Firearm homicide USA -vs- Australia.

[Jandamurra]

@Wadeo6-How about reseraching the homicide rates in counties with strict gun control? Did you go to the link I posted?
It's incredibly limited and misleading to compare the US to Australia as if they're the only two countires in the world.
Here it is again:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... icide_rate

[wade06]

@Wadeo6-How about reseraching the homicide rates in counties with strict gun control? Did you go to the link I posted?
It's incredibly limited and misleading to compare the US to Australia as if they're the only two countires in the world.
Here it is again:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... icide_rate

Thanks for the table.... it is rather interesting. Lets just look at some first world countries murder rate per 100k to make things fairer.
US 3.9 ( think its a bit higher but will run with your link)
Canada 1.4
France 1.2
Denmark 1.0
Australia 1.0
Sweden 0.9
Germany 0.9
UK 0.9
NZ 0.9
Italy 0.8
Norway 0.6
Japan 0.3

The US murder rate is substantially higher (3-5x) than any other first world country (that i can see at a quick look) which is from a range of issues.
However you would reasonably expect that gun murders would be proportional to the increased death rate if your argument was true i.e. 4x. However gun homicides are 21x higher in the US than Australia.... but surely that isn't because there are more guns in the US

In 2014 Australia had 0.16 gun homicides per 100,000... the US had 3.43 gun homicides per 100,000.... that's 21x higher
In 2014 Australia had 0.93 gun deaths per 100,000... the US had 10.54 gun deaths per 100,000.... that's 11x higher

In the US about 70% of murders are committed with a gun..... in Australia its about 15%... probably not a coincidence their murder rate AND gun murder rate are higher in the US is it?

Re your gang analogy... if i really wanted to rob someone and knew they had a gun i'd shoot them before they had a chance to use it. If gun access here was easy (handguns in particular) then many crims would certainly get one... not sure how that helps the majority of law abiding Australian citizens who don't want/need a gun on the off chance they "had to" blow a bad guy away because they were stealing their wallet??

[Gwion]

Wade. It honestly is more a cultural thing than a 'number of guns'. That argument is FAR too oversimplified. Australia has traditionally had a high number of guns per capita but a very low rate of gun violence.

The Swiss, for instance have just over 45 guns per 100 people. That's a little over half the number of the US at 88.8; yet they have just under 1/3 the number of gun deaths per capita and (in 2014) only 0.49 firearm murders per 100k of population. That is around 6 times less per capita than the US with only half the number of guns.

Then take an example like Uruguay with only 2 more guns per 100k than Australia, yet they have 11+ gun deaths per 100k per year. Similarly with Philipines. Not even close to the number of guns as Australia (4.7 opposed to 30 per 100 residents) yet they have over 8+ gun deaths per 100k per annum; that's just 2 behind the US.

As you can see, it is easy to think "more guns must = more gun violence" but the reality is that violence of any kind is a cultural thing.

Where I think Australia did go right was restricting access to firearms from those known to be mentally unstable, as well as ensuring safe storage to prevent accidental shootings of kids by kids (although elements of that have been taken beyond what is necessary). Even these measures won't work in the US, though, mainly due to their culture toward health care. It is all cultural and the American Hollywood myth of the great gunfighter and the big shoot out is, I think, behind their high rate of gun violence. The American quest for fame, which if all else fails can be won in a final 'blaze of glory'. There is, I'm sure, more to it but this is s big factor.

[<<Genesis93>>]

I've done the compare several times. ...search the threads...

You need to compare homicide with firearm ownership rates.. lawful and illicit.

Eg.. Serbia has v high firearm ownership they've been trying to remove the war legacy arms... yet similar homicide to Australia.

Iceland has about twice the ownership of a Australia yet they usually have ZERO murder rate and police usually not armed (I expect the waves of immigrant will fix that problem though)

Just 2 unmentioned inconveniences of fact.

[doc]

Guns are just tools, like anything else. If people want to murder someone, they will find a way...

How many forget at the same time of the Lindt siege there was another far more terrible mass murder committed in Australia.

A woman killed 8 children - and that with a knife. If she had a gun she would have used that, and people would be blaming the guns - but there's no cry to reduce knifes in people's houses. That's because the knife was not the cause of the children's death - the person was.

Neither does one blame trains or bridges as the reason people commit suicide. But when it comes to guns - many seem to choose a different set of logic and identify them as the cause of the problem, and reduction as the solution.

It seems that knives kill up to 5 times more people than assault rifles in America. Why are guns still considered to be the big issue?

[wade06]

Compared with any other first world country (that i can see) the US has extremely high gun ownership levels, high murder rates, high gun murder rates, high gun suicides and high accidental gun deaths. Its not a coincidence.

Hypothetically, if every Australian house hold had a gun the murder rate, accidental death and suicide rates WOULD go up.

Again, i'm pro guns but i certainly don't want easy access to semi autos and hand guns in Australia.

[Gwion]

Wade, I'm not arguing that Australia should become more like the US with guns; far from it! The Americanisation (or invasion by cultural export) of Australia has long been a bug bear of mine. All I am saying is that ignoring the cultural differences and world wide gun:violence ratios is over simplistic and is, in essence, erroneous. Forget class distinctions of 1st, 2nd or 3rd world; what it comes down to is dominant and accepted cultural attitudes towards violence and the use of firearms. The number of legal firearms in Australia is well on the rise, yet the incidence of firearms violence remains on a downward trend, taken in an historic context; a trend, I might add, that began well before introduction of the NFA. Also, as stated by law enforcement agencies in last year's senate enquiry into illicit gun crime, firearms violence in Australia has historically been (and remains) almost exclusively the domain of an established criminal sub culture that flaunt all laws and utilise illicit firearms, ie: 'the underworld'.

[happyhunter]

Compared with any other first world country (that i can see) the US has extremely high gun ownership levels, high murder rates, high gun murder rates, high gun suicides and high accidental gun deaths. Its not a coincidence.

Hypothetically, if every Australian house hold had a gun the murder rate, accidental death and suicide rates WOULD go up.

Again, i'm pro guns but i certainly don't want easy access to semi autos and hand guns in Australia.

The issues for which you blame gun ownership are related to gang crime, urban poverty and poor mental health. Introducing a claim with the word "Hypothetically" is a method of introducing unfounded bullsh*t to a debate.

[Jandamurra]

@Wadeo6-How about reseraching the homicide rates in counties with strict gun control? Did you go to the link I posted?
It's incredibly limited and misleading to compare the US to Australia as if they're the only two countires in the world.
Here it is again:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... icide_rate

Thanks for the table.... it is rather interesting. Lets just look at some first world countries murder rate per 100k to make things fairer.
US 3.9 ( think its a bit higher but will run with your link)
Canada 1.4
France 1.2
Denmark 1.0
Australia 1.0
Sweden 0.9
Germany 0.9
UK 0.9
NZ 0.9
Italy 0.8
Norway 0.6
Japan 0.3

The US murder rate is substantially higher (3-5x) than any other first world country (that i can see at a quick look) which is from a range of issues.
However you would reasonably expect that gun murders would be proportional to the increased death rate if your argument was true i.e. 4x. However gun homicides are 21x higher in the US than Australia.... but surely that isn't because there are more guns in the US

In 2014 Australia had 0.16 gun homicides per 100,000... the US had 3.43 gun homicides per 100,000.... that's 21x higher
In 2014 Australia had 0.93 gun deaths per 100,000... the US had 10.54 gun deaths per 100,000.... that's 11x higher

In the US about 70% of murders are committed with a gun..... in Australia its about 15%... probably not a coincidence their murder rate AND gun murder rate are higher in the US is it?

Re your gang analogy... if i really wanted to rob someone and knew they had a gun i'd shoot them before they had a chance to use it. If gun access here was easy (handguns in particular) then many crims would certainly get one... not sure how that helps the majority of law abiding Australian citizens who don't want/need a gun on the off chance they "had to" blow a bad guy away because they were stealing their wallet??

???????
The significance of comparing first-world countries is?
It's a complete non-sequitur, unless you believe first-world f lives are more important than first-world ones. Oh, and please get back to us when you find that higher figure for the US you suspect.
I myself have seen a figure of just over 5/ 100, 000, which would make the US in the top half of the safest countries in the world (just barely). The figure of about 5 I have seen places the US at about the level of Argentina, which incidentally is a country with strict gun control but at least allows self-defence as a reason, unlike here.
That is of course before minusing gang violence and a few bad areas of the country.
You wrote
In the US about 70% of murders are committed with a gun..... in Australia its about 15%... probably not a coincidence their murder rate AND gun murder rate are higher in the US is it?[i][b]
No, it probably isn't. You are making the same old mistake of considering gun violence in isolation from other violence.
Of course it won't be a coincidence that gun violence is higher than here if other forma of violence are also higher than here, though the difference with Australia is negligible over most of the US.

Re your gang analogy... if i really wanted to rob someone and knew they had a gun i'd shoot them before they had a chance to use it. If gun access here was easy (handguns in particular) then many crims would certainly get one... not sure how that helps the majority of law abiding Australian citizens who don't want/need a gun on the off chance they "had to" blow a bad guy away because they were stealing their wallet??[/quote]

Glad to know you speak for the majority. Glad to know you know it, too, obviously.
You probably should be allowed a gun for self-defence if that's what your attitude is going to be-shoot first, ask questions later. Maybe you ARE someone who shouldn't be allowed anywhere near a gun lol.
As I've mentioned, carry in the US has apparently resulted in a reduction in violent crime and it certainly has it?

[Heckler303]

This entire thread in a brass nutshell:




Fudds gonna fudd.

[wanneroo]

As an American, I enjoyed reading this thread. Some Australians get it, some are now institutionalized into big government knows best.

A couple of things:

"The United States has a crime problem". For most of the US, it does not. The only crime problem mostly exists in areas dominated by the Democratic Party and their policies of driving out business, bringing in welfare and having strict anti gun laws that encourage criminals. Most of the US statistically is some of the safest in the world. When I was a kid 20-30 years ago, crime rates were much higher and I myself remember crime being more common, but the right to conceal or open carry was not common. Now almost every state has some provision for carry of weapons for self defense. Self defense laws have also been strengthened. Lastly criminal penalties are stronger and bad guys that can't behave get put into prison permanently. In my opinion being on the ground here in the USA living in many states over the years, the above has been the biggest change to crime and it's associated behavior. Criminals no longer have free reign to constantly terrorize the populace and they either quickly expire from lead poisoning or being put in prison.

"The United States has a lot of gun violence". For one thing, homicide rates have dropped like a stone for over 20 years. That said dig into the statistics. Most gun violence is criminal on criminal and/or linked to the drug trade and is confined to certain leftist "gun free" hell holes like the south side of Chicago and Detroit. If you are not involved in the criminal world or in drugs, you have very little to worry about. In terms of firearms used, rifles are used in a tiny percentage of all homicides. When I lived and worked with Australians for 7 years last decade, many were conditioned by our TV and movies to believe the US was this wildly violent place and in reality they came to find it was not. Hollywood is Hollywood, not real life folks.

"The United States needs background checks". Well uhhhhh, we have them. Who told anyone here we did not? Look up a ATF Form 4473, easily found in PDF format online. In addition several states and cities also have other burdensome paperwork laws. Anytime you buy a firearm from a dealer you must fill out a Form 4473 and get a background check. Yes in several states there are provisions for people to sell firearms person to person without a background check as long as both parties are not prohibited. In my state we can sell rifles to one another or give them as a gift. Which is as it should be. Personally I am not a big believer in this background check nonsense. The federal government only prosecutes a small percentage of felons trying to buy firearms illegally and in addition, felons will just hire straw purchasers anyways.

"The United States needs gun registration". Uh, what exactly does that fix? Nothing. It is a tool of tyrants used to confiscate your guns. No thank you. I hold the opinion the government works for us, we do not work for and submit to it as subjects. We are not subjects of the Queen.

"Firearms access is easy in the US". As it should be. We have the God given right to keep and bear arms. Anyone confused with the concept of inalienable rights, please read up on them. In terms of criminal access to firearms, thanks to Australia's laws, criminal gangs now have another lucrative source of income and that is the illegal trade in firearms and any criminal in Australia can readily obtain a firearm with no problem.

"The United States must have gun safes". We have a lot of them and a lot of big ones. I had to triple reinforce the floor under my armory room in my house so all the thousands of pounds of safes, ammo and guns did not crash through the floor.

[wanneroo]

Concerning? Why would that be?

Seriously, even the shooting community here has become normalised to this kind of fear.

We go to the USA a lot, this year 6+ weeks total. and average that for the last 10. I never feel uneasy except in Dallas, New Orleans, New York and LA when I am not carrying or someone I am with is not carrying, then yeah......but the rest of the USA is awesome and I always feel safe around firearms and ranges. The people you meet are awesome and not to be frightened of.

Maybe I have misunderstood your post but really the American people have a crime problem not a firearm problem. It is us here in Australia that have a firearm problem......we just do not have a 2nd amendment or similar.

People are simply watching too much TV. Even our wild west 1800's heritage has been hijacked by Hollywood and made places like Dodge City and Tombstone into violent places of endless gun battles in saloons, when in reality these things were rarities.

There are bad neighborhoods in all the cities above, but there are places in any large city in the world, regular tourists and business people have no business going into.

[wanneroo]

I disagree.

The American constitution gives citizens the rights to bear arms. America has been what it has been because of it's entire foundation. America is worse off with the attempts to move away from it's foundation over the last half century or so...

My personal opinion (and it's just that), is that the optimum solution is somewhere between America and Australia. Allow anyone who is fit and proper to have the right to firearms. No genuine reason required, but deny criminals. And I suspect that many Americans would like to see criminals denied legal access to firearms, but I know there are big problems with that ideology.

One of the issues is that we know politicians won't stop there. They take a small piece, and then they want more, until they want total control.

Another problem is the ability for the government to redefine who is a 'fit and proper' person. So easily what was originally called freedom of speech and someone's own opinion which was fine for centuries is now being redefined as 'hate speech'. Someone could be considered a fine citizen a couple of decade ago, and by remaining the same person with the same opinions they've always had, they are bigots now.

How easy then would it be for the government to also redefine people who don't agree with their ideologies as no longer fit and proper as well.

We've seen it happen here in Australia (first with the registry and the promise that it wouldn't be used to take guns off us - and then the confiscation), and now still not satisfied the push for more, more MORE! And then they change the definition of genuine reason to remove one of the most genuine (self defense)....

The reason I believe that the NRA and American's aren't budging an inch is because they know if they do - the government will take that inch, then take a mile and still not be satisfied. Australia is living proof of that. Even if the NRA wanted to give the government just a little and secretly agreed with some of the points being made, they know that it would be disastrous in the long run.

The last thing America needs is to follow in Australia's footsteps - especially with the amount of firearms already in circulation. This would just leave the innocent defenseless, and the criminals with the majority of the firearms.

Regressive leftists always talk of "compromise" and "common sense solutions". What that means is you give them half of what they want and then they immediately come back and ask for half of that and so on until they have everything. And that is why me and organizations like the NRA refuse to budge, because like past history has shown these tyrants will immediately come back for more. You Australians should be wise to that yourselves as here we are 20 years after the gun confiscation and the anti gun crowd bays for even more confiscation and control. These leftist tyrants never stop.

Also I do not know where these meme started that criminals in the USA have legal access to firearms. They do not. Let me repeat, THEY DO NOT HAVE LEGAL ACCESS TO FIREARMS. Being convicted of a crime with a 2 year penalty, misdemeanor or felony, is a federal prohibitor to firearms ownership for LIFE, even if you received a lower sentence. In my local area, a man who committed a crime in 1961 was charged recently with trying to buy a gun and faces 5 years in prison as an example. In addition, only one night in involuntary mental confinement is a federal prohibitor for LIFE. Again as an example a woman here locally that did one night as a teenager in mental confinement in 1981, she too tried to buy a gun and also now faces 5 years in prison.

The reality is penalties for criminals accessing firearms here in the USA can be very severe and crippling, that is if charged and convicted.

Any Australian that thinks Americans support criminals buying guns or that criminals can legally do so has been watching too much TV.

[wanneroo]

Re your gang analogy... if i really wanted to rob someone and knew they had a gun i'd shoot them before they had a chance to use it. If gun access here was easy (handguns in particular) then many crims would certainly get one... not sure how that helps the majority of law abiding Australian citizens who don't want/need a gun on the off chance they "had to" blow a bad guy away because they were stealing their wallet??

If you were a gang member that did that how long do you think you'd survive? Most gang bangers are terrible shots and us that carry tend to be firearms enthusiasts and can probably shoot better.

I carry full size handguns like my Glock 17 on my person all the time and no bystander would have any idea I am carrying. We have a whole developed industry here in the USA catering to the carry market with holsters and carry systems.

[doc]

If you were a gang member that did that how long do you think you'd survive? Most gang bangers are terrible shots and us that carry tend to be firearms enthusiasts and can probably shoot better.

I carry full size handguns like my Glock 17 on my person all the time and no bystander would have any idea I am carrying. We have a whole developed industry here in the USA catering to the carry market with holsters and carry systems.

If what wade said was true, we'd be seeing this happen everywhere in the USA. Yet the opposite is occurring.

Most criminals are whimps. They're all though when they have the upper advantage, but tend to steer clear of others who may have the capability to fight back. There's a reason why most massacres in the USA have occurred in gun free zones.

But the constant 'what if someone bad' thinking is nothing new. We've got people in Australia dead against women having pepper spray just because of the 'what if' one of these women decide to spray someone innocent, and they can't see the 'what if' this saves someone's life, or that many criminals already possess these things.

[Gwion]

As an Australian, I am not 'institutionalised into thinking big government knows best'. I simply appreciate the cultural differences between Australia and the US and am sick to death of the cultural hi-jacking of our country by American culture. We have not needed American style gun laws historically and I don't see we need them going forward. We may need to find our own workable balance but the US is NOT an example I admire or aspire to.

I won't tell you the US should be more Australian and I would appreciate the same in return,

[wanneroo]

As an Australian, I am not 'institutionalised into thinking big government knows best'. I simply appreciate the cultural differences between Australia and the US and am sick to death of the cultural hi-jacking of our country by American culture. We have not needed American style gun laws historically and I don't see we need them going forward. We may need to find our own workable balance but the US is NOT an example I admire or aspire to.

I won't tell you the US should be more Australian and I would appreciate the same in return,

You might not feel institutionalized into big government but many Australians are, especially in the realm of firearms and legislating the size, shape, function, use of them as well as the bureaucratic hoops to jump through for licences and storage.

You almost might be sick to death of "cultural hijacking" but since people are individuals we must leave it to them to decide what culture they choose to imbibe in, as long as it causes no harm to others. Quite frankly here in the USA we are very welcoming to Australians and their culture and sport and many Australians have sought their fame and fortune here with no barriers to their entry or success. I know first hand it doesn't go the other way, but so it goes.

[Gwion]

Quite frankly here in the USA we are very welcoming to Australians and their culture and sport and many Australians have sought their fame and fortune here with no barriers to their entry or success. I know first hand it doesn't go the other way, but so it goes.

Sophistry and tripe!

There are a HEAP of Americans that make their homes and careers in Australia. They are accepted as any other and probably have more opportunity in Australia than migrants from many other areas. What is not accepted is assertion of US culture being superior and supreme. This may be where you ran aground, if you claim to have personal experience to the contrary.

If Australian culture and sport is so well acknowledged and accepted, why is it that the vast majority of Americans wouldn't know the difference between Australia & Austria?

As for choosing a culture to follow, we have an entire generation that has had no choice because of the cultural saturation of US content in our media and entertainment.

[David Brown]

wanneroo

Great posts

I note you picked on my crime problem. That seems to be, and I should be more specific related to certain demographics in the few areas we all know about.

I am with you buddy I would move there in a heartbeat given the right circumstances. And might just do it yet anyway.

Be back again in a few weeks......There are a couple of thousand rounds waiting for us

[happyhunter]

As an Australian, I am not 'institutionalised into thinking big government knows best'. I simply appreciate the cultural differences between Australia and the US and am sick to death of the cultural hi-jacking of our country by American culture. We have not needed American style gun laws historically and I don't see we need them going forward. We may need to find our own workable balance but the US is NOT an example I admire or aspire to.

I won't tell you the US should be more Australian and I would appreciate the same in return,

You might not feel institutionalized into big government but many Australians are, especially in the realm of firearms and legislating the size, shape, function, use of them as well as the bureaucratic hoops to jump through for licences and storage.

You almost might be sick to death of "cultural hijacking" but since people are individuals we must leave it to them to decide what culture they choose to imbibe in, as long as it causes no harm to others. Quite frankly here in the USA we are very welcoming to Australians and their culture and sport and many Australians have sought their fame and fortune here with no barriers to their entry or success. I know first hand it doesn't go the other way, but so it goes.

You sir are correct in your assertions. Having lived half my life out of Australia it's an unfortunate admissions that Australians are far more institutionalized than they would like to believe.

[Gwion]

Not as institutionalised as Americans, who are brain washed from birth to believe their country and culture are the pinnacle of human existence when in fact their culture is the biggest contradiction to their own proclaimed and institutionalised doctrines.

[happyhunter]

You can't dismiss the U.S.A's achievements. They dominate more sports I could ever list, then there is the massive military power, pioneering space travel, leaders in cyber technology.. etc.. and so forth. Your in car navigator uses their satellite network, your posts are probably routed through the internet backbone that they own. You computer probably uses an operating system developed by an American company (mine doesn't.) Your keyboard layout is probably 'U.S'. The more you think about the more you realise the USA has a finger in a lot of cool stuff as well as not so cool.

Like it or not, their accomplishments cannot be ignored.

I'd say from living there for a few years Americans are more rebellious than Australians. If you think it's the other way around spend a few years living in Arizona.

[Heckler303]

Vegemite is enough of a reason to state that Australia's culture is far different.

[wanneroo]

Quite frankly here in the USA we are very welcoming to Australians and their culture and sport and many Australians have sought their fame and fortune here with no barriers to their entry or success. I know first hand it doesn't go the other way, but so it goes.

Sophistry and tripe!

There are a HEAP of Americans that make their homes and careers in Australia. They are accepted as any other and probably have more opportunity in Australia than migrants from many other areas. What is not accepted is assertion of US culture being superior and supreme. This may be where you ran aground, if you claim to have personal experience to the contrary.

If Australian culture and sport is so well acknowledged and accepted, why is it that the vast majority of Americans wouldn't know the difference between Australia & Austria?

As for choosing a culture to follow, we have an entire generation that has had no choice because of the cultural saturation of US content in our media and entertainment.

Actually many people down under have been very helpful over the years but I did get some push back due to being an American and people having mental hang ups and hysteria from watching too much media and entertainment. In the end I mostly shifted my time and money from Australia to New Zealand for the past 10 years and while I still get an odd bit of flack there, the Kiwis have been great.

But enough about that, what exactly do you not like about American gun laws or guns?

[wanneroo]

wanneroo

Great posts

I note you picked on my crime problem. That seems to be, and I should be more specific related to certain demographics in the few areas we all know about.

I am with you buddy I would move there in a heartbeat given the right circumstances. And might just do it yet anyway.

Be back again in a few weeks......There are a couple of thousand rounds waiting for us

Have fun and enjoy yourself. Make sure you shoot a few machine guns while here.

[wanneroo]

Not as institutionalised as Americans, who are brain washed from birth to believe their country and culture are the pinnacle of human existence when in fact their culture is the biggest contradiction to their own proclaimed and institutionalised doctrines.

Yes we do have some cultural rot from being unmoored from our constitutional principles, but our founding fathers had some unique ideas about freedom and it's lead to the greatest era of technological development the earth has ever seen. So yes it is the pinnacle of human existence and that is what happens when you have freedom and liberty and the individual is allowed to be the best they can be. The facts can't be denied.

Sounds like you need to spend some time with more Americans and spend some time in the USA and turn the Foxtel off.

[Gwion]

It's not the laws or guns, per se. It is the hero, shoot 'em out, tough with a gun in your hand culture that I object to. You may well claim that is all a product of Hollywood and not representative of true American culture but the fact you have to face is that THAT IS the culture being exported and creating a wannabe gangsta culture amid the youth in many countries.

You may also claim that the violent American culture is restricted to certain regions and subcultures; well, that can be said of most countries including Australia. That doesn't change the sum total fact that you suffer from a much higher rate of violent crime and homicide than we do.

So, what I object to is not your laws IN your country, or individual Americans who, taken as individuals, I have known some decent people; I object to anyone saying we in Australia should be more like America. We need our own solution for our own situation and there are, to my mind, much better examples for us to take into account.

[Gwion]

What I also object to is the loud mouth yank who comes over here, bellowing about how good America is and how WE NEED to be more like them. I have also met a HEAP of those!

[Gwion]

Not as institutionalised as Americans, who are brain washed from birth to believe their country and culture are the pinnacle of human existence when in fact their culture is the biggest contradiction to their own proclaimed and institutionalised doctrines.

Yes we do have some cultural rot from being unmoored from our constitutional principles, but our founding fathers had some unique ideas about freedom and it's lead to the greatest era of technological development the earth has ever seen. So yes it is the pinnacle of human existence and that is what happens when you have freedom and liberty and the individual is allowed to be the best they can be. The facts can't be denied.

Sounds like you need to spend some time with more Americans and spend some time in the USA and turn the Foxtel off.

Hog wash and institutionalised propaganda to a word!

Most of your 'technological brilliance' is stolen or imported from other countries and is actually the intellectual product of NON American cultural achievement. I won't go into detail but that is all well documented fact. It has nothing to do with your culture that favours money over intellect. Sure, you can be the best you can be... If mummy & daddy can afford you to be, otherwise you will be fodder for the corporate giants and have to work 3 jobs just to pay your rent!

[wade06]

What I also object to is the loud mouth yank who comes over here, bellowing about how good America is and how WE NEED to be more like them. I have also met a HEAP of those!