Petition to Bring castle law to Australia

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Petition to Bring castle law to Australia

Post by ALz » 02 Jul 2019, 7:46 pm

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Re: Petition to Bring castle law to Australia

Post by bigrich » 02 Jul 2019, 8:04 pm

yup , signed . criminals have all the rights, victims don't. serial serious offenders are out on bail and early parole cause of a soft c*ck system. remember the murder of jill meagher in melbourne and the career criminal out on parole who did it ? just one of thousands of cases of justice system fails . after what he did , ivan milat should've been given lethal injection , rather than taxpayers paying for him to be locked up for all these years. what does it cost to keep a crim in maximum security per year ? probably a lot more than i earn :unknown: police are overworked and crims aren't scared of jailtime or legal consequences . time for law abiding people to have the right to defend their castle :thumbsup:
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Re: Petition to Bring castle law to Australia

Post by Member-Deleted » 02 Jul 2019, 8:10 pm

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Re: Petition to Bring castle law to Australia

Post by Member-Deleted » 02 Jul 2019, 8:14 pm

Flame me if you wish but this sort of discussion just fits into the narrative that all LAFOs are at heart gun-toting rednecks who can't wait to use our firearms on other people.

Alz, your first [of 2] posts said you once lived o/s. Maybe this ideology belongs over there....
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Re: Petition to Bring castle law to Australia

Post by Member-Deleted » 02 Jul 2019, 8:18 pm

bigrich wrote:yup , signed . criminals have all the rights, victims don't. serial serious offenders are out on bail and early parole cause of a soft c*ck system. remember the murder of jill meagher in melbourne and the career criminal out on parole who did it ? just one of thousands of cases of justice system fails . after what he did , ivan milat should've been given lethal injection , rather than taxpayers paying for him to be locked up for all these years. what does it cost to keep a crim in maximum security per year ? probably a lot more than i earn :unknown: police are overworked and crims aren't scared of jailtime or legal consequences . time for law abiding people to have the right to defend their castle :thumbsup:


Bigrich, normally i luv ya work on these boards but the 2 examples you gave, of our dysfunctional justice system, would not have been changed one iota by so-called "Castle Laws".

This thread started as an anti-pisstake.
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Re: Petition to Bring castle law to Australia

Post by ALz » 02 Jul 2019, 8:19 pm

Member-Deleted wrote:Flame me if you wish but this sort of discussion just fits into the narrative that all LAFOs are at heart gun-toting rednecks who can't wait to use our firearms on other people.

Alz, your first [of 2] posts said you once lived o/s. Maybe this ideology belongs over there....

This petition started after the Sunday Night show (channel 7). I am not 100% sure, but I think it was initiated by ""ozziereviews "" on their facebook page.
I am not the one who started it but agree with the approach.
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Re: Petition to Bring castle law to Australia

Post by TassieTiger » 02 Jul 2019, 8:55 pm

Signed - heard / witnessed it too many times and yes - a recent case has promoted this...not 100% sure of the framework exactly, but I agree in principal.
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Re: Petition to Bring castle law to Australia

Post by bigrich » 02 Jul 2019, 9:26 pm

Member-Deleted wrote:Flame me if you wish but this sort of discussion just fits into the narrative that all LAFOs are at heart gun-toting rednecks who can't wait to use our firearms on other people.

Alz, your first [of 2] posts said you once lived o/s. Maybe this ideology belongs over there....



not once in my post have i referred to ,or said i support using firearms for self defense . i'm not going to cross that line on this forum . if a home invasion occurs, and you pick up a bread board to use to defend yourself against a attacker, and he's injured as a result ,YOU can be charged for a more serious crime than the home invader . never mind the fact he broke into your home and put you in a "fight or flight" situation. that is the core off my support for such a petition to see laws changed.and truth in sentencing . not shooting criminals . i wanted to watch chanel sevens story on this subject but missed it . i know someone who has been in such a situation as a victim of home invasion . and the support from the cops was good, the sentence for such a crime from the courts was pathetic . :thumbsup:

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Re: Petition to Bring castle law to Australia

Post by TassieTiger » 03 Jul 2019, 1:30 am

Farmer in Cole brook tas - 65 years old...2 ppl broke in and he caught one.
Police were called - 45 minutes away.
He held a .22 rifle to deter the home invader from running - I personally don’t know if it was directed at anyone, it matters not - police took crim away.

2 weeks pass - farmer is charged and loses firearm licence.

4 weeks later, 3 ppl break in to same farmers residence and steal various items and touch up the farmer - farmer recognises one of the people...as the person he caught 6 weeks previous.

Insane.
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Re: Petition to Bring castle law to Australia

Post by flutch » 03 Jul 2019, 2:27 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQDwn3hJjvw

zaine making no sense yet again, just a gun shop owner not wanting the police to give him a sideways look me thinks, none the less i disagree with him on most things.

if someone breaks into your home you should be allowed to assume the worst, and that being the worst possible thing that could happen ie. murder, rape, both... etc... and act accordingly, anyone who wants to have a whinge and a cry for the crims can suck it. if someone wants to avoid having their head removed by any firearm, sword, axe, trebuchet, rail gun, light saber or god knows what, they should refrain from entering other peoples dwellings. that simple.
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Re: Petition to Bring castle law to Australia

Post by trekin » 03 Jul 2019, 3:28 am

It is lawful for a person who is in peaceable possession of a
dwelling, and any person lawfully assisting him or her or
acting by his or her authority, to use force to prevent or repel
another person from unlawfully entering or remaining in the
dwelling, if the person using the force believes on reasonable
grounds—
(a) the other person is attempting to enter or to remain in
the dwelling with intent to commit an indictable offence
in the dwelling; and
(b) it is necessary to use that force.
A simple and effective Castle Doctrine, with no duty to retreat, that I support.
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Re: Petition to Bring castle law to Australia

Post by TassieTiger » 03 Jul 2019, 5:03 am

trekin wrote:It is lawful for a person who is in peaceable possession of a
dwelling, and any person lawfully assisting him or her or
acting by his or her authority, to use force to prevent or repel
another person from unlawfully entering or remaining in the
dwelling, if the person using the force believes on reasonable
grounds—
(a) the other person is attempting to enter or to remain in
the dwelling with intent to commit an indictable offence
in the dwelling; and
(b) it is necessary to use that force.
A simple and effective Castle Doctrine, with no duty to retreat, that I support.


It’s also the interpretation of this law that screws ppl over. Would it not be reasonable to believe that anyone whom has illegally entered your property/home is doing so with the intent to harm / steal or another illegal offence? Most would say yes...
But in the real world outcomes, if you touch up someone who broke into your house, you are guilty of excessive force or similar charge - until you can prove otherwise.
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Re: Petition to Bring castle law to Australia

Post by trekin » 03 Jul 2019, 6:07 am

TassieTiger wrote:
trekin wrote:It is lawful for a person who is in peaceable possession of a
dwelling, and any person lawfully assisting him or her or
acting by his or her authority, to use force to prevent or repel
another person from unlawfully entering or remaining in the
dwelling, if the person using the force believes on reasonable
grounds—
(a) the other person is attempting to enter or to remain in
the dwelling with intent to commit an indictable offence
in the dwelling; and
(b) it is necessary to use that force.
A simple and effective Castle Doctrine, with no duty to retreat, that I support.


It’s also the interpretation of this law that screws ppl over. Would it not be reasonable to believe that anyone whom has illegally entered your property/home is doing so with the intent to harm / steal or another illegal offence? Most would say yes...
But in the real world outcomes, if you touch up someone who broke into your house, you are guilty of excessive force or similar charge - until you can prove otherwise.

The above is Section 267 of the QLD Criminal Code Act.

"if the person using the force believes on reasonable
grounds—
(a) the other person is attempting to enter or to remain in
the dwelling with intent to commit an indictable offence
in the dwelling;"
If they are in my home illegaly/without my consent, then it is reasonable for me to believe that they are here to steal my firearms. Stealing firearms is an indictable offence here, to even get into the safes will require them to threaten or do actual harm to myself/others in my home, and/or do/threaten damage to property, all of which are also indictable offences up here. Breaking, using a tool (which they will need if they try to break my dwelling), or during the hours of darkness are indictable offences.
The only way the interpertation of this, or any law, screws people over is because they, the people screwed over, do not get a lawyer who willing to fight that their interpertation is the correct one.
No Castle Doctrine, anywhere in this world, gives the person the right to be judge, jury and executioner. Any/all Castle Doctrine will still require you to be answerable for your actions.
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Re: Petition to Bring castle law to Australia

Post by TassieTiger » 03 Jul 2019, 6:31 am

that does not define anything - you might “believe” they are coming to steal your firearms, they might be really thirsty and need a glass of water...and inevitably 2 x lawyers will result in an outcome. You are far from guaranteed a win regardless of a lawyer...

I’m sure you’ve heard of the stories of thieves breaking in to a premises and injuring themselves and during the property owner ? Same thing...
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Re: Petition to Bring castle law to Australia

Post by trekin » 03 Jul 2019, 7:12 am

TassieTiger wrote:that does not define anything - you might “believe” they are coming to steal your firearms, they might be really thirsty and need a glass of water...and inevitably 2 x lawyers will result in an outcome. You are far from guaranteed a win regardless of a lawyer...

I’m sure you’ve heard of the stories of thieves breaking in to a premises and injuring themselves and during the property owner ? Same thing...

"if the person using the force believes on reasonable grounds—"
There are taps outside the house, where anyone can steal my water from (trespass is a different set of laws) without needing for them to carry tools to break, or threaten/use actual violence (indictable offences) to gain entery into my home for a drink. The principle of Castle Doctrine without the duty to retreat in Section 267 has been upheld in the QLD Supreme Court.
Section 6 of the QLD Criminal Code also provides protection from civil liabilities for the victims of crime.
No Castle Doctrine, anywhere in this world, guarantees a win, but getting all your ducks lined up certainly increases your chances.
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Re: Petition to Bring castle law to Australia

Post by TassieTiger » 03 Jul 2019, 7:23 am

“ ole mate ? He doesn’t want tap water - he wants cold water from your fridge. He is unarmed and believes he knows you and knows you won’t mind him coming inside via a busted window - he may have the wrong house, but he is so thirsty he’s not worried about that...”

The “person using the force” can believe what ever he wants, can say what ever he felt (see thread re grandma who pointed gun toward someone last year and got charged - she had every right to believe she was in danger, but it did not help her)...it appears from at least many precedent cases - that the courts do not agree and take a very dim view of self defence...
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Re: Petition to Bring castle law to Australia

Post by trekin » 03 Jul 2019, 7:47 am

TassieTiger wrote:“ ole mate ? He doesn’t want tap water - he wants cold water from your fridge. He is unarmed and believes he knows you and knows you won’t mind him coming inside via a busted window - he may have the wrong house, but he is so thirsty he’s not worried about that...”

The “person using the force” can believe what ever he wants, can say what ever he felt (see thread re grandma who pointed gun toward someone last year and got charged - she had every right to believe she was in danger, but it did not help her)...it appears from at least many precedent cases - that the courts do not agree and take a very dim view of self defence...

Entering with the intent to steal (my water) is an indictable offence, Anyone with my permission/authority has a key and does not need to enter any other way, and they would fix said broken widow.
Self defence, and the defence of a dwelling (Castle Doctrine) are two seperate defences for two seperate offences, at least up here.
Grandma case was in a diffent State, with different laws.
The QLD Supreme Court has upheld Section 267 as Castle Doctrine, and has been critical of lawyers who do not advise defendants of this defence in these situations, as well as being critical of trial judges who dismiss S267 by saying that Section 271 (self defence, which is not as clear cut) has precedents over S267.
Your State's laws in regards to this are no doubt different to my State's. These are laws handled by the States (like the gun laws), and petitioning the Federal Govt will have no effect.
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Re: Petition to Bring castle law to Australia

Post by TassieTiger » 03 Jul 2019, 7:55 am

Your missing the point a little - I 100% guarantee, regardless of QLD laws vs other states laws, that one could quite easily find an insane court decision pertaining to someone who "believed" they were using self defense to protect themselves and then ended up getting F'd over it in one way or another - or very similar.
I recall from a few years back now and the "exact" facts I cant recall, but it went along the lines of - a kid broke into the Gympie hotel - got caught and was ejected. That same kid then attempted to climb the hotels roof in an attempt to gain entry and when the publican saw said kid, hurled abuse / something at the kid and he fell and broke a leg - and sued the publican. I was living in QLD at the time and recall the uproar...it's these situations Id like to see taken from "grey" and "debatable" to "clear cut" - no case to answer.
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Re: Petition to Bring castle law to Australia

Post by straightshooter » 03 Jul 2019, 8:11 am

You must surely be totally befuddled to believe that a petition coming from plebs is going to go anywhere.
It is little more than a distracting diversion for plebs often-times removing their gaze from something far more serious quietly taking place.
The only time a petition can be successful is when it provides cover for a course of legislative action already decided on by some or all of the ruling elite.
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Re: Petition to Bring castle law to Australia

Post by bigrich » 03 Jul 2019, 8:54 am

straightshooter wrote:You must surely be totally befuddled to believe that a petition coming from plebs is going to go anywhere.
It is little more than a distracting diversion for plebs often-times removing their gaze from something far more serious quietly taking place.
The only time a petition can be successful is when it provides cover for a course of legislative action already decided on by some or all of the ruling elite.


So you’re advocating doing nothing. Shut up, ya won’t make a difference. Sorry mate, but I’m old school Aussie, I’ll have my say and if enough people are talking about amendments to our laws to combat rising crime and injustice, we may well get the media onboard which may pressure government to act. There was a public protest recently in Logan city about the lack of police and resources. As taz and trekking where debating, the law is open to interpretation and grey areas, the outcome of which are often determined by how much money you have to throw at a lawyer. Some of what I’ve said maybe fanciful dreams. But the Russians revolution started as just a idea.....
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Re: Petition to Bring castle law to Australia

Post by trekin » 03 Jul 2019, 8:58 am

TassieTiger wrote:Your missing the point a little - I 100% guarantee, regardless of QLD laws vs other states laws, that one could quite easily find an insane court decision pertaining to someone who "believed" they were using self defense to protect themselves and then ended up getting F'd over it in one way or another - or very similar.
I recall from a few years back now and the "exact" facts I cant recall, but it went along the lines of - a kid broke into the Gympie hotel - got caught and was ejected. That same kid then attempted to climb the hotels roof in an attempt to gain entry and when the publican saw said kid, hurled abuse / something at the kid and he fell and broke a leg - and sued the publican. I was living in QLD at the time and recall the uproar...it's these situations Id like to see taken from "grey" and "debatable" to "clear cut" - no case to answer.

No mate, I think you misunderstand the point I am trying make.
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Re: Petition to Bring castle law to Australia

Post by bigrich » 03 Jul 2019, 9:16 am

As Lennon once wrote “all you need is love “

Or from the other Lenin “ down with the uncaring elites and the corruption of power “

Somewhere in the middle is a nice middle ground

This is shaping up to be a controversial topic, everyone is entitled to a point of view but respect for the views of others should also be considered
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Re: Petition to Bring castle law to Australia

Post by Member-Deleted » 03 Jul 2019, 9:55 am

meanwhile, back at GCA Headquarters...
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Re: Petition to Bring castle law to Australia

Post by Sergeant Hartman » 03 Jul 2019, 12:14 pm

Lol BBS

using a firearm in Australia in self defense will just get you in trouble... maybe another object could be used.

As it is the cops are too busy doing whatever they are doing to even come to your house to check on you. In Melbourne On the radio today, a house got tried to be broken into during early morning...000 was rung cops didn't show up 5hrs later crime scene van shows up. Then same house 2 weeks later a robbery took place 000 rang... yet again cops didn't show up. The crime scene van was there within 2 hours though.

Yet you see cops and even public crying jail time for people driving 5kph over the speed limits.
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Re: Petition to Bring castle law to Australia

Post by TassieTiger » 03 Jul 2019, 12:47 pm

^Who is advocating the use of fireArms for self defense? The advocation is for the right to defend ones families safety and personal property without due risk from “grey” areas being applied.

I’m with you BR, it’s easy to sit back, do nothing and cast stones and say it will never work...baaaaaa go the sheep.

This might do nothing...the next one might do nothing...but who knows, the 3rd or 4th attempt might just reference the 1st petition and as a rolling stone or what ever - it might just be enough to be referenced somewhere / sometime to stop the erosion of more civil rights...it might not be THE answer, but it IS something...
one of the reasons we are all in our current big brother baby nappy climate is because the govt can rely on enough sheep to do nothing...
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Re: Petition to Bring castle law to Australia

Post by bigrich » 03 Jul 2019, 3:51 pm

TassieTiger wrote:^Who is advocating the use of fireArms for self defense? The advocation is for the right to defend ones families safety and personal property without due risk from “grey” areas being applied.

I’m with you BR, it’s easy to sit back, do nothing and cast stones and say it will never work...baaaaaa go the sheep.

This might do nothing...the next one might do nothing...but who knows, the 3rd or 4th attempt might just reference the 1st petition and as a rolling stone or what ever - it might just be enough to be referenced somewhere / sometime to stop the erosion of more civil rights...it might not be THE answer, but it IS something...
one of the reasons we are all in our current big brother baby nappy climate is because the govt can rely on enough sheep to do nothing...


i agree taz , i dunno why BBSS keeps gravitating to firearms being used for self defense and running afoul of GCA . i'm not refering to firearms in any way, shape or form . in this PC world where crims have more rights than victims change is needed.

do you know what happens if people don't speak up ?

nothing !

better to have tried and lost than never tried at all ! ava-go-ya-mugs ! what's happened to our old school colonial spirit :unknown:

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Re: Petition to Bring castle law to Australia

Post by Member-Deleted » 03 Jul 2019, 4:58 pm

bigrich wrote:
TassieTiger wrote: i dunno why BBSS keeps gravitating to firearms being used for self defense and running afoul of GCA . :


Ummm, because this is a gun forum for the Shooting Community.... :unknown:

but you're absolutely right bigrich, you didn't refer to firearms, I made it about firearms... but then, I wouldn't get any exercise at all if i didn't jump to conclusions :drinks:
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Re: Petition to Bring castle law to Australia

Post by duncan61 » 03 Jul 2019, 5:18 pm

The granma case was a bit unique as they were lost and only wished for help and she came out the property with a shotgun.The only people who know exactly what happened were the people there.She should of remained in the property with the flyscreen or door locked and talked through the door with the shotgun out of sight but handy in case.I lived in welfare housing in a small town with my 4 children 5-11 years old and our adjacent neighbor was of Aboriginal descent.Her children used to come over and we would all kick the footy around and it was all good till a bunch of other people turned up and my fishing gear and pushbike got stolen.So I asked the Mum to not send the kids over next thing a bunch of large adult men start trouble so I had my Greener 12 bore with oo/sg next to the front door and a fake samurai sword as well.When they turned up en mass late at night it gave me a great deal of comfort knowing that as the last line of defence for my 5 yr old daughterI had the advantage.Next visitors were the police as They alleged I started it and threatened to shoot them.They seized my firearms of course and the whole situation mellowed out.I ended up trading my firearms for fishing gear at Sportsmarine.Moral of the story all you can do is hope weird stuff does not come your way.years later I did some research and I still had a firearms licence so I bought another shotgun real quick.If I had stepped out the door I would of been charged for sure with probably [Going armed in public to cause terror.]Shoving the Samurai sword through the flyscreen scared them off enough and cost $20 to replace.The police were very civil and agreed with my choice of Shotshell however had to take action as they had no surety that I would not flip out later.Bit embarrassing for them when the court finds out they left me with firearms.The main instigator is now serving a long sentence as he jumped into a young couples bedroom and held a knife to them and half the others have been killed in car crashes
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Re: Petition to Bring castle law to Australia

Post by bigrich » 03 Jul 2019, 8:17 pm

Member-Deleted wrote:
bigrich wrote:
TassieTiger wrote: i dunno why BBSS keeps gravitating to firearms being used for self defense and running afoul of GCA . :


Ummm, because this is a gun forum for the Shooting Community.... :unknown:

but you're absolutely right bigrich, you didn't refer to firearms, I made it about firearms... but then, I wouldn't get any exercise at all if i didn't jump to conclusions :drinks:


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Re: Petition to Bring castle law to Australia

Post by Strangedog » 04 Jul 2019, 10:18 pm

This isn't about firearms for self defence no, it's about the right to defend yourself. I believe we have that right, however the police and perhaps the courts seem to want to side with the criminal in cases like this. Why does this happen is the question I'd like answered. But I personally would like to be able to own a firearm for self defence. It's not a big surprise when this subject arises when talking about self defence because we are all firearm owners on this site. What amazes me is that a large proportion of people on here would disagree with me and even go as far as not wanting me to express that opinion on here because they believe it is somehow morally wrong, or it might upset someone.
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