discussed). These formulations are commonly based on borax, or other boric acid derivatives. The way these commercial fluxes work is to combine with the oxidized components of the alloy (including any oxidized tin) and form an insoluble molten borate glass, which collects on top of the melt as a dark molten crust. This process is smoke-free and cleans the alloy very effectively, but the dark molten crust must be removed to prevent inclusions in the bullets. Unfortunately, any oxidized tin is also removed in this process. Relatively little of these borate-based fluxes is needed to effectively clean up bullet metal (only about half a teaspoon is needed for a 10 lb pot), but too much can cause problems by generating excessive amounts of this molasses-like glass that sticks to the ladle and lead-pot, and can cause inclusions if not removed.

Sawdust is another material that has been used as a flux for bullet metal, and it has the advantages of both the previous classes of bullet fluxes (it has often been employed in conjunction with oil, but all that does is make fluxing smokier and smellier). Sawdust is also a sacrificial reductant that reduces tin, thereby returning it to the melt (again, reduction is the opposite of oxidation). It also has many building blocks (lignin's, tannins, gallates, etc.) that bind to oxidized metals. Lead, tin and antimony are fairly easy to reduce back to the metallic state, others are not so easy.

Of particular interest to the bullet caster are calcium, aluminum and zinc -- all of which are difficult to reduce and all of which cause casting problems if present in any significant amount (they muck up the surface tension of the alloy and prevent the alloy from filling out the mould properly). As the sawdust chars, it can be thought of as a kind of activated carbon. Both the lignin's of the original sawdust and the oxygenated sites of the activated carbon are very effective at binding metal ions like calcium, aluminum and zinc. Thus, the advantage of sawdust is that it does both jobs, returning the tin to the melt and removing the problematic impurities. Sawdust has the added benefit of being free.

I generally use walnut sawdust, left over from my grip-making activities. Different types of wood are known to give rise to grades of activated carbon with different activities, but whether or not this would make any difference to the bullet caster I don't know (doubtful, any sawdust should work just as well, and some, like cedar, redwood and pine smell awful purty!). A heaping tablespoon is just about right for a 10 lb pot, stirred in thoroughly to begin with and then left in place. Halfway through the pot, the lead-pot is stirred again, this time the activated carbon (dross) is removed. By leaving the charred sawdust on the melt for the first half or so of the casting session, a barrier is formed to slow down the oxidation of the tin, and by removing the charred dross before reaching the bottom, the sequestered impurities are removed before they can sneak through the bottom-pour spout and possibly cause inclusions.

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Re: Lead loads in 45-70

Post by Blr243 » 16 Sep 2021, 6:31 pm

Thanks blade for putting that up. Knowing why we should do something is always better than just attempting to follow instructions
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Re: Lead loads in 45-70

Post by Gamerancher » 17 Sep 2021, 8:46 am

Gee, if only I had access to this "Google" thing...... :sarcasm:
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Re: Lead loads in 45-70

Post by bladeracer » 17 Sep 2021, 12:22 pm

Gamerancher wrote:Gee, if only I had access to this "Google" thing...... :sarcasm:


I wish I had it forty years ago :-)
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Re: Lead loads in 45-70

Post by bigrich » 18 Sep 2021, 6:59 am

bladeracer wrote:
Gamerancher wrote:Gee, if only I had access to this "Google" thing...... :sarcasm:


I wish I had it forty years ago :-)



well back in the day , there were these things called books ....... :lol:

just kidding blade :D i have a lot of useful knowledge and great fiction/non fiction stories on my shelves , as do you from the "do you read" post

i think society is dumbing down due to people getting shorter attention spans from staring at screens rather than using their mind to process the written word into thoughts and mental pictures/scenes :thumbsup:
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Re: Lead loads in 45-70

Post by Ron Hawkins » 25 Apr 2022, 11:45 am

I cast my loads of soft lead for my buffalo classic 45/70. Bullet mold CBE 535-459 and using 2ffg black powder that 535grn bullet is pretty accurate, I lubesize my slugs in a lyman lubesizer using 459 die and my recipe for lube. I have now moved to Tassie from qld and we cant get black powder down here, soI am trying to work up a trailboss load atm, i have worked up to 14.5grns of TB, it gets the slugs out there but I have lost a fair bit of acccuracy, so its a work in progress. Any thoughst would be appreciated. Im mainly shooting steel down here out to 300yds.
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Re: Lead loads in 45-70

Post by Wrangler » 21 Jun 2022, 12:40 pm

Hi all first post anywhere ever for me
I have had encouraging results with cast bullets in a 444 marlin using NOE mould I can cast flat nose cup point or hollow point bullets that weigh in at 270 265 and 250 gr with a gas check fitted
Bullet material is 50/50 by weight clip on wheel weight lead and pure lead (scrounged roof flashing) no idea of Brinell hardness but reasonably soft
The 265gr cup point gas checked bullet sized .002 over barrel groove dia pushed to aboooout 1700fps with 2206h shoots accurately and performed well on 3 fallow stags this rut just past
All rattled in to less than 40 yards 2 were pass throughs 1 the bullet was found under the skin on the off side flattened nicely and still weighing 170grn all 3 stags expired within 10 yards
I have marlin cowboy in 45/70 that I cast for but have not hunted with cast as yet but will try a similar approach
I believe CBE 405gr FN at around 1500fps should do well with a similarly soft bullet material
When hunting with cast bullets I always try to hit bone
Hopefully this helps someone along the track without having to do a lot of guessing or testing, time that could be spent hunting with cast bullets
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