Wonnangatta murders

[Oldbloke]

Old mate is going to stand trial for killing old bloke.

You wish.

[Oldbloke]

I've been closely following the Greg Lynn trial.

This popped up today.

Who thinks this is a bullet fragment? (After it hit a woman in the head)

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-05-30/ ... /103912258

0c6bf6ab61ced9f66b267c0727f24324.jpeg (135.73 KiB) Viewed 2770 times

Could it be remains of a lead slug?

[bladeracer]

I've been closely following the Greg Lynn trial.

This popped up today.

Who thinks this is a bullet fragment? (After it hit a woman in the head)

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-05-30/ ... /103912258

0c6bf6ab61ced9f66b267c0727f24324.jpeg

Could it be remains of a lead slug?

A scale would help. Doesn't look like bullets I've recovered. Could it have been melted in a fire perhaps?

[Oldbloke]

Yep, no scale. And no way its been melted. I also have doubts. But the expert said it has her DNA on it.

As I understand it story goes shot went through car exterior mirror first then hit her (Mrs clay) in head.

Screenshot_20240530-232923_Samsung Internet.jpg (176.54 KiB) Viewed 2759 times

[bladeracer]

Yep, no scale. And no way its been melted. I also have doubts. But the expert said it has her DNA on it.

As I understand it story goes shot went through car exterior mirror first then hit her (Mrs clay) in head.

Screenshot_20240530-232923_Samsung Internet.jpg

By "slug" do they mean shotgun slug? The texture of the lead doesn't look right to me. The shape does resemble some slugs I've recovered as they often have a huge hollow core that does tend to unwind at impact.

[Oldbloke]

Yes, Lynn said he was hunting deer.
12g slug is legal ammo for hunting deer.

[bladeracer]

Yes, Lynn said he was hunting deer.
12g slug is legal ammo for hunting deer.

Yes, I know. Just wasn't sure if they were using some slang term for bullet
I don't think I've seen bullets unwind themselves like slugs do.

[Oldbloke]

Sooo, do you think its the remains of a 12g slug?

[bladeracer]

Sooo, do you think its the remains of a 12g slug?

I think that it could be. Just the texture doesn't look right to me, looks like it's been melted.

[mchughcb]

I've pulled solid slugs out of trees that have deformed similar to that. I find it hard to believe after so many years and burning of body parts that any viable DNA could be found on the slug.

The prosecution is saying that Hill threaten to go to the police for Lynne deer hunting near the camp with drone footage.

[Oldbloke]

I've pulled solid slugs out of trees that have deformed similar to that. I find it hard to believe after so many years and burning of body parts that any viable DNA could be found on the slug.

The prosecution is saying that Hill threaten to go to the police for Lynne deer hunting near the camp with drone footage.

Interesting. I wouldn't have expected that result.

The slug was found in their oid camp where they reakon she was shot.

If you look closely it has what looks like whats left if grooves that are in some slugs. Soo, starting to sound like it's the slug.

[mchughcb]

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-05-28/ ... /103903004

Was deer hunting with a shotgun.

[Oldbloke]

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-05-28/greg-lynn-missing-campers-murder-trial-shotgun/103903004

Was deer hunting with a shotgun.

Yes, hence the 12g slug question earlier. Perfectly legal.

[5-0]

So are people predicting a guilty or not guilty verdict. He has played it well, seems to have stuck to the same story all along and the police haven't been able to show from what I have read, him lying or being dishonest in his account.

[Oldbloke]

So are people predicting a guilty or not guilty verdict. He has played it well, seems to have stuck to the same story all along and the police haven't been able to show from what I have read, him lying or being dishonest in his account.

Agree, predict he will get off murder. Perhaps something lower like .manslaughter but I don't know how that works.
But i think guilty of fuking with evidence etc.

5 yrs

[Oldbloke]

Strange, the mobiles got a mention. He tossed them in a river.

BUT, no mention of the drone that ive seen?

[Billo]

I reckon he will be done for manslaughter & murder, his story doesnt quite stack up but then again the Prosecutor has to prove the case.

Cant see him getting less than 15yrs as tampering with dead bodies is a crime itself

[Oldbloke]

How does it work for the jury?

If he is on trial for murder, can the jury convict for manslaughter? Or something else?

I thought they just say yes, or no?

[5-0]

How does it work for the jury?

If he is on trial for murder, can the jury convict for manslaughter? Or something else?

I thought they just say yes, or no?

Depends on what he has been charged with as most murder trials have manslaughter as an alternative charge, if the jury is not satisfied the accused person intended to kill or cause really serious injury.

Based on this below, it seems his defense strategy is to argue self-defence/accident with the man and claiming that the other guy was the one who pulled the trigger and killed the woman. Therefore, he should not be convicted of manslaughter.

From https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/melbou ... -hill.html

Lynn claimed Mr Hill accidentally shot Ms Clay through the head as he attempted to wrestle the shotgun away from him.

Pressed upon the bullbar of Mr Hill's Landcruiser, Lynn claimed Mr Hill pulled the trigger, blasting off the side mirror and hitting Ms Clay directly in the head.

Mr Hill died moments later after falling on his own knife during another struggle, Lynn claimed.

[5-0]

How does it work for the jury?

If he is on trial for murder, can the jury convict for manslaughter? Or something else?

I thought they just say yes, or no?

Judge says deaths of Carol Clay and Russell Hill cannot be ruled manslaughter in Greg Lynn trial

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-06-13/ ... /103973136

[Oldbloke]

How does it work for the jury?

If he is on trial for murder, can the jury convict for manslaughter? Or something else?

I thought they just say yes, or no?

Judge says deaths of Carol Clay and Russell Hill cannot be ruled manslaughter in Greg Lynn trial

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-06-13/ ... /103973136

Yes, I read that earlier. Sounded like it was a judge ruling for this case. Sort of suggests it could happen on occasion?

As I said earlier. The prosecutor hasn't really proved guilt, no evidence to speak that proves he pulled the trigger with intent to kill them. He will get off IMO.

[Oldbloke]

Aha, here It is:
Both parties agreed to drop manslaughter.

https://www.9news.com.au/national/greg- ... 6001e2f9b9

IMG_20240613_221135.jpg (180 KiB) Viewed 2349 times

[mchughcb]

I'm no legal scholar but murder is premeditated.

I doubt somebody would drive up to the camp site with evil intent on their mind.

[Oldbloke]

I'm no legal scholar but murder is premeditated.

I doubt somebody would drive up to the camp site with evil intent on their mind.

My understanding too. Has to be planned.

[bladeracer]

I'm no legal scholar but murder is premeditated.

I doubt somebody would drive up to the camp site with evil intent on their mind.

My understanding too. Has to be planned.

Doesn't have to be planned for long though, a few minutes of planning can be enough to show intent.

[Oldbloke]

I'm no legal scholar but murder is premeditated.

I doubt somebody would drive up to the camp site with evil intent on their mind.

My understanding too. Has to be planned.

Doesn't have top be planned for long though, a few minutes of planning can be enough to show intent.

Yeh, I think that's right.

Doesn't look like prosecution has proved that tho.

[Billo]

Gunna be hard for a jury to let a man walk free when 2 elderly people were killed and then had there bodies moved and later burnt.

[Oldbloke]

Gunna be hard for a jury to let a man walk free when 2 elderly people were killed and then had there bodies moved and later burnt.

Yep, if manslaughter was an option it would be guilty I reckon.

I certainly don't understand why that option was removed.

[Oldbloke]

Googled "murder" and got this:

If a victim dies in Victoria, the matter may be tried in a Victorian court, regardless of whether the acts leading to death occurred in Victoria. Different degrees of blameworthiness attach to different offences involving the death of a victim.

Murder
The common law offence of murder is defined as the unlawful and intentional killing of another human being by a person of sound mind. Murder is punishable by a maximum penalty of life imprisonment.

To find a person guilty of murder, the prosecution must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the accused had the intention to kill the victim, cause the victim grievous bodily harm or had reckless indifference to human life. The accused must have been able to foresee that his or her actions or omissions would result in the victim’s death.

Constructive murder
In Victoria, another murder offence exists, which is governed by Section 3A of the Crimes Act 1958 and is sometimes referred to as ‘Section 3A murder’. Section 3A murder is also known as constructive murder, or felony murder, and refers to a death caused in the course or furtherance of a serious crime, such as rape or aggravated robbery. If a person is killed during the commission of such an offence, this is regarded as murder regardless of whether the accused possessed a specific intent to kill the victim.

Reckless murder
Reckless murder is a fatal act in circumstances where the accused knew that death or really serious injury would probably result from his or her actions. It is not enough for the danger to have been apparent to a reasonable person or to the jury; it must have been obvious to the accused.

Really serious injury means bodily injury; psychological injury alone must not be considered really serious injury for the purposes of a murder conviction. What amounts to really serious injury is a matter for the jury.

Single punch manslaughter
Under Section 4A of the Crimes Act, a person can be found guilty of manslaughter after delivering a single punch to a person’s head or neck if that single punch causes the victim’s death. This is the case even if the victim dies from an impact other than the punch itself. For example, if person A punches person B and person B falls over and hits his head on the road and dies, person A is guilty of single punch manslaughter.

Voluntary manslaughter
Voluntary manslaughter is an intentional killing where mitigating factors are present. This may be where a fatal assault is committed in circumstances amounting to provocation, meaning that Voluntary Manslaughter, rather than murder, is the appropriate charge.

Involuntary manslaughter
Involuntary manslaughter is an unlawful killing without intent, such as in a car accident resulting from reckless driving or a death resulting from an illegal and dangerous act. For a court to find a person guilty of involuntary manslaughter, the prosecution must prove that the death was the result of an illegal act, omission an act of neglect, or a failure to take reasonable care.

Defences to murder:
Self-defence
Self-defence can be a complete defence to murder (leading to an acquittal) or a partial defence (leading to a finding of guilt for manslaughter). If the accused carried out the act in self-defence, then the accused is not guilty of murder (Crimes Act, Section 418).

An accused can be found not guilty of murder on the basis of self-defence only if:

The accused acted in self-defence;
There was a reasonable possibility that the accused believed his or her actions were necessary to defend him/herself or another.
In considering whether the accused had a genuine belief that the act was necessary, all the accused’s characteristics and circumstances at the time of the offence will be taken into account. It must then be determined whether the accused’s actions were reasonable in the circumstances as s/he perceived them.

Where the accused believed the conduct was necessary in self-defence, but the infliction of death was not a reasonable response, the accused may be found not guilty of murder but guilty of manslaughter.

Provocation
Provocation was abolished as a defence to murder in Victoria in 2005. However, it can still be argued as a defence in murders alleged to have occurred prior to 2005.

Provocation requires a series of events to have occurred which caused the accused to lose self-control and act ‘in the heat of the moment’ rather than with malice aforethought. This was said to reduce the level of culpability of the act and could reduce a charge of murder to manslaughter. Although the defence of provocation no longer exists, Victoria now has the alternate charge of Voluntary Manslaughter, which can be laid in circumstances where a person was killed in response to provocation.

Other defences that may be run where a person is charged with murder or manslaughter include duress and automatism.

If you require legal help please contact Go To Court Lawyers.

[Larry]

Gunna be hard for a jury to let a man walk free when 2 elderly people were killed and then had there bodies moved and later burnt.

True However this case as everyone that has posted on this page has alluded to it is all about the Judges charging directions that will determine this case. It is strange but for whatever reason the lesser charges that relate more to a person being killed have not been offered as an option to the jury.
He either planned or meant to kill them or he didnt.

I expect that he will walk free. despite the multiple crimes he committed. Perhaps after this trial he will be charged with all the other ancillary crimes he committed while trying to get away from ever being detected.