Horses culled by SSAA Hunting party

[Blr243]

I’m not too keen to think of this as an insurance job , trying to fool an insurance company would be very very risky. You would not shoot 30 of your best horses and think the insurance money Will b in the bank 28 days later

[Grandadbushy]

Has any body heard any more on the matter?

[Member-Deleted]

I’m not too keen to think of this as an insurance job , trying to fool an insurance company would be very very risky. You would not shoot 30 of your best horses and think the insurance money Will b in the bank 28 days later

Unless the company is in on it. Or unless it's coming out of the SSAA's pocket as "business expenses" to lower tax brackets or just to help a friend.

[animalpest]

mchughcb - unfortunately there are the few shooters that give everyone a bad rap. Lack of experience, a gung ho attitude, ignorance or just plain stupid. And I have seen a few of each.

Training of people that are doing this is important. Otherwise your organisations name is plain mud.

[mchughcb]

If all the SSAA farmer assist shooters had to do the pros training to prevent occurrences like this again what would be the cost and timing for such a program per person?

[Blr243]

If the shooters first priority was to make sure no stock horses were Accidentally shot During there stay , and their second priority was finding some feral animals to shoot , this would never have happened ... I have been on several hunting trips where not a single shot was fired

[Grandadbushy]

In this case animalpest i agree mate ,there are some that aren't worthy of the name ''Hunter, or Pest Controller , That's why i won't shoot properties that have other shooters using them, i'm fortunate i can pick and choose where i am.

[RUGGA]

I don't think farmer assist is operational in the NT, this incident MIGHT be through the pest management branch which is deeper into the organisation....would make avoiding a payout less likely.

From memory it has more assessments to pass before you can participate in shoots.

Being tarred with the same brush as other members always kept me out of clubs. I heard some stupid stories (deliberate shotgunning of stock prob the worst) told with great pride and thought stuff getting teamed up with that.

[animalpest]

"If all the SSAA farmer assist shooters had to do the pros training to prevent occurrences like this again what would be the cost and timing for such a program per person?"

Couldn't say. A pro needs to add his labour as this is his paid employment. Then add his additional costs. And you will also pay for how good he is, ie his reputation.

I am not advocating that everyone be trained to professional levels as this is impossible. My staff undergo 2 years training and that training is ongoing. But training to National Training Standards is simple enough. "Training" your own members with your own training and then saying they are competent is fraught with issues.

I have read some associations even state their accuracy test for hunters is the same as professionals require. It is not.

[mchughcb]

Interesting. I've passed shooting tests for associations and seen many people fail. What does the accuracy test for a pro require for a pass?

[Member-Deleted]

"My staff undergo 2 years training and that training is ongoing. But training to National Training Standards is simple enough. "Training" your own members with your own training and then saying they are competent is fraught with issues.

What sort of training do your staff undergo in those 2 years?

[Grandadbushy]

I think we're getting of the mark here the SSAA are supposed to be very selective on who gets onto the farmer assist , i have been told that if the members aren't happy with you being capable of being on the assist program then you aren't on it , then there is the thing of, you can give all the training in the world to people and if they're not prepared to use common sense then it's all for naught, I just think that there should be a better selection process for the program like long term members and bush members that have proven themselves reliable for such a position on the program not everyone is right for a position no matter how much training you give them, then on the other hand they can be the highest trained, yet be complete idiots and still not be a proper person for the job. On saying that i do think there should be some sort of training like how to identify domestic animals ie collars, bangtailed horses, shod horses, cut mane and other things that differ from domestic to wild animals, a capable shooter would know most of that especially if they had done a lot of bush work, to me i think these blokes hadn't been programed enough for shooting on this property or the aspects of what is required to shoot ferals and found themselves in too deep and that's when they should have pulled the plug without shooting anything as most respectable and competent shooters would have done, which lends itself to them not being capable of carrying out the job in a safe and proper manner.

[Grandadbushy]

I think we're getting of the mark here the SSAA are supposed to be very selective on who gets onto the farmer assist , i have been told that if the members aren't happy with you being capable of being on the assist program then you aren't on it , then there is the thing of, you can give all the training in the world to people and if they're not prepared to use common sense then it's all for naught, I just think that there should be a better selection process for the program like long term members and bush members that have proven themselves reliable for such a position on the program not everyone is right for a position no matter how much training you give them, then on the other hand they can be the highest trained, yet be complete idiots and still not be a proper person for the job. On saying that i do think there should be some sort of training like how to identify domestic animals ie collars, bangtailed horses, shod horses, cut mane and other things that differ from domestic to wild animals, a capable shooter would know most of that especially if they had done a lot of bush work, to me i think these blokes hadn't been programed enough for shooting on this property or the aspects of what is required to shoot ferals and found themselves in too deep and that's when they should have pulled the plug without shooting anything as most respectable and competent shooters would have done, which lends itself to them not being capable of carrying out the job in a safe and proper manner.

[mchughcb]

Well I guess they are going to be the founding members of the farmer desist program.

[Blr243]

It’s sound embarrassing enough that they would want to crawl into a hole and never come out again

[Grandadbushy]

YEP! i think there's going to be a lot of buck passing in the NT SSAA in the near future, bit like the gov at the moment ,may never know who made the decision for that shoot and who went on it

[Blr243]

On the subject of embarrassing mistakes, have I ever shared here the incident where , while doing construction work at a residential address, my wolfhound cross slipped her collar, entered the back yard and killed a little boys pet guinea pig ?

[Member-Deleted]

On the subject of embarrassing mistakes, have I ever shared here the incident where , while doing construction work at a residential address, my wolfhound cross slipped her collar, entered the back yard and killed a little boys pet guinea pig ?

I've never heard the story, but I'm fairly new here.

[Bruiser64]

I would believe that 30 horses could be worth $500k. Killarney Station was owned by the Tapp family from the 1960’s and was only sold by them in 2014. They were very well known breeders of high quality quarter horses that they bred for western sports like cutting. If the new owners continued breeding quarter horses then they would be worth a motza. I went to one of their horse auctions held at Killarney Station about 30 years ago. My ex paid $1500 back then for an unbroken 2 year old gelding. A well bred, well trained cutting horse would sell for big dollars.

This link shows what some of these horses get sold for.

https://www.nutrienequine.com.au/media/ ... esults.pdf

[animalpest]

Two years of training includes "classroom" theory followed by on the job, then more theory and so forth. Qualifications are just part of the process. Training never stops, it just increases in complexity and depth.

I think you are always going to have problems selecting certain members of an association or club for what is a "fun job" shooting animals without personal biases, favouritism, nepotism and cronyism.

Yes, stupid is as stupid does. But training equals knowledge and understanding, as well as being able to fail those that do not get to the required standard. Add experience to the training and it is even better.

The value of work horses can be based on what they cost to select and train. Not what you would or could sell them for.

[Bill]

YEP! i think there's going to be a lot of buck passing in the NT SSAA in the near future, bit like the gov at the moment ,may never know who made the decision for that shoot and who went on it

The 2 idiots have been hounded off Faceache and apparently have received death threats, facebook accounts have been shut down.

The 2 culprits will have their day in court and Id imagine a civil claim will be made against them, I dont see SSAA as being liable here.

[Grandadbushy]

Yes Bill you could be right and it would have been just a bad decision on the part of the ssaa, i dare say the ssaa screening process will step up a notch if they keep the farmer assist program going up there. I don't know what has to be signed or what goes on to be able to take part in a shoot like that but at the end of the day responsibility does land at the feet of the trigger pullers.

[marksman]

just adding to the last couple of posts
farmer assist is not that easy to get into there are many many shooters who look into it do the paper trail and shooting tests never to get a look in,
some have said you need to be part of a certain click to be part of it, l know of a few guys who put their names down did the shooting tests for it that are right in there as club members and could not get a look in and as a person doing farmer assist you are under the guidance and management of the ssaa, members participating in this program are covered by the association's $20 million public liability insurance so the ssaa will be liable if these guys have done the wrong thing,
l am not saying they haven't but l'd rather wait and see what comes out in the wash

personally l have always shook my head at the guys who l know that have applied for it, usually looking for more properties to hunt
the ssaa is ok for ranges and target shooting but l have met a lot of talkers at the ssaa ranges and not many walkers as far as hunting goes,
you do get a few just not many

[Bill]

marksman Im not sure SSAA is liable here, property has been damaged and that would fall under the crimes act. It wasnt 1 horse shot it was 30, this wasnt accidental.

No doubt they will put forward stupidity as their defence but I cant see how their reckless action don't end up as a criminal conviction.

[Oldbloke]

not everyone is right for a position no matter how much training you give them, then on the other hand they can be the highest trained, yet be complete idiots and still not be a proper person for the job.

Or choose to ignore the training. And make a risky decision.

For about 4 years now I've been chasing fellow deer and am yet to shoot one. (the area is challenging, thick bush and not a heap of deer. But not far away from home but for various reasons I havent been out much over that time but that's changing)

To my point, the reason I have not pulled the trigger for 3 reasons.
On 1 occasion I was carrying my 223, so not legal in Vic.
On at least 3 or 4 occassions the shot was doable but less than ideal.
1 was on a minor road.

My point being that there are plenty ("of hunters") out there that would have put 3 or 4 fallow in the freezer. I havent.

[mchughcb]

Two years of training includes "classroom" theory followed by on the job, then more theory and so forth. Qualifications are just part of the process. Training never stops, it just increases in complexity and depth.

I think you are always going to have problems selecting certain members of an association or club for what is a "fun job" shooting animals without personal biases, favouritism, nepotism and cronyism.

Yes, stupid is as stupid does. But training equals knowledge and understanding, as well as being able to fail those that do not get to the required standard. Add experience to the training and it is even better.

The value of work horses can be based on what they cost to select and train. Not what you would or could sell them for.

Very interesting. I'm really interested though in the accuracy test. What is it and what do you need to pass it?

[duncan61]

The accuracy test is to put 5 shots in a row in to an 80 mm circle that is drawn on a kangaroo head.I have done it but it took 2 goes as I had not set my scope right and I choked and dropped a shot.I am with Animal pest on this.A bloke I played tennis with let some guys on his hill block to get the pigs and they head shot 3 Black Angus calfs that were bedded down.The scenario I am getting is the shooters may have been after donkeys and they have come across station stock and gone for it.It is not an insurance scam.

[Grandadbushy]

Well Oldbloke that's practical and moral thinking mate that sort of thinking would have gone a long way with those 2 blokes in the NT. There has been some good posts on here but the story isn't done and dusted as yet there'll be toing and frowing from the police, manager, ssaa , insurance and the 2 trigger mens legal crew so there's a long way to go yet and there'll be a lot of hypothetical inuendo from all walks of life, forums included but it is going to be interesting to see how this case pans out but either way it's going to end badly for someone , unless it's set down as one big accident because they had permission to be there and they were in a strange area don't be surprised that that could happen and the cost of the horses may well be covered by insurance who knows, stranger things have happened.

[Blr243]

When I lived in the Kimberley’s I considered the fishing bloody sensational but the hunting limited. Never saw a pig. We only shot donkeys and there were lots of them. I don’t think even an inexperienced shooter could mistake horses for donkeys. Their coloration and size is significantly different...long before most people are given theiR first opportunity to shoot a rifle They know the difference.....even before kids learn to read they are shown pictures of different animals at home and at school ......no matter how this turns out in the end , it’s a monumental stuff up .....I can understand that people on the land , all over Australia are disgusted and angry at the situation .....2000 miles from the scene I’m almost embarrassed to be a hunter at the moment .....ringers in the Northern Territory are as close to their horses as we are to our pet dogs

[mchughcb]

The accuracy test is to put 5 shots in a row in to an 80 mm circle that is drawn on a kangaroo head.I have done it but it took 2 goes as I had not set my scope right and I choked and dropped a shot.I am with Animal pest on this.A bloke I played tennis with let some guys on his hill block to get the pigs and they head shot 3 Black Angus calfs that were bedded down.The scenario I am getting is the shooters may have been after donkeys and they have come across station stock and gone for it.It is not an insurance scam.

Okay, target ID is another thing.

Can you clarify?

What distances, and support for the rifle and in what sort of time?