ABC's 7.30 on Horse Racing Industry

News and events in the media and political arena relating to firearms.

Re: ABC's 7.30 on Horse Racing Industry

Post by bigfellascott » 18 Oct 2019, 9:13 pm

bladeracer wrote:
bigfellascott wrote:
bladeracer wrote:
bigfellascott wrote:Have you gone vegan?


Assuming that was for me, nope, in fact we're sending two of our boys to the abattoir on Monday. You can empathize with and respect animals and still eat them, no different to hunting them.


And how do you rationalise that?


What is there to rationalise? Humans require eating the meat of animals to survive and evolve, no way around that. So we breed animals for the purpose of feeding us, without that goal there is no reason to have evolved domestic stock animals.


So your ok with the way other farm animals are treated and processed so we can eat them, just not how dairy cows are treated?

There is lots of suffering of animals in farming so we can eat them, always has been and probably always will be. :drinks:
User avatar
bigfellascott
Lieutenant General
Lieutenant General
 
Posts: 5289
-

Re: ABC's 7.30 on Horse Racing Industry

Post by bladeracer » 18 Oct 2019, 9:17 pm

bigfellascott wrote:The reason I asked is that in his earlier post he made mention about calves being taken from their mothers. Lots of farm animals have their young taken from them at early stages of their lives, why is it justifiable to eat some and think it abhorrent that it happens to dairy cows? All farm animals end up being separated soon or later from their mothers and I'm not sure that because it happens sooner than later that it really can be justified JMHO.

And can you clarify what you mean by respect for the animals I shoot?


I feel the same about any industry that takes newborns from their mothers, although some animals don't seem to bond strongly, I have not seen such bonds in sheep or rabbits for example.

If you don't understand the difference between humanely taking the life of a mature animal that you have nurtured for that purpose, and keeping animals in a concentration-camp type of existence, breeding them purely to give them a permanent sense of grief, nothing I can say will help you see it. Cows for example can be separated from their mature calves without seèming to endure the obvious grief they do over their newborns.
Last edited by bladeracer on 18 Oct 2019, 9:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Practice Strict Gun Control - Precision Counts!
User avatar
bladeracer
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 12656
Victoria

Re: ABC's 7.30 on Horse Racing Industry

Post by bladeracer » 18 Oct 2019, 9:24 pm

bigfellascott wrote:
bladeracer wrote:
bigfellascott wrote:
bladeracer wrote:
bigfellascott wrote:Have you gone vegan?


Assuming that was for me, nope, in fact we're sending two of our boys to the abattoir on Monday. You can empathize with and respect animals and still eat them, no different to hunting them.


And how do you rationalise that?


What is there to rationalise? Humans require eating the meat of animals to survive and evolve, no way around that. So we breed animals for the purpose of feeding us, without that goal there is no reason to have evolved domestic stock animals.


So your ok with the way other farm animals are treated and processed so we can eat them, just not how dairy cows are treated?

There is lots of suffering of animals in farming so we can eat them, always has been and probably always will be. :drinks:


You seem intent on transferring your own interpretation on what I write. Animals can be and have been for millennia, humanely bred for human consumption, I have no problem with that all, it's a requirement of being a human. If you can't accept it then you become a vegan, or you find ways to delude yourself that it doesn't happen, that meat grows in supermarkets.

Eating meat though does not require cruelty. Cruelty to animals is not excused because you're going to kill them one day anyway.
Practice Strict Gun Control - Precision Counts!
User avatar
bladeracer
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 12656
Victoria

Re: ABC's 7.30 on Horse Racing Industry

Post by bladeracer » 18 Oct 2019, 9:29 pm

xDom wrote:For arguments sake.. if the horses had been humanely put down to turn into dog meat, would there be an outcry.?


I haven't seen or read the story as I doubt it's any different to the stories we've seen for decades, so I'm not seeing the relevance to dog food. If horses are bred for meat, without being forced to entertain people, then as long as they're kept humanely it wouldn't bother me. But I do understand how horse lovers would struggle with it. I couldn't eat dog for example, except under the most dire circumstances.
Practice Strict Gun Control - Precision Counts!
User avatar
bladeracer
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 12656
Victoria

Re: ABC's 7.30 on Horse Racing Industry

Post by bigfellascott » 18 Oct 2019, 9:52 pm

No doubt you've eaten plenty of animals that have had the same sort of treatment before being processed into food for you and your family to eat. (as we all have and are probably still doing) you can't get away from the fact that animals we eat have been and more than likely are still being mistreated in some way as part of their lifecycle before we consume them in their many end products. I just find your attitude to dairy cows a bit hypocritical when you have consumed other animals that have been through these sorts of processes.

You would have to be delusional if you don't think you've consumed animals that have been treated like this - we all have and no doubt are still doing so in one way or another.

Must be fun being a Meat Chicken hey.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pixGkSFBty0

Some processing of farm animals to eat
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hl6l40N59yE

Looks like humane end to a chickens life
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpUFHnJ3uhQ
User avatar
bigfellascott
Lieutenant General
Lieutenant General
 
Posts: 5289
-

Re: ABC's 7.30 on Horse Racing Industry

Post by bladeracer » 18 Oct 2019, 10:14 pm

bigfellascott wrote:No doubt you've eaten plenty of animals that have had the same sort of treatment before being processed into food for you and your family to eat. (as we all have and are probably still doing) you can't get away from the fact that animals we eat have been and more than likely are still being mistreated in some way as part of their lifecycle before we consume them in their many end products. I just find your attitude to dairy cows a bit hypocritical when you have consumed other animals that have been through these sorts of processes.

You would have to be delusional if you don't think you've consumed animals that have been treated like this - we all have and no doubt are still doing so in one way or another.

Must be fun being a Meat Chicken hey.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pixGkSFBty0

Some processing of farm animals to eat
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hl6l40N59yE

Looks like humane end to a chickens life
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpUFHnJ3uhQ


I don't recall saying I believed that though, or that I'm happy about it. But if I knew that the meat I was looking at had come from such practises then I wouldn't buy it. I don't fish because I don't believe fish are unable to experience pain or fear, the occasions that I have fished I kill the fish as soon as possible, not toss it in a bucket to suffocate as seems to be the norm.

Chicken is another industry that desperately needs cleaning up.

I am certainly aware that all aspects of animal-oriented industry (even hunting) have people that thrive on animal cruelty, that doesn't make it acceptable to me, and I'm amazed that you seem totally ambivalent to such practises.
Practice Strict Gun Control - Precision Counts!
User avatar
bladeracer
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 12656
Victoria

Re: ABC's 7.30 on Horse Racing Industry

Post by bigfellascott » 19 Oct 2019, 6:49 am

I think you are deluding yourself if you think that you haven't been responsible for pain and suffering of animals in your lifetime, we all have in one way or another (directly or indirectly) just by the mear fact you use an animal to sustain your life/lifestyle you have somewhere along the line caused harm/fear etc - you can try and justify it how you like but you'd be a hypocrite if you think you haven't and thinking just because you didn't directly intentionally cause harm/fear etc doesn't negate that fact. :drinks:

(Do you honestly think that because you killed your fish as quickly as possible after you caught it that somehow that makes you superior or a better person than those who let theirs die slowly in a bucket? You've both caused fear/harm/pain to the animal, yes yours was slightly more humane but the fact still remains you caused suffering to an animal as we all do when we kill them for our benefit (your kidding yourself if you think otherwise).

We've all benefited from the misery and suffering of animals and just because you do it in a "more Humane" way doesn't negate the fact you caused suffering to an animal (we do love to tell ourselves that but it really is a lie at the end of the day) cause no animal wanted to die to just keep us alive hey. :drinks:
User avatar
bigfellascott
Lieutenant General
Lieutenant General
 
Posts: 5289
-

Re: ABC's 7.30 on Horse Racing Industry

Post by bladeracer » 19 Oct 2019, 8:05 am

bigfellascott wrote:I think you are deluding yourself if you think that you haven't been responsible for pain and suffering of animals in your lifetime, we all have in one way or another (directly or indirectly) just by the mear fact you use an animal to sustain your life/lifestyle you have somewhere along the line caused harm/fear etc - you can try and justify it how you like but you'd be a hypocrite if you think you haven't and thinking just because you didn't directly intentionally cause harm/fear etc doesn't negate that fact. :drinks:

(Do you honestly think that because you killed your fish as quickly as possible after you caught it that somehow that makes you superior or a better person than those who let theirs die slowly in a bucket? You've both caused fear/harm/pain to the animal, yes yours was slightly more humane but the fact still remains you caused suffering to an animal as we all do when we kill them for our benefit (your kidding yourself if you think otherwise).

We've all benefited from the misery and suffering of animals and just because you do it in a "more Humane" way doesn't negate the fact you caused suffering to an animal (we do love to tell ourselves that but it really is a lie at the end of the day) cause no animal wanted to die to just keep us alive hey. :drinks:


Where do you keep getting this view that I feel superior to other people because of the things I believe in? Where did I claim I was this saint you keep confusing me with that has managed to go through life never having caused pain to an animal?

I disagree that killing any animal requires you to inflict pain or suffering upon it. I never said that killing a fish as soon as you can means it suffers no pain or fear, or that it makes you superior to the guy fishing beside you that doesn't. The fishing I did was in The Ord, taking catfish for the Aged Care Centre at the Aboriginal community I was working at, I wasn't fishing for pleasure, although the country, the local people that took me along, and the enormous crocodiles made the experience an unforgettable treasure of memories. Of course the fish experienced pain and anguish while they were on the hook, it was my duty to minimize that to the extent possible. I find it just incredible that you not only disagree with the concept, you seem completely against it on principle.

I have certainly caused harm to animals, that doesn't mean I want to delude myself into believing that is normal or desired, but it definitely reinforces my desire to avoid making the same mistakes again.

It is absolutely possible to eat animals,without causing pain and suffering, but you do have to accept that you have that choice to do so, and to act on it. Such a belief is merely human, nothing more than that. No animal cares what it wanted when it is dead, being dead is not painful or worrying...
Practice Strict Gun Control - Precision Counts!
User avatar
bladeracer
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 12656
Victoria

Re: ABC's 7.30 on Horse Racing Industry

Post by bigfellascott » 19 Oct 2019, 3:31 pm

bladeracer wrote:
bigfellascott wrote:The reason I asked is that in his earlier post he made mention about calves being taken from their mothers. Lots of farm animals have their young taken from them at early stages of their lives, why is it justifiable to eat some and think it abhorrent that it happens to dairy cows? All farm animals end up being separated soon or later from their mothers and I'm not sure that because it happens sooner than later that it really can be justified JMHO.

And can you clarify what you mean by respect for the animals I shoot?


I feel the same about any industry that takes newborns from their mothers, although some animals don't seem to bond strongly, I have not seen such bonds in sheep or rabbits for example.

If you don't understand the difference between humanely taking the life of a mature animal that you have nurtured for that purpose, and keeping animals in a concentration-camp type of existence, breeding them purely to give them a permanent sense of grief, nothing I can say will help you see it. Cows for example can be separated from their mature calves without seèming to endure the obvious grief they do over their newborns.


You've never seen a lamb suckling from it's mother or a baby rabbit doing the same? Pretty sure that bonding at it's most important point in life. :unknown:
User avatar
bigfellascott
Lieutenant General
Lieutenant General
 
Posts: 5289
-

Re: ABC's 7.30 on Horse Racing Industry

Post by bigfellascott » 19 Oct 2019, 3:49 pm

bladeracer wrote:
bigfellascott wrote:I think you are deluding yourself if you think that you haven't been responsible for pain and suffering of animals in your lifetime, we all have in one way or another (directly or indirectly) just by the mear fact you use an animal to sustain your life/lifestyle you have somewhere along the line caused harm/fear etc - you can try and justify it how you like but you'd be a hypocrite if you think you haven't and thinking just because you didn't directly intentionally cause harm/fear etc doesn't negate that fact. :drinks:

(Do you honestly think that because you killed your fish as quickly as possible after you caught it that somehow that makes you superior or a better person than those who let theirs die slowly in a bucket? You've both caused fear/harm/pain to the animal, yes yours was slightly more humane but the fact still remains you caused suffering to an animal as we all do when we kill them for our benefit (your kidding yourself if you think otherwise).

We've all benefited from the misery and suffering of animals and just because you do it in a "more Humane" way doesn't negate the fact you caused suffering to an animal (we do love to tell ourselves that but it really is a lie at the end of the day) cause no animal wanted to die to just keep us alive hey. :drinks:


Where do you keep getting this view that I feel superior to other people because of the things I believe in? Where did I claim I was this saint you keep confusing me with that has managed to go through life never having caused pain to an animal?

I disagree that killing any animal requires you to inflict pain or suffering upon it. I never said that killing a fish as soon as you can means it suffers no pain or fear, or that it makes you superior to the guy fishing beside you that doesn't. The fishing I did was in The Ord, taking catfish for the Aged Care Centre at the Aboriginal community I was working at, I wasn't fishing for pleasure, although the country, the local people that took me along, and the enormous crocodiles made the experience an unforgettable treasure of memories. Of course the fish experienced pain and anguish while they were on the hook, it was my duty to minimize that to the extent possible. I find it just incredible that you not only disagree with the concept, you seem completely against it on principle.

I have certainly caused harm to animals, that doesn't mean I want to delude myself into believing that is normal or desired, but it definitely reinforces my desire to avoid making the same mistakes again.

It is absolutely possible to eat animals,without causing pain and suffering, but you do have to accept that you have that choice to do so, and to act on it. Such a belief is merely human, nothing more than that. No animal cares what it wanted when it is dead, being dead is not painful or worrying...


What was your method for catching/killing the fish again?
I don't fish because I don't believe fish are unable to experience pain or fear, the occasions that I have fished I kill the fish as soon as possible, not toss it in a bucket to suffocate as seems to be the norm.


Do you think that the aboriginals who used to spear fish felt that they to weren't causing any pain for fear to the fish?.

So what you are saying is that a fish that is pulling against your line is in fact happy and not really in fear of it's life and trying to get away from what it is that is pulling against it? Do you not see you caused fear and suffering and pain to the fish before you so humanely killed it by whatever methods you deemed as humane? Because you say you didn't get any pleasure out of catching it doesn't exonerate you from the fact it suffered before you killed it just like those dairy cows you were telling us about which you pointed out was a disgusting thing to do :unknown:

As I said earlier we have been using and abusing animals since the beginning of time in one way or another for our own benefit and I doubt it will stop any time soon. :drinks:
User avatar
bigfellascott
Lieutenant General
Lieutenant General
 
Posts: 5289
-

Re: ABC's 7.30 on Horse Racing Industry

Post by duncan61 » 19 Oct 2019, 4:04 pm

With you Blade,I did 4 years living on a dairy farm just north of Bunbury and milked every second weekend.The big truck used to come out once a month and the cows that went on the big truck never come back.As it used to come down the lane all the herd would huddle up and try to get behind each other.They knew what a ride in the big truck meant.The grain feed beef you see advertised is our old Friesians that failed to get pregnant after many years of service.One in particular was 88 Cuddles that you could sit on and was tame as but she failed to get pregnant after 12 years and giving us nearly a full tanker of milk on her own so she went on a one way ride.It would be nice to have put her in her own paddock but farms do not work like that.Regards fishing in this day of google and information most anglers ike jime there keepable catch and put on a ice/seawater slurry and carefully release bycatch and over bag fish.Fish feel pressure and light and do not hesitate to slash each other in half so dont go all girly over what fish feel bitch.LOL :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
.22 winchester .22hornet .222 .243 7mm rem mag cbc 12g
User avatar
duncan61
Officer Cadet
Officer Cadet
 
Posts: 1905
Western Australia

Re: ABC's 7.30 on Horse Racing Industry

Post by bladeracer » 19 Oct 2019, 4:11 pm

bigfellascott wrote:You've never seen a lamb suckling from it's mother or a baby rabbit doing the same? Pretty sure that bonding at it's most important point in life. :unknown:


Of course I've seen suckling, but there doesn't seem to be a strong bond at all, as soon as they wean they seem to lose all familiarity with the parents.
Practice Strict Gun Control - Precision Counts!
User avatar
bladeracer
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 12656
Victoria

Re: ABC's 7.30 on Horse Racing Industry

Post by bladeracer » 19 Oct 2019, 4:16 pm

bigfellascott wrote:What was your method for catching/killing the fish again?
I don't fish because I don't believe fish are unable to experience pain or fear, the occasions that I have fished I kill the fish as soon as possible, not toss it in a bucket to suffocate as seems to be the norm.


Do you think that the aboriginals who used to spear fish felt that they to weren't causing any pain for fear to the fish?.

So what you are saying is that a fish that is pulling against your line is in fact happy and not really in fear of it's life and trying to get away from what it is that is pulling against it? Do you not see you caused fear and suffering and pain to the fish before you so humanely killed it by whatever methods you deemed as humane? Because you say you didn't get any pleasure out of catching it doesn't exonerate you from the fact it suffered before you killed it just like those dairy cows you were telling us about which you pointed out was a disgusting thing to do :unknown:

As I said earlier we have been using and abusing animals since the beginning of time in one way or another for our own benefit and I doubt it will stop any time soon. :drinks:


I used a line and hook, then a knife to dispatch them, the locals preferred to hit them with lumps of wood which was just as effective.
Again, where did I make any claim that aboriginals weren't causing pain?

Again, I said the exact opposite of what you're claiming, I stated that a fish is in both pain and fear while on the line, I don't see how I can make that any clearer to you - it's why I don't fish, remember back at the start of your tirade against humane treatment of animals.

It won't stop if people like yourself thrive on cruelty and consider it a necessary part of eating animals.
Practice Strict Gun Control - Precision Counts!
User avatar
bladeracer
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 12656
Victoria

Re: ABC's 7.30 on Horse Racing Industry

Post by bladeracer » 19 Oct 2019, 4:34 pm

duncan61 wrote:With you Blade,I did 4 years living on a dairy farm just north of Bunbury and milked every second weekend.The big truck used to come out once a month and the cows that went on the big truck never come back.As it used to come down the lane all the herd would huddle up and try to get behind each other.They knew what a ride in the big truck meant.The grain feed beef you see advertised is our old Friesians that failed to get pregnant after many years of service.One in particular was 88 Cuddles that you could sit on and was tame as but she failed to get pregnant after 12 years and giving us nearly a full tanker of milk on her own so she went on a one way ride.It would be nice to have put her in her own paddock but farms do not work like that.Regards fishing in this day of google and information most anglers ike jime there keepable catch and put on a ice/seawater slurry and carefully release bycatch and over bag fish.Fish feel pressure and light and do not hesitate to slash each other in half so dont go all girly over what fish feel bitch.LOL :D :D :D :D :D :D :D


Our pair of boys are tight friends, they spend a lot of time with their heads together pushing each other around. Both of them are pretty timid around us though, which I can only assume is something they associate with when we ringed them as calves (they were the only two boys). All the cattle went through the crush as we did vaccinations and tags at the same time. Because of this timidness in these two, Rose is wanting to cut the testes out instead of ringing them this time. I think ringing is the better way, and we gave them pain relief at the time, but it seems they hold some degree of memory of it, so we'll try something else this time. We know these boys have had a good life with us, and now it's time to put them in the freezer and make way for this current crop that are dropping - that's how life works. Neither of us like abattoirs, but sadly the law requires us to deliver them live to an abattoir to be slaughtered and processed, and we can only hope they treat them well while they're there. Rose is wanting me to tan their hides as well.

We're still calving with three left to drop, but it looks like we're seeing 100% success. One of our big girls is a problem and lost both previous calves, if she lost this one the abattoir was looking like her end as well. At $2K apiece we do need to make some return on them. She had the same trouble but we were prepared this time. Some cows experience intense anxiety when they pop out a calf, even after several times. They know that something very big is happening, but they don't know what, or how to deal with it, so they go nuts, and wind up killing the calf. I sat with the calf in the hay shed that night for a couple hours waiting for her to feed it but we had to give up. Rose got up during the night to feed it. In the morning though, mum had another look at the calf when she'd calmed down, decided it was amazing, and became the doting mother we know she is. Last year I went up to a dairy and collected a poddy that they'd taken from a dairy cow. Unfortunately she wouldn't accept it so we ended up skinning hers and wrapping the poddy with the skin. She was clearly confused as could be, but the smell was a strong attachment, and by the end of day two she'd stopped biffing her around and took her to heart.
Practice Strict Gun Control - Precision Counts!
User avatar
bladeracer
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 12656
Victoria

Re: ABC's 7.30 on Horse Racing Industry

Post by Oldbloke » 19 Oct 2019, 8:23 pm

bigfellascott wrote:No doubt you've eaten plenty of animals that have had the same sort of treatment before being processed into food for you and your family to eat. (as we all have and are probably still doing) you can't get away from the fact that animals we eat have been and more than likely are still being mistreated in some way as part of their lifecycle before we consume them in their many end products. I just find your attitude to dairy cows a bit hypocritical when you have consumed other animals that have been through these sorts of processes.

You would have to be delusional if you don't think you've consumed animals that have been treated like this - we all have and no doubt are still doing so in one way or another.

Must be fun being a Meat Chicken hey.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pixGkSFBty0

Some processing of farm animals to eat
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hl6l40N59yE

Looks like humane end to a chickens life
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpUFHnJ3uhQ



Those videos just about put me off my dinner.

It could be done a lot better.
The greatest invention in the history of man is beer.
https://youtu.be/2v3QrUvYj-Y
Member. SFFP, Shooters Union.
SSAA, the powerful gun lobby. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Hunt safe.
User avatar
Oldbloke
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 11192
Victoria

Re: ABC's 7.30 on Horse Racing Industry

Post by Stix » 19 Oct 2019, 8:35 pm

Sarco wrote:Having watched the ABC show, I also was appalled by the treatment of the horses, especially the psycho a'ole f'wit that was so clearly abusing the animals. I am no horse lover and firmly believe that should be eliminated from the high country and other places like Barmah, While they should be humanely euthanized, this s**t is so totally unnecessary.

When it come to racing, it is my belief that anyone who bets on the horses, greyhounds, trots etc has to much money. There is any number of dodgy charities where they can send their money to waste it if that is what they must do.

With the horses, remove the jockeys and the sulky drivers and it may be a fair race. The dogs are a bit harder, as there are just so many ways to bias the results.

Yep...thats where im coming from... :thumbsup:
:drinks:
The man who knows everything, doesnt really know everything...he's just stopped learning...
Stix
Colonel
Colonel
 
Posts: 3675
South Australia

Next

Back to top
 
Return to Firearms related media and politics