Horses culled by SSAA Hunting party

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Re: Horses culled by SSAA Hunting party

Post by trekin » 30 Sep 2020, 12:47 pm

mchughcb wrote:
duncan61 wrote:The accuracy test is to put 5 shots in a row in to an 80 mm circle that is drawn on a kangaroo head.I have done it but it took 2 goes as I had not set my scope right and I choked and dropped a shot.I am with Animal pest on this.A bloke I played tennis with let some guys on his hill block to get the pigs and they head shot 3 Black Angus calfs that were bedded down.The scenario I am getting is the shooters may have been after donkeys and they have come across station stock and gone for it.It is not an insurance scam.


Okay, target ID is another thing.

Can you clarify?

What distances, and support for the rifle and in what sort of time?

Different States will have different requirements. I was, for a while, some years ago, an assessor for the then Q DPI (QLD Department of Primary Industries), who accedited pro shooters. The requirement was 5 rounds into 75mm, origanally a silhouette of a roos head with the brain box messuring 75mm, at a 100 meters, no time limit and from what ever position the shooter normally used. I did the assesments in the field, with the shooter using his own rig, and rifle. SSAA, of course had a different spin on how the shooter was to achieve this, on a range, with the asessor's rifle and usually from the standing unsupported position.
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Re: Horses culled by SSAA Hunting party

Post by Grandadbushy » 30 Sep 2020, 2:10 pm

Yeah trekin i think it's still the same up here, the flaws i see with the ssaa type is i know quiet a few blokes that could shoot the eye out of a needle with a lean or rest ie bench, car door or tree but couldn't hit the side of a shed free standing, i've never saw or heard of too many pro shooters free shooting most of their shooting is from a vehicle although at times they would use a tree where possible but not saying they never free shoot.
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Re: Horses culled by SSAA Hunting party

Post by RoginaJack » 30 Sep 2020, 5:02 pm

Sorry but I'm confused with the above posts re the SSAA Farmer's Assist program.

As I understand, the farmer enters the job details, number of shooters required and conditions, etc onto the SSAA Farmers Assist site. Members them apply for the job etc and it is the farmer alone that interviews and ultimately selects the applicants.
The SSAA does not recommend or suggest any particular person(s) or group.
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Re: Horses culled by SSAA Hunting party

Post by animalpest » 30 Sep 2020, 5:16 pm

Every State has different requirements.

In WA it is a 75mm circle, in SA it is 80mm. In the ACT it is smaller, about 55x65mm from memory (I passed this one first try at 300m).

5 consecutive shots at 100m at night using the rifle you will shoot with and over your vehicle rest. On the line is fail. Not hard.
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Re: Horses culled by SSAA Hunting party

Post by Oldbloke » 30 Sep 2020, 5:26 pm

Grandadbushy wrote:Well Oldbloke that's practical and moral thinking mate that sort of thinking would have gone a long way with those 2 blokes in the NT. There has been some good posts on here but the story isn't done and dusted as yet there'll be toing and frowing from the police, manager, ssaa , insurance and the 2 trigger mens legal crew so there's a long way to go yet and there'll be a lot of hypothetical inuendo from all walks of life, forums included but it is going to be interesting to see how this case pans out but either way it's going to end badly for someone , unless it's set down as one big accident because they had permission to be there and they were in a strange area don't be surprised that that could happen and the cost of the horses may well be covered by insurance who knows, stranger things have happened.



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Re: Horses culled by SSAA Hunting party

Post by Blr243 » 30 Sep 2020, 6:25 pm

I’m nervous about cattle that may be bedded down in the long grass day or night. I don’t take shots at running game And I use v max. That way even on a week long hunting trip every bullet has been accounted for , and I know I’m not going to get any phone calls
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Re: Horses culled by SSAA Hunting party

Post by Grandadbushy » 30 Sep 2020, 7:13 pm

G'day RoginaJack, Mate who does the testing of accuracy and deem the shooter proper and acceptable to be a member of the farmers assist program , surely farmers wouldn't select a shooter who is a complete stranger to them, the ssaa must have some input into who is deemed acceptable for farmers to choose shooters, after all it's ssaa that developed the program. just asking that's all
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Re: Horses culled by SSAA Hunting party

Post by marksman » 30 Sep 2020, 7:35 pm

so has anyone heard that any charges have been laid yet :unknown:
here is the target used for farmer assist, it is shot without aid, bipod, benchrest ect... usually prone and tested by an RO who signs the target
it would not be ethical for the ssaa to use a roo head as a target being a protected species in australia

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Re: Horses culled by SSAA Hunting party

Post by animalpest » 30 Sep 2020, 7:56 pm

"It would not be ethical for SSAA to use a roo head as a target as they are a protected species"

Haha haha that's a joke isn't it?

But you are having SSAA members go on a list to shoot animals, including kangaroos!! And they do!

If that is the thinking, then Farmer Assist would only be for feral animals, which my understanding is that it is not.

So where is it stated that the SSAA test is only from prone?

Most pro shooters are kangaroo shooters only - they shoot only from their vehicle. Some pro shooters shoot from vehicles, walking, hunting, aerial culling a variety of species in differing scenarios.

A professional shooter is someone who makes their primary income from that work is my definition.
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Re: Horses culled by SSAA Hunting party

Post by marksman » 30 Sep 2020, 9:11 pm

animalpest wrote:"It would not be ethical for SSAA to use a roo head as a target as they are a protected species"

Haha haha that's a joke isn't it?

But you are having SSAA members go on a list to shoot animals, including kangaroos!! And they do!

If that is the thinking, then Farmer Assist would only be for feral animals, which my understanding is that it is not.

So where is it stated that the SSAA test is only from prone?

Most pro shooters are kangaroo shooters only - they shoot only from their vehicle. Some pro shooters shoot from vehicles, walking, hunting, aerial culling a variety of species in differing scenarios.

A professional shooter is someone who makes their primary income from that work is my definition.


nobody said ssaa farmer assist would not be culling roo's after getting the proper permits ect...
l said they would not use a roo head as a target and put up the real target that is used by farmer assist :wtf:

nobody said you can only shoot the ssaa farmer assist target prone
l said it is usually shot prone without aids eg... bipod, benchrest ect.. lets get it right, we are talking about ssaa farmer assist here

who says most pro shooters are kangaroo shooters only :unknown: time to talk about what you know not what you think ;)
l know several pro shooters who shoot as pro's as a hobby, there really is not enough work to be able to have your primary income as being a pro shooter,
the pay is very lucrative but its not a 9 to 5 job it can be very up and down in getting the work

l also know a few guys who shoot roo's for the knackery for a living, it is there primary income but they are not pro shooters :unknown:
they work for the knackery not for themselves as a pro shooter

l work for a pro shooter, we cull all sorts of pests including horses, in Vic it is part of being able to get a pro shooters ticket you need to be making money from shooting but that does not mean it has to be your primary income, to most people the insurance is too prohibitive for the amount you can earn
the majority of farmers will not be able to afford to employ a pro shooter so they will get someone like me to act as an agent to assist the holder of an authority to control wildlife, and yes l do it for a few farmers, not a pro and not ssaa farmer assist

l hope this clears that up
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Re: Horses culled by SSAA Hunting party

Post by mchughcb » 30 Sep 2020, 9:13 pm

animalpest wrote:Every State has different requirements.

In WA it is a 75mm circle, in SA it is 80mm. In the ACT it is smaller, about 55x65mm from memory (I passed this one first try at 300m).

5 consecutive shots at 100m at night using the rifle you will shoot with and over your vehicle rest. On the line is fail. Not hard.


That's very interesting because the last accreditation I had to do was nine shots in a row. 3 from prone at 100m, 3 kneeling from 75m and three offhand from 50m. No use of slings, use of telescopic was allowed and you had to shoot 270Win and above. The target was the birchwood casey heart lung diagram so whilst it was 150mm diameter, you could still get inside the circle and not hit the vital organs and fail. You had to get 8 out of 9 scoring shots. Average pass rate was between 20and 30% and that is backed up statistically by several hundred participants.

I think its entirely possible that I could pass shooting 5 shots into 75mm using a car rest at 100m with some practice but I'd guess I'd have to take shooting from a car again which I have not done in almost 20 years.
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Re: Horses culled by SSAA Hunting party

Post by mchughcb » 30 Sep 2020, 9:22 pm

trekin wrote:
mchughcb wrote:
duncan61 wrote:The accuracy test is to put 5 shots in a row in to an 80 mm circle that is drawn on a kangaroo head.I have done it but it took 2 goes as I had not set my scope right and I choked and dropped a shot.I am with Animal pest on this.A bloke I played tennis with let some guys on his hill block to get the pigs and they head shot 3 Black Angus calfs that were bedded down.The scenario I am getting is the shooters may have been after donkeys and they have come across station stock and gone for it.It is not an insurance scam.


Okay, target ID is another thing.

Can you clarify?

What distances, and support for the rifle and in what sort of time?

Different States will have different requirements. I was, for a while, some years ago, an assessor for the then Q DPI (QLD Department of Primary Industries), who accedited pro shooters. The requirement was 5 rounds into 75mm, origanally a silhouette of a roos head with the brain box messuring 75mm, at a 100 meters, no time limit and from what ever position the shooter normally used. I did the assesments in the field, with the shooter using his own rig, and rifle. SSAA, of course had a different spin on how the shooter was to achieve this, on a range, with the asessor's rifle and usually from the standing unsupported position.


Interesting. Trying to shoot 5 shots into 75mm or 2.5MoA at 100m offhand is not that easy with a hunting rifle with any calibre. Tried it many times myself.
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Re: Horses culled by SSAA Hunting party

Post by animalpest » 30 Sep 2020, 11:19 pm

Ok, let's get some perspective here - a pro shooter is a professional. It is not working for a pro, it is not doing some shooting on the odd weekend - it is your profession, your vocation, your job. What you are trained, experienced and qualified to do. It is not your hobby or your weekend work, it is your profession, like an accountant, a scientist or a mechanic.

Insurance costs are, like every business expense, a cost that you bear. It accounts for 1.5 to 2% of my business costs. A necessary evil, just like fuel, equipment losses, breakdown and everything else.

So the training discussion so far has been about the accuracy test for (primarily) roo shooter licencing. Note, it is not anything more than an accuracy test.

I have been testing pro roo shooters for years and have tested hundreds. The results will astound you but that is another's story. And I have first hand accounts that some testers have simply punched holes in a target with a pencil and charged based on how good the target is).

So let's look at a National Unit of Competency - AHCPMG304 Use of firearms to humanely destroy animals. (It is just one of 13+ units needed to be competent in vertebrate pest control).

This unit does not assess you by you shooting at paper targets. You must demonstrate that you humanely shoot real live animals in the field. And also to know and be able to demonstrate anatomy, aiming points, suitable choice of firearms, ammunition, equipment, safety parameters, (NOTE) map locations and boundary for shoot and so forth.

Let's note that again - the first competency of the unit is to be able to "map locations and boundary for shoot". So the SSAA training may not cover the National Training competencies. That could void their insurance cover and they may well be liable for their members actions as they have not provided training and instructions to anything other than their own (potentially inadequate) training and instructions which are less than established national training standards.

I have seen too many paper punchers that cannot humanely and consistently be able to humanely shoot animals, so I concur with the units requirements that to prove competency you must demonstrate this with real animals. A paper target with no time limit just doesn't cut the real world.

(I was asked what does the 2 yr training consist of? Well the answer is real world shooting with mentoring and not just paper punching at a range!).

Oh, I should add that I am also on National Training committees (Industry Reference Committees as the expert on Animal Control and Regulation) that consider these very requirements and the specific words and unit outcomes that demonstrate competencies.

So, an organization can go with their own "In house" course and assessment (on paper targets at a range- Range Officers assessments are not subject to external review) or go with a National Unit of Competency that is subject to State and National government training regulations and auditing that is real world tested. If you go with the National units of Competency, you must show "access and equity" to all and be subject to the requirements of a Registered Training Organisation (RTO) including the complaints and other processes that the SSAA training doesn't do.

Which one would you trust?
Last edited by animalpest on 01 Oct 2020, 1:26 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Horses culled by SSAA Hunting party

Post by mchughcb » 01 Oct 2020, 12:24 am

I don't the right answer it seems to be the professionals doing the National Unit of Competency that is subject to State and National government training regulations and auditing that is real world tested. I'm only asking because if the amateurs do it for free then in my experience people don't worry about professionals because they can't afford it.
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Re: Horses culled by SSAA Hunting party

Post by eddievic » 01 Oct 2020, 8:11 am

Farmers are not rich but they are tight arses or realists depending on how you look at it, a hobby farmer won't be able to afford paying the services of a pro shooter.

But plenty of pro shooters around, for farmers who have legal liability to consider, or government departments. Also i doubt the ppl doing aerial cull will be the local good fella paper punchers. In short i think incidents like this will give the pro shooters more work. Unfortunately for most of us.
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Re: Horses culled by SSAA Hunting party

Post by duncan61 » 01 Oct 2020, 9:45 am

mchughcb.You appear to be geniunely interested so I will share more.I started in the Kangaroo industry just at the time the testing came in to being and was part of the trial.The World health organisation WHO started to take an interest as Kangaroo meat was being shipped to Eastern European countries.To demonstrate the Field operators were competent Here in the west we set up to do a hygeine and meat handling course and an accuracy test.I put a few buddies through it as I used helpers.It was a while ago and was as Animal pest says 75 mm and on the line was a fail.This was a West Australian thing and I have no idea about other states.It cleaned up the image of cullers as movies like Razor back and Wolf creek have given us a portrail of blood thirsty murderers.I was on the first course and was suprised that there were about 3-5 proshooters and the other 30 were property owners that did their own culling and wished to sell the carcasses.To remove a carcass from the property for sale you need a Regulation 6 licence to sell and in certain areas you need a damage 5 licence as well.The dumb part is you can drop and rot all you want and no one cares.All this is specific to where I used to operate.I still have all the licences but have nowhere I can sell a carcass hope that helps a bit
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Re: Horses culled by SSAA Hunting party

Post by mchughcb » 01 Oct 2020, 10:42 am

I kind of liked Razorback when I lived in WA. Arkie Whitely boobies are immortalized forever in the shower scene. I remember when I was working with a pro roo shooter out of Onslow in the 80s we used to recite the Bennie and Dicko banter. Anyhow, thanks for confirming the accuracy tests. They are seem to be less onerous for a WA pro than they are for the Victorian associations accuracy tests.
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Re: Horses culled by SSAA Hunting party

Post by marksman » 01 Oct 2020, 11:56 am

just adding to what has already been put up animalpest

it has already been posted that different areas will have different laws ect... l suspect this may be one of those times

in Vic if you shoot roos for a living you are a not a "pro shooter" you are a "roo shooter", or should l say a "roo harvester"
that's not to say that you cant be a ticketed pro shooter and be a roo harvester at the same time, of course you can but shooting roos in Vic does not mean you are a pro shooter https://djpr.vic.gov.au/game-hunting/ka ... harvesting, l dont think it makes you a pro shooter anywhere, just my opinion
to be either a pro shooter or roo harvester you have to be upfront with your insurance that costs in excess of $5000 per year for a pro, the roo harvester has the opportunity to make a living from culling roo's commercially, for a pro that can be different

its done in Vic all above board and done using the national code of practice for humane shooting of kangaroo and wallabies for commercial purposes

to be able to be a roo harvester you need to do the firearm proficiency training held by the ssaa
ssaa (Vic) delivers a commercial harvesting of kangaroos proficiency course
https://ssaavic.com.au/education/conser ... editation/

as well as completing the game harvester skillset training
https://training.gov.au/Training/Details/AMPSS00018

the culling l do working volunteering for farmers to act on their behalf is done with an authority to control wildlife as a volunteer avoiding the insurance cost
this may be what was required by these 2 blokes, l'm not sure
the work l do for a pro is covered by the pros insurance

l have never heard of any where that you are tested for firearm proficiency by shooting an animal, its always done shooting paper

l am unsure of how the pest control regs/laws are in NT but l am certain that the ssaa lawyers and insurers would be on top of amount of training you would need to be able to cull animals using their name to be able to do it,
l do believe the ssaa will try and throw these guys under the bus if they can to distance themselves from the bad press
but that is because l dont think much of the ssaa and could l be wrong :unknown:
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Re: Horses culled by SSAA Hunting party

Post by RoginaJack » 01 Oct 2020, 4:01 pm

Hi GrandDadBushy

Great to hear from You and to answer your Questions.
Accuracy testing is carried out at a SSAA range under the supervision of the Range Officer.
Rifles - Centrefire at 100metres and rimfire at 50 meters. The 5 shots must group within the 80mm of the assessment area, ie the black bullseye and be signed off by the Range Officer and SSAA member.
The SSAA only provides the platform for farmers/landowners to list jobs on the Farmers Assist Program seeking assistance from members. When members apply for jobs, a resume listing experience, past jobs, references etc would be forwarded to the farmer.
It goes without saying the members must agree and abide by all rules and regulations - safe handling of firearms, humane culling of feral animals/birds, etc plus all instructions and directions issued by the farmer.
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Re: Horses culled by SSAA Hunting party

Post by mchughcb » 01 Oct 2020, 4:35 pm

duncan61 wrote:It cleaned up the image of cullers as movies like Razor back and Wolf creek have given us a portrail of blood thirsty murderers


Then along comes Mystery Rd. Poor old pro roo shooter was just drug dealing on the side because things were rough and he gets head shot at 600 yards with a 243Win 4x32 scope, rested off a tree trunk :lol:
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Re: Horses culled by SSAA Hunting party

Post by deanp100 » 01 Oct 2020, 4:43 pm

mchughcb wrote:I kind of liked Razorback when I lived in WA. Arkie Whitely boobies are immortalized forever in the shower scene. I remember when I was working with a pro roo shooter out of Onslow in the 80s we used to recite the Bennie and Dicko banter. Anyhow, thanks for confirming the accuracy tests. They are seem to be less onerous for a WA pro than they are for the Victorian associations accuracy tests.

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Re: Horses culled by SSAA Hunting party

Post by Member-Deleted » 01 Oct 2020, 4:48 pm

mchughcb wrote:
duncan61 wrote:It cleaned up the image of cullers as movies like Razor back and Wolf creek have given us a portrail of blood thirsty murderers


Then along comes Mystery Rd. Poor old pro roo shooter was just drug dealing on the side because things were rough and he gets head shot at 600 yards with a 243Win 4x32 scope, rested off a tree trunk :lol:
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https://youtu.be/OBjjJO8zjFs


While a good movie, I'd be very interested in knowing what the capacity of those revolvers are XD
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Re: Horses culled by SSAA Hunting party

Post by mchughcb » 01 Oct 2020, 4:54 pm

Oh jesus, I lost count after 20 from the first two revolvers.
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Re: Horses culled by SSAA Hunting party

Post by Member-Deleted » 01 Oct 2020, 5:10 pm

mchughcb wrote:Oh jesus, I lost count after 20 from the first two revolvers.


Hahaha, also running the actions of the bolt guns without a single case ejecting :p.
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Re: Horses culled by SSAA Hunting party

Post by duncan61 » 01 Oct 2020, 5:33 pm

Noooooo.I have hijacked the thread.I liked the origional django movies with Franco nero.He shoots 3 rounds with his machine gun at a 45 degree angle and 5 horsemen fall off
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Re: Horses culled by SSAA Hunting party

Post by Grandadbushy » 01 Oct 2020, 5:55 pm

Thanks RoginaJack mate i just wasn't sure how it paned out with the way it was run, it sounds pretty straight forward thought
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Re: Horses culled by SSAA Hunting party

Post by RoginaJack » 01 Oct 2020, 8:30 pm

Yep,GranDadBushy, that's what I think too, because after all as Licensed Firearm owners and Hunters we're supposed to be sensible adults. :)
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Re: Horses culled by SSAA Hunting party

Post by Grandadbushy » 01 Oct 2020, 9:34 pm

Totally agree RoginaJack mate :thumbsup: and i'll probably get shouted down here but there is no room for complacency or denial in cases like this otherwise it leaves too many grey areas then comes the loss of trust toward shooters and the slope becomes steeper to retain practical gun laws :thumbsup: This case has to be treated with some sort of respect whether it be an accident on the shooters part or not enough information on the farmers and ssaa parts, as you said us shooters should have the smarts to own guns and revert to a be safe and responsible for both property and animal, strategy, when being not too sure of the situation and i think that is inbuilt into all competent shooters unfortunately the odd couple fall through the cracks but that's the way of everything these days :thumbsup:
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Re: Horses culled by SSAA Hunting party

Post by animalpest » 01 Oct 2020, 11:49 pm

Marksman - call it what you like, roo harvesters or whatever does not make you a professional.

A professional works in their profession. Simply being paid for a few bucks a month does not make you a professional.

If you never heard of anyone having to show competency other than shooting at paper only demonstrates that you are not aware of courses that require more. They exist as the course requires you to demonstrate you can humanely shoot animals, not shoot a piece of paper. And they are entirely different as anyone with experience in target shooting on a range as well as field shooting of animals can attest.

There is a lot more to pro shooting than kangaroos.

Recently I had a call at 4.00pm on Friday. Road train crashed and rolled full of cattle. So there will be wounded, dead, cattle thrashing about, others that are wounded and running around, all to be dealt with in amongst Fire brigade, Police, paramedics, rangers, and others. Forget training on paper targets.

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Re: Horses culled by SSAA Hunting party

Post by mchughcb » 02 Oct 2020, 12:58 am

What calibre did you use for humane dispatch?
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