Firearm homicide USA -vs- Australia.

[wanneroo]

It's not the laws or guns, per se. It is the hero, shoot 'em out, tough with a gun in your hand culture that I object to.

I knew I would ferret it out before long. You've been watching too much TV. That's not the way it is here. Hollywood is Hollywood. Even most of the gun stuff in films is false and inaccurate.

For 7 years I worked for a company here in the USA and to meet our seasonal needs we took in Australians and Kiwis on various visas like the J-1 and H-2B visa for temporary work. We hired about 100-150 a year, mostly university aged people. Part of my job was to mentor and train them for their job being senior staff and all. I'd say most of these folks had never been to the USA and their view of it was from TV and film. Upon arrival in LA, many were expecting gun battles to break out around them and some were scared crapless. Even once we got them to Colorado, many for a while were leery of Americans and were thinking they would get blown away anytime. Most after a while realized America is very safe in most places and Americans are pretty cool and America is not Hollyweird. As it was it turned out to be the Australians that got into bar fights in town, on two instances even assaulting Vail, Colorado police officers, two other Australians(not our employees) even robbed a local bank and one winter we accumulated over $200,000 in property damages to our employee housing thanks to Australians being drunk and breaking stuff.

So I found it ironic many Australians consider Americans to be the brutish violent barbarians, yet it was the Australians in our cozy ski town committing crime and violent assaults like had never been seen in town before.

That said it was a successful program for us overall and we had some great employees, many I am still friends with 10-15 years later.

Ultimately you've got to get past that hang up and recognize America is not Hollywood. Hollywood is fiction, fantasy and not real life. Sounds like you need to travel around the USA some before coming to such a definite conclusion. And if people don't like Hollywood, turn it off. I do. I don't even have cable or sat TV and rarely go to a theater. I pretty much stick to stuff like Youtube gun channels or V8 Supercars.

[<<Genesis93>>]

Gwion needs a hug

Seriously.... I've been wanting to respond to your rambling mostly nonsense but you keep out-doing yourself...

You've been spending too much time away from the forge - so go back to the shed and do something more creative and worthwhile with your time before you further blemish your name....

[Gwion]

........You may well claim that is all a product of Hollywood and not representative of true American culture but the fact you have to face is that THAT IS the culture being exported and creating a wannabe gangsta culture amid the youth in many countries.

And here ^^^ is the part you chose to ignore.

I agree, Australians can be oafish and violent.
That doesn't change the fact that your nation wide, per capita, incidence of violence is higher than ours.

I am not telling you how you should be or what your laws should entail. I have as much right to do that as you do to tell us how ours should be.....

Anyway. I'm going fishing.

[wade06]

Gwion,
Every country has its fair share of scum... the US "scum percentage" is just a fair bit higher than the rest of the western world.
On average I'd take the Australian society any day over the US society.
Good luck fishing

[Jandamurra]

Go the yanks!
Keep coming here.
I and a few other Aussies need your support!
The thing about excessive US cultural influence goes for the left as well as the right, BTW I'd like a dollar for every Aussie dimwit who speaks in reverential tones about "President Obama." Yes, I know he is indeed President of the US, but I'm talking about the tone in which it is said.
Obviously no cultural cringe toward the wonderful US liberal democrats, lol.
Until 1989 Tasmania had full automatic long arms for sale without registration, and you could even order them from interstate, regardless of the laws of that state. Oz was actually freer than the US as far as full auto was concerned, since full auto's over there were priced out of the market for most people by a 1934 federal law that introduced heavy licensing fees.
In tantalisingly recent times we had a "gun culture" fairly similar to that of the US.
So who are the cultural imperialists, pro-gun Americans with something to say about our gun laws or anti-gun Americans wanting to do the same?

[wade06]

Re this US election... Clinton is a terrible nomination but somehow she looks ok compared to the other clown.

[MR. WINCHESTER]

Reportedly, (according to the U.S. F.B.I)
There were 374 ( or thereabouts) 'mass murders' in the States, during 2015.

Apparently, according to the F.B.I ... a 'mass murder' involves the killing of 4 or more victims ...

I'm way more relaxed with Aussie society, compared to the neurotic f**cked up rubbish that exists 'over there'.

[wanneroo]

Reportedly, (according to the U.S. F.B.I)
There were 374 ( or thereabouts) 'mass murders' in the States, during 2015.

Apparently, according to the F.B.I ... a 'mass murder' involves the killing of 4 or more victims ...

I'm way more relaxed with Aussie society, compared to the neurotic f**cked up rubbish that exists 'over there'.

Incorrect, the actual number is around 22 using the FBI data and definitions of a "mass killing", not 374. The 300+ number is a bunch of phony baloney peddled by anti gun wackos. It's unfortunate that people are so easily duped by such propaganda but it shows the power of media in shaping people's minds.

When you compare the US rate of "mass killings" with other western nations, it's about the same or less.

It's the same with the phony "33,000 killed by gun violence in the USA" stat hillary clinton and others peddle. Nice sound bite but inaccurate and misleading. 2/3rds are suicides(the US has a lower rate of suicide than many countries btw), much of the rest is gang and criminal on criminal. Completely random violence is a small part of it.

[MR. WINCHESTER]

Reportedly, (according to the U.S. F.B.I)
There were 374 ( or thereabouts) 'mass murders' in the States, during 2015.

Apparently, according to the F.B.I ... a 'mass murder' involves the killing of 4 or more victims ...

I'm way more relaxed with Aussie society, compared to the neurotic f**cked up rubbish that exists 'over there'.

Incorrect, the actual number is around 22 using the FBI data and definitions of a "mass killing", not 374. The 300+ number is a bunch of phony baloney peddled by anti gun wackos. It's unfortunate that people are so easily duped by such propaganda but it shows the power of media in shaping people's minds.

When you compare the US rate of "mass killings" with other western nations, it's about the same or less.

Your '22' is wildly different to the 374 I was recently given ....
What is the criteria of a 'mass killing', as used in your assertion ?

And, another little tidbit I recently heard from a PRO firearms Aussie citizen ..
"Australian has been spared ANY 'mass murder' since the '96 crackdown"
Which, if anywhere near correct .... has your assertion regarding the U.S. being on par with other Western societies, concerning the
frequency of 'mass murders' looking more than ludicrous, even when judged against your ( seemingly ? ) 'generous' figures.
Perhaps you could also debate / dispute that ?

I don't have any barrow to push on this topic; just like the facts to resemble the truth.

[wanneroo]

Reportedly, (according to the U.S. F.B.I)
There were 374 ( or thereabouts) 'mass murders' in the States, during 2015.

Apparently, according to the F.B.I ... a 'mass murder' involves the killing of 4 or more victims ...

I'm way more relaxed with Aussie society, compared to the neurotic f**cked up rubbish that exists 'over there'.

Incorrect, the actual number is around 22 using the FBI data and definitions of a "mass killing", not 374. The 300+ number is a bunch of phony baloney peddled by anti gun wackos. It's unfortunate that people are so easily duped by such propaganda but it shows the power of media in shaping people's minds.

When you compare the US rate of "mass killings" with other western nations, it's about the same or less.

Your '22' is wildly different to the 374 I was recently given ....
What is the criteria of a 'mass killing', as used in your assertion ?

And, another little tidbit I recently heard from a PRO firearms Aussie citizen ..
"Australian has been spared ANY 'mass murder' since the '96 crackdown"
Which, if anywhere near correct .... has your assertion regarding the U.S. being on par with other Western societies, concerning the
frequency of 'mass murders' looking more than ludicrous, even when judged against your ( seemingly ? ) 'generous' figures.
Perhaps you could also debate / dispute that ?

I don't have any barrow to push on this topic; just like the facts to resemble the truth.

I think the truth is very important.

I used the same criteria you did, a killing of 4 or more deaths.

Yes if you examine real mass killing rates, the US is on par or lower than many other countries. I would read up on John Lott's research in which he details exact incidents and numbers of mass killings.

[doc]

And, another little tidbit I recently heard from a PRO firearms Aussie citizen ..
"Australian has been spared ANY 'mass murder' since the '96 crackdown"

That's inaccurate. At least one I'm aware of involves the Hunt family where 5 were killed in a murder suicide.

[<<Genesis93>>]

Yes.
There have been numerous mass murders, mass killing, mass death, since 96, some involved firearms, most not...

ANYONE who parrots the 'no mass killing' since 96 whether or not involving a firearm needs a good slap....

As far as I'm concerned, any death, whether single or multiple, that is NOT from natural causes, and not accidental MUST be counted together. You can't discount the multiple murders, such as the backpacker fire, the nursing home fire, the Cairns multiple stabbing murder, and all the single murders that FAR outnumber the mass murders.....

Although wiki is not the ultimate reference, and not always correct and unbiased, a look at the Massacres in Aus page;

21 Mass murders over the 20th century up to PAM 1996, (over 96 years)
11 Mass murders since (20 years...)

So yeh nah.... we are not 'safer' since being 'saved' by little johnnie... apparently

and interestingly (note this is wiki...) the average since PAM is 7 deaths per incident , while the average over the 20th century up to PAM... was..... 6.5.(excluding estimated indigenous mass incidents) and the Average in the 25 years preceding PAM was 6.5

Read into that what you may.


{{I know I have a more precise study/paper dealing with multiple murders in Aus... can't seem to find it though....}}

[happyhunter]

So I found it ironic many Australians consider Americans to be the brutish violent barbarians, yet it was the Australians in our cozy ski town committing crime and violent assaults like had never been seen in town before.

The 4 years I lived in Arizona I found the locals to be some of the friendliest and polite people I have ever met. It's a shame people for opinions based on what they see on television.

[Jandamurra]

[b][b][/b][/b]Gwion wrote:
It's not the laws or guns, per se. It is the hero, shoot 'em out, tough with a gun in your hand culture that I object to. You may well claim that is all a product of Hollywood and not representative of true American culture but the fact you have to face is that THAT IS the culture being exported and creating a wannabe gangsta culture amid the youth in many countries.

You may also claim that the violent American culture is restricted to certain regions and subcultures; well, that can be said of most countries including Australia. That doesn't change the sum total fact that you suffer from a much higher rate of violent crime and homicide than we do.
It's not merely a claim, it's a fact demonstrated amply-here for example:
http://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/171576/ ... greenfield .
If you have information that clearly refutes the claim that violence in the US is mostly confined to certain high-crime, high gun control areas, please share it with us. Don't be shy.
In this country, the anti's like to claim that any violence, especially gun violence, is largely confined to the underworld so it doesn't really impinge on everyone else.
Funny how they can turn right around and completely ignore the fact that whether or not it applies to Australia, it certainly applies to the US-unless, Gwion, you have information to the contrary. Note well, it's not this

So, what I object to is not your laws IN your country, or individual Americans who, taken as individuals, I have known some decent people; I object to anyone saying we in Australia should be more like America. We need our own solution for our own situation and there are, to my mind, much better examples for us to take into account.

This is a bit meaningless. Surely when examining our laws on guns and weapons, it is only natural to look at laws elsewhere.
Many countries beside the US allow weapons for self-defence, though usually on a much more controlled basis than the US. In Germany. France and many other European countries, pepper spray is available with an easy-to-get license or none at all. In Austria it's possible to buy a shotgun without a license.
Personally I'd go further than the US, but one doesn't have to search many countries to see just how insanely harsh our laws on weapons and self-defence really are.
Gwion, am I to take it that your idea of laws that suit Australia will never involve any loosening of these laws?

[MR. WINCHESTER]

Hey Janda ...

Are you a card carrying NRA member ?

( Will try to create time, to address your assertions )

[GLS_1956]

In the fall of 2015 a young woman intentionally ran her Kia sedan into a crowd of sports fans celebrating the local college's Homecoming, killing four persons and injuring dozens more. Yes she has been charged with MURDER.

Now get this the incident was carried on many newspapers and a several television stations initially as a shooting, even though once into the story they all made it clear the woman was driving a car and ran over the people she murdered.

I've been told that as of right now, the trial has not yet been held, the Justice Department has refused to list these deaths as homicides. Instead claiming they are automobile deaths like accidents.

[MR. WINCHESTER]

[MR. WINCHESTER]

Another example of why / how the U.S. is totally f***ed.
There are so many contrasting jurisdictions ... 50 something States, 50 something laws / rules / issues to come to grips with !

( as compared to, an homologous Aust ! )

Yanks ... don't try and peddle your bulls**t paranoid views to Aussie shooters, without fear of copping some sort of call for explanation.
'We' are ... In general, far more relaxed concerning views relating to conspiracy / manipulation by 'big brother' ....

Unless, you listen to 'Genesis' ! Lol

[<<Genesis93>>]

Mr Winchester is sounding like Mr Stoopid who forgot his meds...

[MR. WINCHESTER]

Mr Winchester is sounding like Mr Stoopid who forgot his meds...

And you sound ( always have ) like a narrow minded fool ...

[<<Genesis93>>]

Mr Winchester is sounding like Mr Stoopid who forgot his meds...

And you sound ( always have ) like a narrow minded fool ...

Guilty as charged

Now you've said your piece so << censored for the children >> off

[MR. WINCHESTER]

You're hilarious ...

Was expecting / wanting more.

[Gwion]

image.jpg (13.63 KiB) Viewed 7614 times

[wanneroo]

Another example of why / how the U.S. is totally f***ed.
There are so many contrasting jurisdictions ... 50 something States, 50 something laws / rules / issues to come to grips with !

( as compared to, an homologous Aust ! )

Yanks ... don't try and peddle your bulls**t paranoid views to Aussie shooters, without fear of copping some sort of call for explanation.
'We' are ... In general, far more relaxed concerning views relating to conspiracy / manipulation by 'big brother' ....

Unless, you listen to 'Genesis' ! Lol

Who sounds paranoid about hearing another point of view^^^^^.

I think yourself and other Australians need to separate out the hollywood view of the US and the anti gun agenda peddled by your media from the actual reality here in the USA.

Yes it is important to note that we do have 16 times the population and we are the "United States" of America, so yes there are 50 different states and states rights are important. The power of states rights has been eroded over time but it is designed to keep the federal government in check and also if one state gets too oppressive you've got competitive options elsewhere.

[Gwion]

Wanneroo, I think what yourself and others Americans need to realise is that although 'Hollywood' may not portray what you consider an accurate view of your life in the US; it is the 'Hollywood' version of US culture that is being exported to our youth and around the world. Like it or not, this is the fact and it is what many of us object to.

Also, it doesn't matter how you try to mitigate statistics by quoting population density or by isolating specific trouble areas , the numbers show that, per capita, the US has a much higher rate of violence than Australia.

Your reference to the importance of the rights of individual states within your Union is also relevant. We (Australia) are not (yet) a state within your Union. We are a sovereign nation and proudly so. Many of us are open to discussion on how our country can improve its laws and governance but draw the line and get 'our back up' when people from other countries attempt to impose their own laws and culture onto ours. I'm afraid that many of us have experienced the 'you'd be better off it you were more like us' attitude from Americans far too often.

[<<Genesis93>>]

....... We (Australia) are not (yet) a state within your Union.

Interesting thought... we'd much sooner become a 'state' within Indonesia or China...under the gun, given that our own defence force has a strength of....what 20, 30 thousand combat ready soldiers if even that. Of course we have ANZUS and 2 thousand US soldiers in Aus (are they still here??)...

......We are a sovereign nation and proudly so. Many of us are open to discussion on how our country can improve its laws and governance but draw the line and get 'our back up' when people from other countries attempt to impose their own laws and culture onto ours. I'm afraid that many of us have experienced the 'you'd be better off it you were more like us' attitude from Americans far too often.

You're hilarious... something I've been accused of
You think 'we' are sovereign? and thats why laws go to the GG to be signed on behalf of 'The Sovereign' AKA Lizie.
'We' have zero authority other than deciding whether we get out of bed, even that choice we dont really have..

Even our democratic system is absolutely corrupted where influence is totally within the 2 main parties, 3 at times and as we've witnessed recently but suspected for so long - we have the best pollies money can buy, especially if the dollars are converted from Yuan. What a disgrace.

[Gwion]

alfoil.png (76.9 KiB) Viewed 7596 times

[wanneroo]

Australia sovereign? You guys still swear allegiance to the queen and you have a representative from a foreign land and queen sitting in Canberra and a foreign flag on your flag. Seems a bit strange to lecture Americans considering the current situation. I don't mean to pick but let's call it for what it is.

Fact is in the USA, 3 times as many people die in falls as they do in firearms homicides. Since we starting passing self defense and carry laws about 30 years ago our violent crime rate has more than halved and would be even lower if the anti gun areas had different laws.

In the end people can play footsie with statistics and do a dance with it, but to me the ability to defend your own life, your family, your neighbors and community is a basic, fundamental human right regardless of statistics. People can say so many people died here, so many died there, blah blah blah, but whether I am in Australia or the USA or anywhere else, I feel I should be able to deny other people the taking of my life or others. Pretty simple.

[Gwion]

Crossing issues is not really a valid form of discussion.

So, your arguments are:
1/ We used to be even more violent, so we're getting better...
2/ Our levels of violence are due to us being able to stop other people being violent to us...
3/ Deflection to other causes of death being more prevalent.... Yeah... it's the same world wide but that does not in anyway reflect on the current discussion relating to levels of violence between Australia and the US.
4/ Australia isn't 'sovereign' because the Queen is our symbolic head of state....

The last one i will address. We, as a nation have the ability to, at anytime, call for a referendum to sever ties with the Commonwealth, ie: no longer have 'Queenie' as head of state. To my mind, that does make us a sovereign nation. Our future is in our own hands, we have the power to make that decision for ourselves; not in the hands of the UK or of the US..... theoretically, at least.
Fact is, the US has had more controlling influence over Australian policy, economy and culture in the last 50 years than the UK has had.

Also, the point you are being so obtuse about is that i am not lecturing you, i am saying, do not lecture us that we should be more like you.

[<<Genesis93>>]

gwion..... go make a knife.

Your knife making skills exceed your......^what ever that is, skills.